Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

Discussion in 'Montreal Canadiens' started by Nick Suzuki, Jun 9, 2021.

  1. Habs Halifax Loyal Habs Fan

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    I believe this is too one sided and reeks of Bergevin dislike when there are several executives, media members, and players who talked about the movement the Habs made in last year's playoffs.

    Luck is at play. We are not the only team to get luck along the way. All Covid did was accelerate our movement upwards. How far up can we go before we stall again is the question.

    You like Caufield and Suzuki I am sure. These are two great young talents that Bergevin has acquired. What luck narrative are you going to use now? Let me beat you to it cause I heard it all at this point... Bergevin almost traded Patch to the Kings so no Suzuki if Patch says no. And the only reason why we got Caufield is he was small and slipped.
     
  2. BaseballCoach Registered User

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    When he loses control three times in four playoff years, there is a pattern.
     
  3. Runner77 **********************************************

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    What is truly ironic is that last year’s play-in decided that the reset was over.

    I wouldn’t use the last two years too heavily in deciding an extension for MB however, we can be assured that ownership will as they’re likely to be convinced by how far he’ll have gone into the playoffs this year.

    I’d like to see a contract extension of no more than 3 years, not because I’d truly like it but because one is likely.
     
  4. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    But that's the whole problem you're not seeing. We haven't faced teams like tampa. The highest placed team we faced from last year were the Oilers and Leafs, who finished 12th and 13th respectively.
     
  5. BaseballCoach Registered User

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    I see the following, especially if there is no COVID week forcing 25 games in 44 days.

    Tampa Bay
    Toronto
    Montreal
    Boston
    Florida
    Ottawa
    Detroit
    Buffalo

    2-3-4 fairly close
     
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  6. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    In lieu of counter-arguments, you simply try to paint my post. Think you're gonna nwed to develop those debating skills a bit.
     
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  7. BLONG7 Registered User

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    Cinderella is really gonna need Price to be a real wall......
     
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  8. Burke the Legend Registered User

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    It's not an "excuse", it's a reason. Everyone knows about the draft failure between 2009-2015, there's no mystery to it. 7 years with barely any NHL players found, no team can get ahead like that which is why the team has been mediocre at best from 2016-2020. It was a failure, Bergevin and Timmins could have been fired then, it would have been justified. Whether you like it or not, they weren't, instead they were given a mandate to reform things. The good news is they seem to have done it and the draft record from 2016-20 at the draft looks to be returning better results, plus Bergevin's pro level transaction record is pretty good so here we are with an improved team that's making some noise.
     
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  9. RandR Registered User

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    This is Bergevin's 9th season as Montreal GM; his first was the 2012-2013 season.

    Comparing the Canadian teams during that time:
    - The Canadians have made the playoffs most often (6 times). (Leafs are next with 5, Oilers are worst with 2).
    - The Canadians have won the most playoff series (5 and still counting this year). (Jets and Sens are next with 3 each, Leafs are worst with a big fat 0.) NOTE: I did not count last year's best of 5 play-in before the playoffs.
    - Canadiens have made the semi-finals most often (2 times). (Jets and Sens are next with 1 each, the others have 0.)

    Right now every other Canadian team wish they were still in this years playoffs. Regardless of what happens next, we have Canadian bragging rights for the next year!

    And comparing with the entire league with that time, the Canadiens haven't won the cup in the last 8 years and they have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 9 seasons (counting this year), but they share that with 80% of the teams in the league (only 6 0f 31 teams have won the cup in the last 8 years and only 6 of 31 have missed the playoffs fewer times).

    And I don't buy "if it wasn't for the pandemic" arguments. In the world we happen to live in, there was and is a pandemic, and the Habs took advantage of the extra opportunity it presented to make the playoffs last year. This year every team knew this was going to be a weird season. We should expect GMs and teams to plan accordingly. Can anyone blame Bergevin, coaching staff, and the players beginning with Carey Price for being so opportunistic?

    None of this is proof of anything other than the Habs track record during Bergevin's time is actually better than average over most teams and certainly better than all the other Canadian teams. So if we are going by a team results, which is how most GMs are first evaluated, Bergevin is no genius but it certainly looks to me like he isn't the absolute fool so many on this board make him out to be either.

    FWIW, I would have fired Bergevin a couple different summers during the past 9 years too, but he is still there and this team would likely not be where they are sitting right now without a whole number of circumstances and actions, starting with Carey Price. So yes, praise begins with Carey, but lets not forget the contributions of others, right down to 3rd/4th liners like Armia and Lehkonen who scored huge goals. And where would they be without Toffoli, Edmundson, Anderson, Allen and Perry, all of whom Bergevin acquired in the past year.

    GO HABS!
     
  10. Hannibal Fear the Weber

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    As i said, no gm is perfect.
     
  11. 417 Curtis freakin' Mayfield

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    He's also been suspended during the regular season...he's just a shit piece lol

    Preseason, Regular Season, Playoffs = shit piece
     
  12. Kriss E Registered User

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    I agree, that's why I'm not saying he deserves no recognition. I simply prefer waiting to see how we do versus one team of another division, let's take it from there before speaking of him as some Supreme visionary.
     
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  13. Kriss E Registered User

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    No that's not what I'm presenting but this is you so I'm not surprised. You always have to twist what others post to make your arguments sound better.

    Never claimed we are for sure locked in as a non PO team. All I said is, looking the standings, non-covid, we do not make the POs these past two seasons. So before saying Betge is awesome, I'll wait to see us at least outdo what we've already done, ie reach the semis.
    You turning this into me not thinking youth growth is a reality is beyond lame.
     
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  14. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    Personally, I think the teams you match-up against weighs more than anything else, AINEC.

    At the start of the season, I thought they would do great in the north because the Habs played very well against other Canadian teams over the last few years. Other than having to deal with the factors you named, there are some glarring issues with the team which also brought their record down.

    That they've made it out of the North is no surprise for me, because they matched-up well as was clear by their cumulative record. I remember quite a few here who said Habs might go to the conference finals, but that it would be all she wrote at that point. I thought the Leafs would be their toughest matchup and we barely passed them. On top of being good matchups, tge North also offered a division free of any top 10 teams.

    Here's the rub. While we've been great against Canadian teams in the last half decade, we've played ,500 vs US teams in that same time span. So permit me to be really skeptical of how they'll play once all 25 US teams are up in their faces, including the top 10 best teams, on most nights, no matter the additions.

    Oh sure, they'll maybe be better than 24th, but I wouldn't (actually) bet on them to make the playoffs.
     
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  15. Kriss E Registered User

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    Well its cool you see it that way but have no argument for it.
    Boston almost ended with 10 more wins than us, Florida finished above Tampa...but okay..sure, we'd finish above them. Logic.
     
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  16. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    There's something really obvious you're just not seeing.
     
  17. Andy Registered User

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    Movement in last years playoffs? They got spanked by Philly. Am I missing something?
     
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  18. BLONG7 Registered User

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    Good post, and alot of upbeat info in there....very interesting
    That being said, one thing to consider, the other canadian franchises are not the franchises we should be using as a measuring stick.
    Example, next to the Bruins, and their 3 trips to the finals, and one Cup, we pale in comparison....just thinking we should be aiming higher...
    That all being said, a one Marc Bergevin has been working us all over the nine years, by lowering expectations, and moving goalposts........we have all been duped into thinking making the final 4 is amazing, and it is great, but it's not what I am looking for.
    Let's hope we can make the final this year!! Go habs Go!!
     
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  19. Andy Registered User

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    I feel like we’re doing what the leafs fans are doing, but in reverse.

    the leafs are overreacting negatively to a series loss, when they shouldn’t. And many habs fans are getting cocky about the quality of the club and it’s future over two series wins.

    the reality for both is somewhere in the middle. The habs played 6 teams all year. There is no way to know how good the club is until we play outside the division.

    I know we sparked the Jets, but that shouldn’t revisit what happened with the leafs. They looked good at times against Toronto, but outside game 7, the habs didn’t look great for huge swaths of the series…and that was just against Toronto.

    righr now everyone is jumping the gun trying to say they’re right. We need to wait and see how we fare outside the division and I hope senior management sees the need to wait as well.

    Personally, I see an average team at the end of the day, with good pieces like most teams have. 10 years to take an average team and keep it average is not exciting for me personally.

    I would love to be wrong and for the habs to roll their way through the cup, but man, I don’t see it. Maybe they win, and I hope the next series proves that they’re more than just average.
     
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  20. Ozymandias The writing is on the wall

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    You obviously dislike Bergevin too much to form a valid argument.
     
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  21. Miller Time Registered User

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    that's an interesting (and i'd say quite optimistic) early prediction... i'll bite.

    Toronto - offseason will be interesting, but count on a reload and i suspect a very strong year

    Tampa Bay - they will need more cap creativity, and will have to replace some key contributors with youth/league minimum players... but still have a deadly core.

    Florida - might just be ready to take the Florida crown, if not, very close.

    Detroit - i think one of Ottawa/Detroit will make some offseason noise adding vet talent and be ready for a jump. More confidence it will be Detroit bc of Yzerman and looser pocket ownership.

    Montreal - young guys will need to take major step forward because no cap to address holes and d will be a liability in an 82-game season unless romanov is top-4 ready.

    Ottawa - one of them or Detroit will make a jump, the other will be just below.

    Boston - i think a retool is coming... Rask probably gone, Sweeney/Jacobs have shown willingness to hit reset and this core group doesn't seem worth doubling down on at this point.

    Buffalo - Eichel will go and the next rebuild attempt will begin in earnest.


    of course, offseason moves and direction changes could completely alter this... but that's what i'd put down today.
     
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  22. teamfirst Registered User

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    Thanks for the work you put in to this post, very interesting

    I would put it this way, MB is probably not the best but is far from the worst (like some here would like us to believe) GM in this league , he is probably the best we had since Serge Savard and your analysis tend to prove it
     
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  23. Runner77 **********************************************

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    Did anyone say that MB is the worst GM in the league? I have not seen anyone say that. I think everyone is evaluating him on his own merits. There is good and bad and some of us ascribe varying weightings depending on several factors — a major one is looking at the whole of his tenure as opposed to carving out significant portions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2021
  24. Miller Time Registered User

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    Agree with most of your points...

    I think the other piece to consider in evaluating his work as GM, is the big gap prior to these past two weeks in what results looked like in first 3-4yrs vs last 3-4 of his tenure. As the roster was more and more shaped by his work, the results plummeted. Semi finals & 3 playoff wins came in first 3 seasons (& >.600) regular seasons.

    Then, 4 dismal years with only 1 playoff round and 1 season >.600.

    Yes, COVID affected all teams, but last year we were a big beneficiary as we were not making playoffs without it (& a .500 team that likely wouldve finished below that without the vivid stoppage).

    With many owners freezing spending and the cap going flat, we also benefited hugely by having ownership willing to vastly increase salary (I believe we were the biggest increase year over year)...

    Leaving us a cap spending team that just made the PO's.

    So, considering those factors, the body of GM work I'd say remains below average, even though the results are better than that...
     
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  25. Kriss E Registered User

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    I think it was a difficult situation for DD, I didn't have a problem with him aside from his decisions in OT, and scratching of Caufield/KK/Romanov in POs.
    So this is moot for me.
    We don't need to concede anything. Again, 2 weeks ago, it was let's hang this guy. Now it's ''we need to concede he's changed''.
    What's gonna be the rhetoric if we get swept in the next round?

    If you think the jury is still out then maybe wait for it.
    I think some are getting a little too carried away, acting like we won the cup already and Bergevin is a visionary. We beat a Leafs team who lost Tavares and is notorious to lose in first round.
    Then we swept a team who only had 4 more points than us, traded their top sniper for PLD who hasn't impressed, and to make it worse, Scheifele suspension, DeMelo/Stastny injuries.
    That's not to take anything away from us, we've played very well the last 7 games. But this can all be a smokescreen, so I rather wait to see how we do in the next round.

    Not sure what that has to do with Bergevin and his vision.

    His record 5+ years ago is actually good. It's in the last 5 years where he's missed POs, if you look at last year and this year too going off points, we should not have made the POs.
    He has another season. There's no reason to rush anything.
     

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