Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

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Habs Halifax

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Uhm no. First off, this is a supposition. Let's look at another supposition that has higher probability:

Covid has cash strapped a lot of teams, leaving the Habs as a better venue than they normally would be. Pretty sure no one was highly impressed winning against a rusted Pens team, in what amounted to pre-season play.

I believe this is too one sided and reeks of Bergevin dislike when there are several executives, media members, and players who talked about the movement the Habs made in last year's playoffs.

Luck is at play. We are not the only team to get luck along the way. All Covid did was accelerate our movement upwards. How far up can we go before we stall again is the question.

You like Caufield and Suzuki I am sure. These are two great young talents that Bergevin has acquired. What luck narrative are you going to use now? Let me beat you to it cause I heard it all at this point... Bergevin almost traded Patch to the Kings so no Suzuki if Patch says no. And the only reason why we got Caufield is he was small and slipped.
 

BaseballCoach

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I just meant he's a player I hadn't originally accounted for.

I'm not one who believes that one years playoff performance has anything to do with another though.
When he loses control three times in four playoff years, there is a pattern.
 

Runner77

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Yes I agree, we had no business being in the playoffs last season. A lot of changes have been made to the roster since then though. The majority of them being positive. So judging them that way may not be fair. As for this year, yes by going off points, we don't make it again. In fairness, you have to play the games. You can't compare playing a condensed schedule in one division. Compared to playing a regular full schedule. This is why I'm not praising or slamming Bergie right now. We'll have plenty of time to do that next season :)

What is truly ironic is that last year’s play-in decided that the reset was over.

I wouldn’t use the last two years too heavily in deciding an extension for MB however, we can be assured that ownership will as they’re likely to be convinced by how far he’ll have gone into the playoffs this year.

I’d like to see a contract extension of no more than 3 years, not because I’d truly like it but because one is likely.
 

BaseballCoach

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If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years.
I see the following, especially if there is no COVID week forcing 25 games in 44 days.

Tampa Bay
Toronto
Montreal
Boston
Florida
Ottawa
Detroit
Buffalo

2-3-4 fairly close
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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I believe this is too one sided and reeks of Bergevin dislike when there are several executives, media members, and players who talked about the movement the Habs made in last year's playoffs.

Luck is at play. We are not the only team to get luck along the way. All Covid did was accelerate our movement upwards. How far up can we go before we stall again is the question.

You like Caufield and Suzuki I am sure. These are two great young talents that Bergevin has acquired. What luck narrative are you going to use now? Let me beat you to it cause I heard it all at this point... Bergevin almost traded Patch to the Kings so no Suzuki if Patch says no. And the only reason why we got Caufield is he was small and slipped.

In lieu of counter-arguments, you simply try to paint my post. Think you're gonna nwed to develop those debating skills a bit.
 

Burke the Legend

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Feb 22, 2012
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Maybe Bergevin can have another good summer and fix more holes. But after almost 10 years as GM, going into 21/22 the organization is worse overall than what he started with after 11/12. Blaming 2008-2011 for the lack of prospect development is already proven to be false/excuses as the best player drafted from 2008-2011 still better than anyone drafted by Bergevin's team from 2012-2020.

It's not an "excuse", it's a reason. Everyone knows about the draft failure between 2009-2015, there's no mystery to it. 7 years with barely any NHL players found, no team can get ahead like that which is why the team has been mediocre at best from 2016-2020. It was a failure, Bergevin and Timmins could have been fired then, it would have been justified. Whether you like it or not, they weren't, instead they were given a mandate to reform things. The good news is they seem to have done it and the draft record from 2016-20 at the draft looks to be returning better results, plus Bergevin's pro level transaction record is pretty good so here we are with an improved team that's making some noise.
 

RandR

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This is Bergevin's 9th season as Montreal GM; his first was the 2012-2013 season.

Comparing the Canadian teams during that time:
- The Canadians have made the playoffs most often (6 times). (Leafs are next with 5, Oilers are worst with 2).
- The Canadians have won the most playoff series (5 and still counting this year). (Jets and Sens are next with 3 each, Leafs are worst with a big fat 0.) NOTE: I did not count last year's best of 5 play-in before the playoffs.
- Canadiens have made the semi-finals most often (2 times). (Jets and Sens are next with 1 each, the others have 0.)

Right now every other Canadian team wish they were still in this years playoffs. Regardless of what happens next, we have Canadian bragging rights for the next year!

And comparing with the entire league with that time, the Canadiens haven't won the cup in the last 8 years and they have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 9 seasons (counting this year), but they share that with 80% of the teams in the league (only 6 0f 31 teams have won the cup in the last 8 years and only 6 of 31 have missed the playoffs fewer times).

And I don't buy "if it wasn't for the pandemic" arguments. In the world we happen to live in, there was and is a pandemic, and the Habs took advantage of the extra opportunity it presented to make the playoffs last year. This year every team knew this was going to be a weird season. We should expect GMs and teams to plan accordingly. Can anyone blame Bergevin, coaching staff, and the players beginning with Carey Price for being so opportunistic?

None of this is proof of anything other than the Habs track record during Bergevin's time is actually better than average over most teams and certainly better than all the other Canadian teams. So if we are going by a team results, which is how most GMs are first evaluated, Bergevin is no genius but it certainly looks to me like he isn't the absolute fool so many on this board make him out to be either.

FWIW, I would have fired Bergevin a couple different summers during the past 9 years too, but he is still there and this team would likely not be where they are sitting right now without a whole number of circumstances and actions, starting with Carey Price. So yes, praise begins with Carey, but lets not forget the contributions of others, right down to 3rd/4th liners like Armia and Lehkonen who scored huge goals. And where would they be without Toffoli, Edmundson, Anderson, Allen and Perry, all of whom Bergevin acquired in the past year.

GO HABS!
 

Kriss E

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Yes I agree, we had no business being in the playoffs last season. A lot of changes have been made to the roster since then though. The majority of them being positive. So judging them that way may not be fair. As for this year, yes by going off points, we don't make it again. In fairness, you have to play the games. You can't compare playing a condensed schedule in one division. Compared to playing a regular full schedule. This is why I'm not praising or slamming Bergie right now. We'll have plenty of time to do that next season :)
I agree, that's why I'm not saying he deserves no recognition. I simply prefer waiting to see how we do versus one team of another division, let's take it from there before speaking of him as some Supreme visionary.
 
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Kriss E

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You don't know if we make the playoffs or not and you or I can't prove it.

Basically you are saying we are for sure locked in from 10-15 and not a playoff team.

- Youth growth don't matter.
- Better back-up don't matter
- Better forwards for Suzuki and KK don't matter
- Better D don't matter cause they can't move the puck

Nothing matters. That's the narrative you are presenting and it's extremely pessimistic. It reeks of Bergevin dislike and nothing matters until he is gone. The team is improving and the trends are there. You want us to be a cup contender and because we are not, we suck. 10 years... :blah:

I understand what you are saying but bud... don't you realize this is noise that we really don't need. Bergevin probably gets fired if we loose game 5 to the Leafs yes. But we didn't. Deal with it. We are in the final 4 (luck or not).
No that's not what I'm presenting but this is you so I'm not surprised. You always have to twist what others post to make your arguments sound better.

Never claimed we are for sure locked in as a non PO team. All I said is, looking the standings, non-covid, we do not make the POs these past two seasons. So before saying Betge is awesome, I'll wait to see us at least outdo what we've already done, ie reach the semis.
You turning this into me not thinking youth growth is a reality is beyond lame.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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We don't know that for sure. Covid added a lot of unpredictable situations for the team and for the league as a whole.

Here are a few things that deeply effected the Habs...due to Covid.

1. Condensed schedule:

A: With our depth, we could have been able to sit players like Weber. Instead we had to burn him out. Leaving him to be a shell of his former self. I still don't think Weber is close to being 100%, but he's played much better since he's been back from injury. Allen was quite valuable and I think he would have been more valuable for Price's well being in a full season.

B: Brought up more kids from the farm to give them a taste of the NHL. You can do this safely in a full season. You can't afford to do this with the schedule that was implemented.

C: Had more time for our new coaching staff to implement new systems. When Ducharme first came in, we saw small changes right away. Since he didn't have time, the team went back to their old habits. Since that is all they knew. Now that Ducharme has had more time with the team. I've definitely noticed improvements overall.

2. Covid hitting the team:

A: Yes other teams were hit as well. Under normal circumstances, we don't get shut down for a week plus with no games or practices in the middle of the season. We lost valuable time for as I mentioned earlier, Ducharme to work with the team.

3: Living in a Bubble due to Covid:

A: Yes I know this effected all NHL teams as well as everyone on the planet. My point is, it was something that none of them have ever had to go through before. The weight of this for me (an average person) was and still is tremendous. I can't imagine being away from my family. Constantly worrying about their health and well being.

So after writing this essay. I'm not saying we're an amazing team or even a playoff contender. I just think there were too many factors to allow us to make a confident decision on the team either way. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing things go back to normal. That is the only proper way to make a decision on the progress of this team IMO.

Personally, I think the teams you match-up against weighs more than anything else, AINEC.

At the start of the season, I thought they would do great in the north because the Habs played very well against other Canadian teams over the last few years. Other than having to deal with the factors you named, there are some glarring issues with the team which also brought their record down.

That they've made it out of the North is no surprise for me, because they matched-up well as was clear by their cumulative record. I remember quite a few here who said Habs might go to the conference finals, but that it would be all she wrote at that point. I thought the Leafs would be their toughest matchup and we barely passed them. On top of being good matchups, tge North also offered a division free of any top 10 teams.

Here's the rub. While we've been great against Canadian teams in the last half decade, we've played ,500 vs US teams in that same time span. So permit me to be really skeptical of how they'll play once all 25 US teams are up in their faces, including the top 10 best teams, on most nights, no matter the additions.

Oh sure, they'll maybe be better than 24th, but I wouldn't (actually) bet on them to make the playoffs.
 

Kriss E

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I see the following, especially if there is no COVID week forcing 25 games in 44 days.

Tampa Bay
Toronto
Montreal
Boston
Florida
Ottawa
Detroit
Buffalo

2-3-4 fairly close
Well its cool you see it that way but have no argument for it.
Boston almost ended with 10 more wins than us, Florida finished above Tampa...but okay..sure, we'd finish above them. Logic.
 

Andy

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Jun 26, 2008
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Montreal
I believe this is too one sided and reeks of Bergevin dislike when there are several executives, media members, and players who talked about the movement the Habs made in last year's playoffs.

Luck is at play. We are not the only team to get luck along the way. All Covid did was accelerate our movement upwards. How far up can we go before we stall again is the question.

You like Caufield and Suzuki I am sure. These are two great young talents that Bergevin has acquired. What luck narrative are you going to use now? Let me beat you to it cause I heard it all at this point... Bergevin almost traded Patch to the Kings so no Suzuki if Patch says no. And the only reason why we got Caufield is he was small and slipped.
Movement in last years playoffs? They got spanked by Philly. Am I missing something?
 

BLONG7

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This is Bergevin's 9th season as Montreal GM; his first was the 2012-2013 season.

Comparing the Canadian teams during that time:
- The Canadians have made the playoffs most often (6 times). (Leafs are next with 5, Oilers are worst with 2).
- The Canadians have won the most playoff series (5 and still counting this year). (Jets and Sens are next with 3 each, Leafs are worst with a big fat 0.) NOTE: I did not count last year's best of 5 play-in before the playoffs.
- Canadiens have made the semi-finals most often (2 times). (Jets and Sens are next with 1 each, the others have 0.)

Right now every other Canadian team wish they were still in this years playoffs. Regardless of what happens next, we have Canadian bragging rights for the next year!

And comparing with the entire league with that time, the Canadiens haven't won the cup in the last 8 years and they have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 9 seasons (counting this year), but they share that with 80% of the teams in the league (only 6 0f 31 teams have won the cup in the last 8 years and only 6 of 31 have missed the playoffs fewer times).

And I don't buy "if it wasn't for the pandemic" arguments. In the world we happen to live in, there was and is a pandemic, and the Habs took advantage of the extra opportunity it presented to make the playoffs last year. This year every team knew this was going to be a weird season. We should expect GMs and teams to plan accordingly. Can anyone blame Bergevin, coaching staff, and the players beginning with Carey Price for being so opportunistic?

None of this is proof of anything other than the Habs track record during Bergevin's time is actually better than average over most teams and certainly better than all the other Canadian teams. So if we are going by a team results, which is how most GMs are first evaluated, Bergevin is no genius but it certainly looks to me like he isn't the absolute fool so many on this board make him out to be either.

FWIW, I would have fired Bergevin a couple different summers during the past 9 years too, but he is still there and this team would likely not be where they are sitting right now without a whole number of circumstances and actions, starting with Carey Price. So yes, praise begins with Carey, but lets not forget the contributions of others, right down to 3rd/4th liners like Armia and Lehkonen who scored huge goals. And where would they be without Toffoli, Edmundson, Anderson, Allen and Perry, all of whom Bergevin acquired in the past year.

GO HABS!
Good post, and alot of upbeat info in there....very interesting
That being said, one thing to consider, the other canadian franchises are not the franchises we should be using as a measuring stick.
Example, next to the Bruins, and their 3 trips to the finals, and one Cup, we pale in comparison....just thinking we should be aiming higher...
That all being said, a one Marc Bergevin has been working us all over the nine years, by lowering expectations, and moving goalposts........we have all been duped into thinking making the final 4 is amazing, and it is great, but it's not what I am looking for.
Let's hope we can make the final this year!! Go habs Go!!
 

Andy

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Jun 26, 2008
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Montreal
I feel like we’re doing what the leafs fans are doing, but in reverse.

the leafs are overreacting negatively to a series loss, when they shouldn’t. And many habs fans are getting cocky about the quality of the club and it’s future over two series wins.

the reality for both is somewhere in the middle. The habs played 6 teams all year. There is no way to know how good the club is until we play outside the division.

I know we sparked the Jets, but that shouldn’t revisit what happened with the leafs. They looked good at times against Toronto, but outside game 7, the habs didn’t look great for huge swaths of the series…and that was just against Toronto.

righr now everyone is jumping the gun trying to say they’re right. We need to wait and see how we fare outside the division and I hope senior management sees the need to wait as well.

Personally, I see an average team at the end of the day, with good pieces like most teams have. 10 years to take an average team and keep it average is not exciting for me personally.

I would love to be wrong and for the habs to roll their way through the cup, but man, I don’t see it. Maybe they win, and I hope the next series proves that they’re more than just average.
 

Miller Time

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I see the following, especially if there is no COVID week forcing 25 games in 44 days.

Tampa Bay
Toronto
Montreal
Boston
Florida
Ottawa
Detroit
Buffalo

2-3-4 fairly close

that's an interesting (and i'd say quite optimistic) early prediction... i'll bite.

Toronto - offseason will be interesting, but count on a reload and i suspect a very strong year

Tampa Bay - they will need more cap creativity, and will have to replace some key contributors with youth/league minimum players... but still have a deadly core.

Florida - might just be ready to take the Florida crown, if not, very close.

Detroit - i think one of Ottawa/Detroit will make some offseason noise adding vet talent and be ready for a jump. More confidence it will be Detroit bc of Yzerman and looser pocket ownership.

Montreal - young guys will need to take major step forward because no cap to address holes and d will be a liability in an 82-game season unless romanov is top-4 ready.

Ottawa - one of them or Detroit will make a jump, the other will be just below.

Boston - i think a retool is coming... Rask probably gone, Sweeney/Jacobs have shown willingness to hit reset and this core group doesn't seem worth doubling down on at this point.

Buffalo - Eichel will go and the next rebuild attempt will begin in earnest.


of course, offseason moves and direction changes could completely alter this... but that's what i'd put down today.
 

teamfirst

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This is Bergevin's 9th season as Montreal GM; his first was the 2012-2013 season.

Comparing the Canadian teams during that time:
- The Canadians have made the playoffs most often (6 times). (Leafs are next with 5, Oilers are worst with 2).
- The Canadians have won the most playoff series (5 and still counting this year). (Jets and Sens are next with 3 each, Leafs are worst with a big fat 0.) NOTE: I did not count last year's best of 5 play-in before the playoffs.
- Canadiens have made the semi-finals most often (2 times). (Jets and Sens are next with 1 each, the others have 0.)

Right now every other Canadian team wish they were still in this years playoffs. Regardless of what happens next, we have Canadian bragging rights for the next year!

And comparing with the entire league with that time, the Canadiens haven't won the cup in the last 8 years and they have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 9 seasons (counting this year), but they share that with 80% of the teams in the league (only 6 0f 31 teams have won the cup in the last 8 years and only 6 of 31 have missed the playoffs fewer times).

And I don't buy "if it wasn't for the pandemic" arguments. In the world we happen to live in, there was and is a pandemic, and the Habs took advantage of the extra opportunity it presented to make the playoffs last year. This year every team knew this was going to be a weird season. We should expect GMs and teams to plan accordingly. Can anyone blame Bergevin, coaching staff, and the players beginning with Carey Price for being so opportunistic?

None of this is proof of anything other than the Habs track record during Bergevin's time is actually better than average over most teams and certainly better than all the other Canadian teams. So if we are going by a team results, which is how most GMs are first evaluated, Bergevin is no genius but it certainly looks to me like he isn't the absolute fool so many on this board make him out to be either.

FWIW, I would have fired Bergevin a couple different summers during the past 9 years too, but he is still there and this team would likely not be where they are sitting right now without a whole number of circumstances and actions, starting with Carey Price. So yes, praise begins with Carey, but lets not forget the contributions of others, right down to 3rd/4th liners like Armia and Lehkonen who scored huge goals. And where would they be without Toffoli, Edmundson, Anderson, Allen and Perry, all of whom Bergevin acquired in the past year.

GO HABS!


Thanks for the work you put in to this post, very interesting

I would put it this way, MB is probably not the best but is far from the worst (like some here would like us to believe) GM in this league , he is probably the best we had since Serge Savard and your analysis tend to prove it
 
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Runner77

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Did anyone say that MB is the worst GM in the league? I have not seen anyone say that. I think everyone is evaluating him on his own merits. There is good and bad and some of us ascribe varying weightings depending on several factors — a major one is looking at the whole of his tenure as opposed to carving out significant portions.
 
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Miller Time

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This is Bergevin's 9th season as Montreal GM; his first was the 2012-2013 season.

Comparing the Canadian teams during that time:
- The Canadians have made the playoffs most often (6 times). (Leafs are next with 5, Oilers are worst with 2).
- The Canadians have won the most playoff series (5 and still counting this year). (Jets and Sens are next with 3 each, Leafs are worst with a big fat 0.) NOTE: I did not count last year's best of 5 play-in before the playoffs.
- Canadiens have made the semi-finals most often (2 times). (Jets and Sens are next with 1 each, the others have 0.)

Right now every other Canadian team wish they were still in this years playoffs. Regardless of what happens next, we have Canadian bragging rights for the next year!

And comparing with the entire league with that time, the Canadiens haven't won the cup in the last 8 years and they have missed the playoffs 3 times in the last 9 seasons (counting this year), but they share that with 80% of the teams in the league (only 6 0f 31 teams have won the cup in the last 8 years and only 6 of 31 have missed the playoffs fewer times).

And I don't buy "if it wasn't for the pandemic" arguments. In the world we happen to live in, there was and is a pandemic, and the Habs took advantage of the extra opportunity it presented to make the playoffs last year. This year every team knew this was going to be a weird season. We should expect GMs and teams to plan accordingly. Can anyone blame Bergevin, coaching staff, and the players beginning with Carey Price for being so opportunistic?

None of this is proof of anything other than the Habs track record during Bergevin's time is actually better than average over most teams and certainly better than all the other Canadian teams. So if we are going by a team results, which is how most GMs are first evaluated, Bergevin is no genius but it certainly looks to me like he isn't the absolute fool so many on this board make him out to be either.

FWIW, I would have fired Bergevin a couple different summers during the past 9 years too, but he is still there and this team would likely not be where they are sitting right now without a whole number of circumstances and actions, starting with Carey Price. So yes, praise begins with Carey, but lets not forget the contributions of others, right down to 3rd/4th liners like Armia and Lehkonen who scored huge goals. And where would they be without Toffoli, Edmundson, Anderson, Allen and Perry, all of whom Bergevin acquired in the past year.

GO HABS!

Agree with most of your points...

I think the other piece to consider in evaluating his work as GM, is the big gap prior to these past two weeks in what results looked like in first 3-4yrs vs last 3-4 of his tenure. As the roster was more and more shaped by his work, the results plummeted. Semi finals & 3 playoff wins came in first 3 seasons (& >.600) regular seasons.

Then, 4 dismal years with only 1 playoff round and 1 season >.600.

Yes, COVID affected all teams, but last year we were a big beneficiary as we were not making playoffs without it (& a .500 team that likely wouldve finished below that without the vivid stoppage).

With many owners freezing spending and the cap going flat, we also benefited hugely by having ownership willing to vastly increase salary (I believe we were the biggest increase year over year)...

Leaving us a cap spending team that just made the PO's.

So, considering those factors, the body of GM work I'd say remains below average, even though the results are better than that...
 
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Kriss E

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As I stated, I'm not sure if the coaching change (as well as spending up to the cap on vets) was a smart move or gun to the head move. Regardless, I now like it. DD has had a good track record in the past and I like the way he has handled the playoffs. I'm not going to give an interim coach hired halfway through the season on a slide during Covid too much trouble. Talk about the worst situation to take over a team. It was a rough transition, but I think he takes a reasoned approach, which is working. Again, the next round will tell the tale.
I think it was a difficult situation for DD, I didn't have a problem with him aside from his decisions in OT, and scratching of Caufield/KK/Romanov in POs.
So this is moot for me.
I think we must all concede (for better or worse) MB has changed. Think about how long he stuck with LS in the A and MT in the big club. Those were atrocious leadership decisions. So, has he learned from his mistakes or simply made changes out of desperation and fallen into some luck. I think the jury is still out. That being said, if you look at the state of the team right now, ... it's in decent shape and on a solid trajectory. Why did it take so long to get here? Why did he stick with MT and LS so long? Why did he get Alzner?????..... (holy cow, catasrophically bad).... etc etc etc.... He has a mixed tenure, but the second half has clearly been better than the first.
We don't need to concede anything. Again, 2 weeks ago, it was let's hang this guy. Now it's ''we need to concede he's changed''.
What's gonna be the rhetoric if we get swept in the next round?

If you think the jury is still out then maybe wait for it.
So, all that being said, if he has learned from his mistakes (and I'm not conceding this, I'm not sure he's introspective enough to do so), then it might hard to find a replacement that would be better. 5 years ago, there's no way I would have made that statement, now, I'm willing to consider it. OTOH, if he hasn't learned and just got lucky, then he needs to go. Since he will almost certainly get an extension after this run (hopefully 3), we'll have a decent sample size to find the answer.
I think some are getting a little too carried away, acting like we won the cup already and Bergevin is a visionary. We beat a Leafs team who lost Tavares and is notorious to lose in first round.
Then we swept a team who only had 4 more points than us, traded their top sniper for PLD who hasn't impressed, and to make it worse, Scheifele suspension, DeMelo/Stastny injuries.
That's not to take anything away from us, we've played very well the last 7 games. But this can all be a smokescreen, so I rather wait to see how we do in the next round.

KK's been learning on the job. Do we give up on him after a 3 or 4 yr stretch where he hasn't lived up to expectations even though he performed well in the playoffs against Covid competition? If we give up on him, is there a better replacement to plug in without going backwards for another 3-5 years?
Not sure what that has to do with Bergevin and his vision.

In the end, MB should have been fired 4-5 years ago. He wasn't. For whatever reason, Molson stuck with him. Now we're where we are. Firing a guy for his record 5+ years ago when he's had a decent last 3 seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. We got to where we are due to the owner. Now it seems like it might make sense to give him 3 yr more leash to settle the question once and for all. If he regresses, the owner can fire him 1 yr in. It's only money, right?
His record 5+ years ago is actually good. It's in the last 5 years where he's missed POs, if you look at last year and this year too going off points, we should not have made the POs.
He has another season. There's no reason to rush anything.
 
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