Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

[Andy]

In a normal division the habs don't make the playoffs this year, Tampa, Florida, Toronto, Boston. Not sure if the Jets do, their division is weak, Edmonton probably does. So playing against bad teams the habs squeaked into the playoffs. The team is doing well in the playoffs but, based on their regular season, they do not deserve to be there. Team is built for the playoffs but we'll see if they make it in 2022, they should if they play the system they are playing now, and they may play harder if they need to.

Edmonton sucks LOL

 

[BLONG7]

dude he missed the playoffs 4 years in a row
He has 2 regular players in the lineup that he drafted in 9 years
The player that save his ass was drafted in 2005.
We needed a canadian division to barely make the playoffs.

I mean what's positive with his lineup? No 70 points scorer since his arrival I mean. Took him years to find top centers , still hasnt found a top LHD . Took him 5 years to find a backup for Price.

Man if you think his tenure is good enough for another extension , then no wonder why we have no stars in montreal.

It's as plain as the nose on his face...........and yet...

 

[dcyhabs]

Anderson provides skills the team needs, but he's being paid way more, and longer, than a 30 point scorer who plays a physical style that will probably age badly and produce injuries. Byron is being paid way more than your typical 20 point player. There aren't many good contracts on the team, some ELCs, Toffoli, Edmundson, maybe, Petry's is fair. Team is doing well in these playoffs, we'll see how it goes agains Vegas/Colorado, but upcoming years could be rough, especially as guys go off ELC.

 

[BLONG7]

Anderson provides skills the team needs, but he's being paid way more, and longer, than a 30 point scorer who plays a physical style that will probably age badly and produce injuries. Byron is being paid way more than your typical 20 point player. There aren't many good contracts on the team, some ELCs, Toffoli, Edmundson, maybe, Petry's is fair. Team is doing well in these playoffs, we'll see how it goes agains Vegas/Colorado, but upcoming years could be rough, especially as guys go off ELC.

Our our most overpaid player, has quit on the team and is in hiding.........if we are going to talk about guys taking cap space they don't deserve let's not forget the prince, Drouin...

 

[dcyhabs]

Edmonton sucks LOL

They do, but their record was way better than the habs this year. I didn't compare other teams' records but at a glance I think they would have been in the playoffs with normal divisions, though they might not have had the same record with those divisions. We'll find out next round and next year how weak the north division teams are. Refs are relatively unbiased when Canadian teams play each other, they'll help Expansion Tampa, moved Colorado, expansion Vegas, and shaky fan base Islanders who may have revenue changes if they win unlike teams in Canada that will get fans regardless. The habs won't go far if the big slow defence starts getting called for hits and cross checks, or if faster teams start skating around them.

 

[Habs Halifax]

So you missed the part where Bergevin called for goaltender interference? Don't be ridiculous, a 9 year GM paired with a months-long coach has a LOT of input on what happens with the team. C'mon man.

He's not perfect yes. Emotional at times. That to me does not indicate he is terrible at everything

 

[Habs Halifax]

He's an idiot. Do you think the Habs make the playoffs next year?

Not an idiot.

Don't know cause we need to see what is done this off season

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Our our most overpaid player, has quit on the team and is in hiding.........if we are going to talk about guys taking cap space they don't deserve let's not forget the prince, Drouin...

We have no idea why he’s gone so quit on the team is an odd statement.

 

[Kriss E]

Well, considering how long he lasted during the first half of his tenure, I think it's pretty unrealistic to believe he's going anywhere if he wins a cup.... ;-)

Even if he doesn't win, strong chance he's back. That's not what I'm discussing. I'm talking about what should happen, not what will.

I find it kind of funny that I"m "defending" MB, but honestly, if he wins a cup, what makes you think you know more than he does? That's a hubris on the level of the "Sublime Maestro" OP. I have not been a fan for years, but earlier this season when they were on a tear, I thought to myself, "he's had a decent off season".

He had a good off season, all things considered. Still, he built a pretty slow team and a defense that is fitted for 90s hockey. With the brilliance of Price, they got through the Leafs. The next round, I don't care how impressive the Habs were, the Jets looked incredibly bad. They had like 11 shots through two periods in their do-or-die game...It was pathetic. We had some luck with Tavares getting crushed in game 1, and then Scheifele being completely dumb getting himself suspended for 4 games on top of them losing a top 4D and Stastny clearly also injured.
Good on the Habs. They started clicking at the right time and got some fortunate bounces their way.
Hopefully they can continue their cinderella run but you cannot ignore the fact if you remove COVID, the Habs would not have been in the POs last season, or this one. It would have been the 5th year we miss the POs in a row, 5th in 6 years.

I've seen all the warts in the first half of MB's tenure, believe me. I went round and round with Jaffy years ago. That being said, I'm willing to concede that it is possible for a GM to learn on the job. Whether the moves he's made the past couple years were just dumb luck, or a demonstration of one of my favorite axioms "nothing focuses the mind like a gun to the head",... the team is decent now. As I stated earlier, he finally canned SL and then ..... in one of the ballsiest moves..... sacks Clode for DD midseason. This may have been one of his master strokes if he is indeed a sublime maestro ;-) As you say, if we take the "body of work" of the second part of his tenure, it's clearly on a better trajectory than the first. Where it goes from here, we'll have to wait and see. I'm sure he'll be with us for a couple more years, so, you'll have your chance to evaluate the post-pandemic record and the staying power of this current roster.

Ballsiest move? It was out of desperation. He admitted his last card was to fire Waite too as we found out. Nothing ballsy about it, and it lead to no different result. We looked no better during the season, Price didn't do better after Waite. The team didn't play better after Julien.
We are on a 7 game hot streak, people seem to have lost sight of this. It's awesome that we're hitting that stride in the POs, but it means f*** all if we just end up losing to Vegas/Colorado.

People are talking like coming out of the North division is our Stanley Cup.
All this is showing is how little people believed in the Habs so now that they've done well it's a stroke of genius.

I will go on record saying, I think our D are going to get hemmed in our zone and CP will have to stand on his head to go any farther. Vegas is a faster, heavier team than the previous two rounds and I just don't think the current D lineup has the speed to do anything other than play box and hope CP is in God mode. If they exceed my expectations, I'll gladly say I was wrong. If I'm not wrong, that will expose MB's main problem in my view (still) is his aversion to PMD, which will in turn argue he doesn't know how to build a team. Maybe he'll learn though if they get bounced. Or,.. maybe I'll have to admit I was wrong. In a week or so, we should know.

I'll be happy to admit he was a genius if we win the cup. But right now, we beat a Leafs team who's been notorious for choking in 1st round, and a team who only had 4 pts more than us with three important guys for them missing. So, let's pump the breaks a bit.

 

[417]

Anderson provides skills the team needs, but he's being paid way more, and longer, than a 30 point scorer who plays a physical style that will probably age badly and produce injuries. Byron is being paid way more than your typical 20 point player. There aren't many good contracts on the team, some ELCs, Toffoli, Edmundson, maybe, Petry's is fair. Team is doing well in these playoffs, we'll see how it goes agains Vegas/Colorado, but upcoming years could be rough, especially as guys go off ELC.

Simple solution...

stop worrying about his salary.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Anderson provides skills the team needs, but he's being paid way more, and longer, than a 30 point scorer who plays a physical style that will probably age badly and produce injuries. Byron is being paid way more than your typical 20 point player. There aren't many good contracts on the team, some ELCs, Toffoli, Edmundson, maybe, Petry's is fair. Team is doing well in these playoffs, we'll see how it goes agains Vegas/Colorado, but upcoming years could be rough, especially as guys go off ELC.

Anderson was on pace for 27 goals over a full season and provides size and speed. Right now I’d give him that contract again, no problem. Later on? Yeah, odds are he’ll regress at some point but for now I’m very happy with the acquisition.

 

[Habs Halifax]

"Idiot" is harsh, he doesn't seem like a genius but many of his recent moves have been good and the defence looks good when penalties aren't being called. I'd say the habs need someone to provide vision and stop Bergevin from trading young, cheap guys for old, expensive guys.

And some others have the nerve to say nobody is calling him an idiot or hate him.

To the last point, where is Bergevin trading young cheap guys for old expensive ones? Got examples? Or are you afraid he does this from now into the future?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Anderson was on pace for 27 goals over a full season and provides size and speed. Right now I’d give him that contract again, no problem. Later on? Yeah, odds are he’ll regress at some point but for now I’m very happy with the acquisition.

Agreed. $5.5M AAV from age 26-32 for a skating powerforward who can score goals is nothing to be worried about. I can't believe some are trying to use this as a negative.

Might be different if it was 7 years from 30-36

 

[Wats]

I think we've run the cycle on the previous 4-5 years.

It's a different team today than it was 4-5 years ago.

Not sure how productive that conversation can get at this point.

The conversation is not how different the roster/team is compared to 4-5 years ago, every team is different. It's whether you ignore the state/losing of the organization because they won 2 rounds last 3 weeks:

They have 128 wins in the last 4 seasons (over 291 games) - 22nd in NHL
They have 213 wins in the last 6 season (over 455 games) - 24th in NHL

There has been very little in terms of draft success/development success (especially compared to rest of NHL) and their key roster players are around mid-30s (Price, Weber, Petry = 25mil). Maybe Romanov/Caufield/Kotkaniemi change that but as we saw with Galchenyuk/Mete/DLR/Poehling hype, it takes time for players to settle.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

And some others have the nerve to say nobody is calling him an idiot or hate him.

To the last point, where is Bergevin trading young cheap guys for old expensive ones? Got examples? Or are you afraid he does this from now into the future?

It’s been this fear forever. That MB will trade our 1sts, our top prospects and so on. Yes, we traded sergachev but drouin isn’t old.

Other than that, it’s just people assuming the worst. MB is generally conservative if anything.

 

[Andy]

Anderson's salary is fine.

 

[BenchBrawl]

That's the point you seem to be missing...

Results in a highly competitive environment are always subject to razor thin margins.

Considering results alone is a poor way to assess anything other than the result.

You can do the wrong things, and get a good result.
You can do the right things, and get a bad result.

Hence why some can enjoy the ride without needing to gloss over all the poor decisions. MB was the same GM (as far as decision-making) wether we won/loss the last two series.

If he wins a cup, he gets that title, and all the acclaim that goes with it... Just like cup winning head coach Jean Perron.

And how do you evaluate the quality of a decision outside of results? Can you see the circularity?

And if you want to escape the circularity by looking at moves in isolation, I already did that in my "Bergevin won all his major trades" thread, and was criticized for not looking at the team holistically.

See the paradox and moving goal posts?

 

[Habs Halifax]

It’s been this fear forever. That MB will trade our 1sts, our top prospects and so on. Yes, we traded sergachev but drouin isn’t old.

Other than that, it’s just people assuming the worst. MB is generally conservative if anything.

You see it like I do. He's very conservative and he's protected his youth well while also stock piling picks. He's on record numerous amount of times saying he will not mortgage the future for short term gains... that coming when his job is on the line.

He was pretty bad a few years back but over the last 3/4 years, he's done well at bringing in youth to our system and trying to address the holes. Other executives have come to his defense and probably get a chuckle on how some in our fan base think he is the worse ever. People let their frustrations get the best of them and it snow balls.

 

[Andy]

It’s been this fear forever. That MB will trade our 1sts, our top prospects and so on. Yes, we traded sergachev but drouin isn’t old.

Other than that, it’s just people assuming the worst. MB is generally conservative if anything.

The same fear existed with Gainey and Gauthier and they only traded one 1st rounder.

 

[417]

The conversation is not how different the roster/team is compared to 4-5 years ago, every team is different. It's whether you ignore the state/losing of the organization because they won 2 rounds last 3 weeks:

They have 128 wins in the last 4 seasons (over 291 games) - 22nd in NHL
They have 213 wins in the last 6 season (over 455 games) - 24th in NHL

I don't think anyone is/has ignored that...it's been the focus of conversations on this board for the last 8-9 years.

Just not sure why we should dwell about MB's offseason from hell (Radulov, Markov situations), when speaking about how this team looks today or where it's headed.

There has been very little in terms of draft success/development success and their key roster players are approaching mid-30s. Maybe Romanov/Caufield/Kotkaniemi change that but as we saw with Galchenyuk/Mete/DLR/Poehling hype, it takes time for players to settle.

The key roster players on this team, except Price, Petry & Weber, are all between the ages of 20 and 30.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The conversation is not how different the roster/team is compared to 4-5 years ago, every team is different. It's whether you ignore the state/losing of the organization because they won 2 rounds last 3 weeks:

They have 128 wins in the last 4 seasons (over 291 games) - 22nd in NHL
They have 213 wins in the last 6 season (over 455 games) - 24th in NHL

There has been very little in terms of draft success/development success and their key roster players are approaching mid-30s. Maybe Romanov/Caufield/Kotkaniemi change that but as we saw with Galchenyuk/Mete/DLR/Poehling hype, it takes time for players to settle.

It's kind of flawed approach when you consider he had a reset/retool and the strategy is a general trend upwards once the youth matures... like you said... takes time for them to settle.

Weber is a concern yes. Price is not in terms of age. Petry is a late bloomer and lean for his height and body size. He has proven to age well. The rest of the core is in a decent age gap. Aside from Weber, there is no concern.

Galchenyuk and Poehling had hype. We know what happened to Chucky. Poehling had a very good 2nd year as a pro. Same with Brook. Mete and DLR were really not hyped that much but some did. That don't mean that was the general consensus. Mete to me was decent as a depth guy but once I realized he was not generating offense with his skating, he was useless to me cause he is a liability in his own end... Look no further than Sandin and Dermott who we took advantage of. DLR was a depth bottom 6F at best probability indicated 4th line

This latest youth core on our team (Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, KK) with others coming is nothing to be negative about and try to compare hype from previous years. That's walking the Earth with your head down all the time when the trends don't support it

 

[dcyhabs]

And some others have the nerve to say nobody is calling him an idiot or hate him.

To the last point, where is Bergevin trading young cheap guys for old expensive ones? Got examples? Or are you afraid he does this from now into the future?

I'd say he doesn't sufficiently value cap space in trades, thinking mostly of the Sergachev and Subban trades. I guess those are really the only ones, though some of the draft pick trades might qualify, but there are examples both ways. Subban/Weber contracts were fairly comparable but Subban was enough younger that this trade made no sense unless MB knew PK's back was going.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Agreed...if I'm an Avalanche fan, if somehow the Avs can get passed the Knights.

I'd be concerned about playing the Habs. I know most will find that funny give the stat power on the Avs...but the Habs are actually built quite well to play a team like the Avs, who IMO, are very top heavy and have question marks on the back end and in goal (IMO).

They're also not a particularly "hard team". The Avs are built alot like the Leafs IMO, but with less depth across their lineup.

Its quite the opposite actually, guys like Saad, Nikushkin, Jost, Compher, Donskoi are playing their role very well. Unlike the TML 3rd and 4th line. They're also playing the VGK without their #2 C.

 

[Kriss E]

You see it like I do. He's very conservative and he's protected his youth well while also stock piling picks. He's on record numerous amount of times saying he will not mortgage the future for short term gains... that coming when his job is on the line.

He was pretty bad a few years back but over the last 3/4 years, he's done well at bringing in youth to our system and trying to address the holes. Other executives have come to his defense and probably get a chuckle on how some in our fan base think he is the worse ever. People let their frustrations get the best of them and it snow balls.

If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year!

 

[dcyhabs]

Anderson was on pace for 27 goals over a full season and provides size and speed. Right now I’d give him that contract again, no problem. Later on? Yeah, odds are he’ll regress at some point but for now I’m very happy with the acquisition.

He's a player the team needs, but unless my mental math is off he was on pace for 23/24 goals? Not so bad considering the role he fills, but he accumulated most of those points at the beginning of the season and his end of season and playoffs have not been productive.