Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

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417

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Feb 20, 2003
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Its quite the opposite actually, guys like Saad, Nikushkin, Jost, Compher, Donskoi are playing their role very well. Unlike the TML 3rd and 4th line. They're also playing the VGK without their #2 C.
Yeah not suggesting they don't play their roles well...you're right, they're probably better at playing roles than the guys on the Leafs were.

But compare lineups...I found there was more depth scoring throughout the Leafs lineup in comparison.

And you're also right, kinda forgot about Kadri.
 

417

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If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year! :facepalm:
If not for COVID...the Habs don't play 25 games in 43 days either.

You have to be able to appreciate how insane of a schedule that was down the stretch and how that affected their results.

The Montreal Canadiens aren't the juggernaut they were for the first 10-12 games this year...but they're also not the putrid team we saw down the stretch playing every other night for 2 months either.

The truth is somewhere in the middle...and that middle has manifested itself into a Final 4 showing because while everyone hates to hear/read this.

Anything CAN happen in the playoffs (though this should NEVER be used as a reference point when building your team).
 
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Habs Halifax

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Jul 11, 2016
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I'd say he doesn't sufficiently value cap space in trades, thinking mostly of the Sergachev and Subban trades. I guess those are really the only ones, though some of the draft pick trades might qualify, but there are examples both ways. Subban/Weber contracts were fairly comparable but Subban was enough younger that this trade made no sense unless MB knew PK's back was going.

Because I feel he has learned on the job from his past mistakes, I don't think he's making the same decisions he was years ago. I would break his tenure down into 3 thirds. First 3rd he was trending OK and we were winning divisions (weak division? So what). Middle 3rd was horrible but Molson was too afraid to fire him due to having to write off over $25M in actual money. Last 3rd he he trended way better than most give him credit for. Several executives from across the league and in the media have spoken to that with good context. I feel people are still living in 2016/2017

Not a Genius. Not a Idiot. He's learned on the job. That's what I see. However, his work is not done yet or if it's not him, the next guy needs to fine a few more to add to our youth core mix. Is the PMD who can QB our PP in our system or do we have to try to acquire him in a trade? Not sure yet. Can get get that guy now? Not impossible but difficult to do. How good is KK? Not sure... he is and was always a long term prospect.
 
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Miller Time

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Sep 16, 2004
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And how do you evaluate the quality of a decision outside of results? Can you see the circularity?

And if you want to escape the circularity by looking at moves in isolation, I already did that in my "Bergevin won all his major trades" thread, and was criticized for not looking at the team holistically.

See the paradox and moving goal posts?

no circularity. Nuance. I appreciate that it's difficult to understand.

There is no moving goal post I see, other than those who were either "off" the MB bandwagon, or deafly silent, in the weeks before the game 7 win vs the laffs.

There are a myriad of ways to evaluate managerial effectiveness... and i certainly wouldn't argue that my particular approach is the gold standard or "best". I would argue, that some approaches are more robust than others, and that relates to things like logical consistency, well-defined parameters, clear standards, evidence et.

It's not a matter of "chicken and egg"... If the only criteria one chooses to consider is cup success, than of course it would be easy to simply assert that all cup winning GM's were "good" managers, and all non-cup winning GM's are "bad" GMs. I don't suscribe to that approach.

Yes, the outcome of winning a cup is what all fans want, and, most GMs... Though there are certainly established situations where the GM was hired/directed towards other priorities (including our own Houle during the late 90's). Achieving that outcome does not, I would argue, by definition assert the quality of the management approach. You can achieve good outcomes with a bad approach.

MB's approach, well-argued and debate for years now, is symptomatic of many things that I consider to be poor practices. This cap-spent roster, despite the "he's been different/better since 2018" narrative, imo continues to reflect many of those poor practices. That Carey Price at the peak of his game is a very influential difference-maker is one of many factors that have allowed us, this post-season to avoid the disappointing outcomes that his type of decision-making/management are more likely to lead to, imo.
 

Habs Halifax

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If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year! :facepalm:

Because of Covid, we got a 2nd chance and the team showed it's potential when the games matter the most (play in round and playoffs). Habs showed the same signs of not being able to score against the Flyers which was annoying. However, because of this luck, it accelerated the spot we were in and other players in the NHL took notice and decided to come to Montreal either through UFA or trades/extensions. You can't ignore that

Luck is something all teams need along the way
- Pasta on the Bruins at 25 when the following draft year they didn't take Barzal with picks 13,14,15. A genius one year and duds the next year. Go figure eh
- Leafs tanking and winning the lottery (Matthews) when they could have picked 3rd. Kind of like when the Avs owned the Sens pick?
- Leafs being able to sign the pajama boy and not pay any assets to acquire.
- Lightning drafting Point in the 3rd round. Genius or luck? How many elite level talent do you know gets taken in the 3rd round?
- Avs getting that return for Duchene after over a year of trying to move him. If not for the desperate Sens, they don't get that return

The only thing Covid did was save his job yes because like I said, it allowed us to accelerate our strategy of good young players mixing in our team of vets. You might like that cause you have been vocal of not wanting him as our GM but all what happened lead to where we are today. A good team, with a great goalie, and a rising youth core.

How many years do you think it's takes Yzerman to turn the Wings into a legit playoff team? I have a lot of respect for Yzerman but I wonder about what he can do from scratch. He didn't start from scratch in Tampa
 
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dcyhabs

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May 30, 2008
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Total opposite for me. I know maybe 1 or 2 people who think he's a good GM. The rest is either meh or dislike.

Most fans are too high or too low. "Therrien's a genius" or "Therrien should be fired", "MB is great" or "fire everyone everyone and hire some random ex-player" or "just fire everyone to show we want success." Canadian fan bases are like move super villains, fire everyone, hire randomly. Relax, realize that most front offices and coaches are ex-players but mediocre at their current role.

Expansion teams have an advantage in not having to hire someone who played or has a recognizable name as their fans often don't know much about hockey. They can hire an analytic front office, like in Carolina, and not have a bunch of people whining that they didn't hire some guy they know who can't really do the job.
 

Habs Halifax

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Jul 11, 2016
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no circularity. Nuance. I appreciate that it's difficult to understand.

There is no moving goal post I see, other than those who were either "off" the MB bandwagon, or deafly silent, in the weeks before the game 7 win vs the laffs.

There are a myriad of ways to evaluate managerial effectiveness... and i certainly wouldn't argue that my particular approach is the gold standard or "best". I would argue, that some approaches are more robust than others, and that relates to things like logical consistency, well-defined parameters, clear standards, evidence et.

It's not a matter of "chicken and egg"... If the only criteria one chooses to consider is cup success, than of course it would be easy to simply assert that all cup winning GM's were "good" managers, and all non-cup winning GM's are "bad" GMs. I don't suscribe to that approach.

Yes, the outcome of winning a cup is what all fans want, and, most GMs... Though there are certainly established situations where the GM was hired/directed towards other priorities (including our own Houle during the late 90's). Achieving that outcome does not, I would argue, by definition assert the quality of the management approach. You can achieve good outcomes with a bad approach.

MB's approach, well-argued and debate for years now, is symptomatic of many things that I consider to be poor practices. This cap-spent roster, despite the "he's been different/better since 2018" narrative, imo continues to reflect many of those poor practices. That Carey Price at the peak of his game is a very influential difference-maker is one of many factors that have allowed us, this post-season to avoid the disappointing outcomes that his type of decision-making/management are more likely to lead to, imo.

This cap spent roster is in the final 4 when in previous seasons, it was not a cap spent roster and he was getting criticized for it.

18 players signed with $12.2M in cap space.
- He will extend Danault and get criticized for it. My focus on that is term... I'm waiting to see
- Tatar is as good as gone unless he wants to take a major pay cut.
- Armia is likely back unless we have bigger plans
- Chiarot or Allen likely get taken by Seattle
- What happens with Drouin? Not sure
- He will be able to bring back guys like Perry and Gusta with the covid flat cap still around for a few years
 
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BaseballCoach

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"Idiot" is harsh, he doesn't seem like a genius but many of his recent moves have been good and the defence looks good when penalties aren't being called. I'd say the habs need someone to provide vision and stop Bergevin from trading young, cheap guys for old, expensive guys.
Yeah, like when he traded Suzuki for Pacioretty?
 
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BaseballCoach

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If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year! :facepalm:
I'm not so sure. Without COVID we don't play 25 games in 44 days.

I think the Habs are better than Boston, and definitely better than Florida, Buffalo, Detroit, Ottawa. They are not far from Toronto. So in a normal year, Tampa Bay would win the division, and Toronto, Montreal and Boston would be fighting it out for 2-3-4, probably in that order.
 
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BaseballCoach

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Yeah not suggesting they don't play their roles well...you're right, they're probably better at playing roles than the guys on the Leafs were.

But compare lineups...I found there was more depth scoring throughout the Leafs lineup in comparison.

And you're also right, kinda forgot about Kadri.
Kadri has done what exactly in the playoffs in his career?
 

ECWHSWI

TOUGHEN UP.
Oct 27, 2006
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During the few games he's not suspended. The leafs dumped him because, though he played well in the playoffs, he rarely played in the playoffs.
agree with the suspension thing, he'd still be a Leaf if not for that IMO.
 
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bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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If not for COVID, Habs miss the POs for the 5th time in 6 years. It would have been the 4th year in a row.
But win 2 PO rounds and he's GM of the year! :facepalm:

He's GM of the year because of all the moves he made. How can you dispute that, or that he should at least be in the running? Look at all the UFA's he signed this summer (Edmunson, Toffoli) or trades he made (Anderson great season, Domi horrible) or TDL deals (Staal - I loved it at the time, low cost, and great in playoffs so far). Also Allen as a backup was super solid, Perry doing great in playoffs, etc.

You can hate him all you want and think he sucks for past performances - but if "gm of the year" is about rewarding the GM who had the best year - he 100% should be among the favorites. I'd love to hear your response as to why not if you disagree.

As to the playoffs and Covid - sure, we don't make the playoffs last year without it. This year? Well - maybe we don't, maybe we do. You should never assume. Panthers suck every single season - they go off to a new division and are world beaters. I say they would have sucked in the Atlantic. You might be right though - but it's just speculation, and in the end doesn't really matter. We won in playoffs last year unexpectedly, and are doing even better so far this year
 

dcyhabs

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He's GM of the year because of all the moves he made. How can you dispute that, or that he should at least be in the running? Look at all the UFA's he signed this summer (Edmunson, Toffoli) or trades he made (Anderson great season, Domi horrible) or TDL deals (Staal - I loved it at the time, low cost, and great in playoffs so far). Also Allen as a backup was super solid, Perry doing great in playoffs, etc.

You can hate him all you want and think he sucks for past performances - but if "gm of the year" is about rewarding the GM who had the best year - he 100% should be among the favorites. I'd love to hear your response as to why not if you disagree.

As to the playoffs and Covid - sure, we don't make the playoffs last year without it. This year? Well - maybe we don't, maybe we do. You should never assume. Panthers suck every single season - they go off to a new division and are world beaters. I say they would have sucked in the Atlantic. You might be right though - but it's just speculation, and in the end doesn't really matter. We won in playoffs last year unexpectedly, and are doing even better so far this year

MB had a very good offseason this year. I'm quite surprised with Staal in the playoffs, quite a contrast with the regular season.

I still think MB needs someone above him to provide long term vision. Many of his moves have been good, the sum of the parts is less than the individual moves, with the possible exception of this off-season. He's improving over time and it's certainly not the time to fire him so as to display desire for success and hire a random guy with no experience.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Jun 12, 2007
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The dislike for Bergevin is evident in your back handed complement narrative. Proof? It's not Bergevin who is the coach and decided to sit KK and Caufield. It was Ducharme but you can't resist to blame Bergevin for it. Nonsense

Scratched our way to final four? We are less than 60 min's away from breaking a record from the 60's. Come on man.

By beating last year's 20th team...

NEXT!
 

Hannibal

Fear the Weber
Feb 11, 2007
10,269
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Always liked him and always defended him. He’s made a lot more of good moves than bad ones. No GM is perfect. This team is build by trades and ufa signing. It’s hard to do when you have such a bad director of amateur scouting like we do.

He is miles better than what we are used to and he’s the first to go out and change our smurfs mentality.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Jun 12, 2007
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It's kind of flawed approach when you consider he had a reset/retool and the strategy is a general trend upwards once the youth matures... like you said... takes time for them to settle.

Weber is a concern yes. Price is not in terms of age. Petry is a late bloomer and lean for his height and body size. He has proven to age well. The rest of the core is in a decent age gap. Aside from Weber, there is no concern.

Galchenyuk and Poehling had hype. We know what happened to Chucky. Poehling had a very good 2nd year as a pro. Same with Brook. Mete and DLR were really not hyped that much but some did. That don't mean that was the general consensus. Mete to me was decent as a depth guy but once I realized he was not generating offense with his skating, he was useless to me cause he is a liability in his own end... Look no further than Sandin and Dermott who we took advantage of. DLR was a depth bottom 6F at best probability indicated 4th line

This latest youth core on our team (Suzuki, Caufield, Romanov, KK) with others coming is nothing to be negative about and try to compare hype from previous years. That's walking the Earth with your head down all the time when the trends don't support it

Dude, stop talking about "trends" based on recency bias, itself based on beating midlevel teams who were both missing key players.

Want trends? Without Covid, it would've been 6 years without a playoff round won. Want more trends? Our pillars are all on the verge of decline due to age and there's no help in sight to replace their contribution.

Tell me about trends if we beat our opponent in next round. Tell me about trends if the team doesn't go back to the gutter once divisions are back to normal next year.
 
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