Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

[Whitesnake]

Thing is...if we don't go all the way this year...and miss the playoffs next year...what kind of redemption are we talking about? Is it really too far fetched to think that we might not make it next year?

Also, well his trades are paying out this year for sure. Most of his moves are too. Yet, while hockey isn't just a 1-guy effort, Eller won a Cup....Sergachev won a Cup, and if Vegas wins...Pacioretty would too.

In return, still active, we have Harris from the Eller deal (not directly but we used 1 pick to get him), Drouin, Suzuki and Norlinder that we got from trading our round 2 pick (which we could have picked Fagemo). So as of today, we did have some return. But clearly, the guys that went away were ready for immediate results.

 

[Whitesnake]

best case scenario...

we win the cup.
Molson promotes MB to President or VP hockey ops, so the two of them can hang out and bask in the glow of the success... and the spotlight takes up all their time so they stay out of the day to day management of the team...
we hire a competent GM to leverage the benefits that come with winning a cup to focus on building a strong contender around our core young guys (Suzuki/CC/JKO/Romanov/Evans), even if it means taking a step back for a year or two, and we enjoy a run of 4-6 years as a top 5 team in the league with hopefully a few deep playoff wins and another finals/cup

that would satisfy everyone, no?

Well in theory, it's all great. Still....if your idea is that we remove Bergie from the GM job to give it to someobdy more equipped....who chooses the GM again? It's him. If he can't choose players...how will he be able to choose the right guy?

 

[azcanuck]

If we win the Cup it means in the end MB did indeed know how to build a team to win.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I hate the PK Trade more than probably almost anyone here. I say this to show you that i'm not just a blind defender of Bergevin - I hated that move and fully blame him for it, and used to be a pretty vocal critic of his.

But Bergevin wasn't fired then. Nor after the horrible two following seasons either. And since 2018 - he's done a great job.

To do a player parallel. How good is MacKinnon as a player? He's ~so-so if you look at past 8 years. 560 points in 573 games, that's an ~80 point pace per season. Good, not spectacular.
But if you look at past 4 years only - MacKinnon is a 106 point player per 82 games. Spectacular, one of the best ones in league.

Nobody in their right mind will decide on Mack's value by looking at 8 years - just at past ~2-4 years. Why do so for a GM?

I think Bergevin has done a real good job since 2018 and I think that should more be the focus then 5+ years prior.

I respect that opinion and thank you for sharing details of your reasons

 

[Kudo Shinichi]

 

[Miller Time]

Well in theory, it's all great. Still....if your idea is that we remove Bergie from the GM job to give it to someobdy more equipped....who chooses the GM again? It's him. If he can't choose players...how will he be able to choose the right guy?

I've got minimal confidence in his decision-making... So fair point.

But the further removed from day to day roster decisions he is, the fewer bad decisions he gets to make so cross the fingers & hope the francophone he chooses is at least an upgrade on his awful tenure (which isn't exactly a high bar to reach!)

 

[Miller Time]

If we win the Cup it means in the end MB did indeed know how to build a team to win.

in the same way that Jean Perron is a cup-winning NHL head coach...

 

[Miller Time]

now do the Mark Scheifle character quotes... pre-last week

 

[Runner77]

if they can get Danault to sign a very similar contract to Toffoli I'd be really happy. He does not bring Toffoli's offense, especially goals, but he brings faceoff wins and great defense so the trade off is worth it.

For one, they should stop referring to Danault as a "two-way" player. There is only one way with the paucity of offense he brings.

That said, I think he'll be going for a high ask since there are bound to be some teams who will be willing to pay. Plus, he's represented by Meehan's firm and they drive a hard bargain. There will be no discounted contract.

 

[Runner77]

With all due respect, I'm afraid of disagreeing with you cause you will ignore again. We have had history there.

I can celebrate a final 4 but also consider that we beat the Leafs cause they had no Tavares. I think we still beat the Jets with Scheifele but not 4 straight. You don't have to agree on that and we usually don't see things the same.

I'm fully aware of the rollercoaster factor and how the general theme would be if we lost game 5 to the Leafs. I'm looking deeper than that. Like how I see the youth core rising and our ability to reinforce that after our vet ride ends.

Sorry, but I really don't get what you're saying and how it relates to my post.

Cheering for a team is the basic right of any fan.

Being able to express an opinion about the team's GM, is once again, an inherent function of any hockey forum.

I really don't see how these very fundamental and non controversial elements are incompatible.

I don't want to make a whole prolonged debate about something so basic. I guess you're not among those who believes that both things can co-exist for the same poster and if that's the case, it's fine by me. I have no desire to convince you of anything, so with all due respect, I will move on from this. Have a good one.

 

[Mr Mom]

I have wanted MB to be fired for a long time now. Tbh, when he kept MT, JJ and SL WAY past their due date. I wanted him gone. Those 3 coaches I felt really destroyed the team, and the development of all our young players.
BUT....... I want MB fired when we have an upgraded option.

If you don't like your job, you don't just quit.
You look for a better job while you're employed. When you find one, that's when you quit. So, you're able to make a smooth transition, and still pay your bills on time.

So..... IMO, NOW is when we should be looking for a MB upgrade. When we find it... thats when he should be fired.

 

[smcgreg]

If we win the Cup it means in the end MB did indeed know how to build a team to win.

I have not been a MB fan at all, but I don't see how there's any other way to look at it. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Two very steep hills to climb yet, so, that's putting the cart a tad bit ahead of the horse.

 

[Runner77]

I have not been a MB fan at all, but I don't see how there's any other way to look at it. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Two very steep hills to climb yet, so, that's putting the cart a tad bit ahead of the horse.

I think the pandemic, the weakened division and carried over unused cap space played a major role.

Remember that the Habs were still on their reset when they were parachuted into a play-in. Should Bergevin get credit for that?

Also, most of the players he signed would not have been as amenable to a deal with Montreal, but this year was different.

What will happen when the teams return to their usual divisions and a regular schedule? I think that’s the real test for MB.

Of course, MB has been very lucky in these playoffs. Maybe his luck will continue.

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Sadly, the team's playoffs performance will likely grant him an extension. He's been at the helm for almost a decade and I just think the organization needs a change of scenery.

The american teams will be tough to beat and Price has to be at his absolute finest. Toffoli would need to be clutch. I was pretty much certain that the Jets would falter, after one of their best players decided to annihilate an opponent with a nasty head blow. The Habs had built momentum after playing a Game 7 and the Jets decided to throw in the towel by gooning it up.

My wishlist would be for a new competent GM, despite this odd year's team performance.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not making any claims. I get the feeling you think I'm pumping the final 4 result when I said I wasn't.

What I think is if Bergevin is gone, the new GM likes his starting point. My area of focus is from the point where Molson decided not to fire him due to money he had to write off and how Bergevin was allowed to adjust and learn from mistakes. It was around the 2016/2017 season from what I remember. Today, I like how we have a good group of vets still around to mentor a rising youth core.

A full tank is not in the cards yet but in truth, it might come in a few seasons. We get rid of all vets after the current youth core matures and we pick in the top 10 for a year or two. I do think our GM (Bergevin or not) will ride the Price/Weber train for a bit yet

That's because you're looking at it from a ''what have you done for me lately'' point. Again, play under normal circumstances, we don't even make the POs. We beat out the favorite in the first round, but because we looked so bad for half the season and early in the POs, people did not give us much of a shot versus the Jets even if we finished with just 4pts less than them...that despite all those OT losses.
So I'm not so sure. Lose in the next round and that happy bubble will burst. Then you have Price possibly playing average in the season again, Weber...Chiarot..Eddy...can't play the same way in the regular season. You have Drouin who's completely MIA....Gallagher back to seemingly being spent...what's going on with Danault?...etc. And that's over an 82 game season with way more traveling.

A lot of people are rewriting things now because the Habs are on a very hot 7 game streak. That's all this is really, a 7 game win streak. The Northern division was wide open after the leafs, and as much as we had an awesome comeback, the talk after beating them is more about how some of their leaders completely failed to step up their game. Not to mention the loss of Tavares.
But because we owned a very lame Jets team, it's like we have a masterpiece under our hands.

All I said was, before I claim Bergevin to be this genius visionary, let me see the Habs actually get somewhere we haven't been since winning the cup and get through a top team of another division.
Habs have a big momentum now and hopefully they can carry this into next round, and if they do, then I'll get behind this super vision from our GM.

 

[ECWHSWI]

If we win the Cup it means in the end MB did indeed know how to build a team to win.

would you say Jean Perron is a great coach ?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

If we win the Cup it means in the end MB did indeed know how to build a team to win.

If I go into politics, I can become Prime Minister of Canada

See how hypotheticals work?

 

[smcgreg]

I think the pandemic, the weakened division and carried over unused cap space played a major role.

Remember that the Habs were still on their reset when they were parachuted into a play-in. Should Bergevin get credit for that?

Also, most of the players he signed would not have been as amenable to a deal with Montreal, but this year was different.

What will happen when the teams return to their usual divisions and a regular schedule? I think that’s the real test for MB.

Of course, MB has been very lucky in these playoffs. Maybe his luck will continue.

If you look at the quote I was responding to, it said, "If they win the cup"....... To me, if that happens, then you have to acknowledge that he did know how to build a team. You don't get lucky all the way to a cup. Sure luck can play a role along the way, but if the Habs get through the next two rounds, I will sit down to a full plate of crow and eat until I'm full.

I will say this,... I think n the first part of his tenure, MB was "playing not to lose". In the last couple years, I think he felt the heat and knew if he didn't do something, he was gone. As a result he was forced into being more assertive and the team is better for it. Whether he "learned" or did it out of desperation, I think he has been better the past couple of years. Maybe his best decision was firing Clode and hiring DD when he did. That was a ballsy move and I'm on board that it was the right move at this point.

Regardless, any GM that wins a cup deserves an extension and an acknowledgement that he knows what he's doing, whether he actually does or not.

As I said, long way to go before I need to sit down to a big plate of crow though.

 

[LaTenderness]

Lots of people criticize analytics GM's, but it looks like the Habs are built like a "Moneyball" team. We have a bunch of players who are pretty good at one or two areas of the game, but overall not great players on their own.

Armia is great on board battles
Byron is fast
Danault is good defensively
Lehkonen is good defensively
Anderson is tall
Gallagher is a workhorse
Chiarot/Edmunson/Weber are good defensively
Kulak is Kulak
Gus is good offensively
Toffoli has a good shot
Perry is great at making plays near the net
Kotkaniemi wins faceoffs (rn at least)
Staal is experienced


Guys like Petry, Suzuki, Caufield and Price are more well rounded and are better than average at multiple facets of the game.

Anderson is tall

 

[hockeyfan2k18]

I have wanted MB to be fired for a long time now. Tbh, when he kept MT, JJ and SL WAY past their due date. I wanted him gone. Those 3 coaches I felt really destroyed the team, and the development of all our young players.
BUT....... I want MB fired when we have an upgraded option.

If you don't like your job, you don't just quit.
You look for a better job while you're employed. When you find one, that's when you quit. So, you're able to make a smooth transition, and still pay your bills on time.

So..... IMO, NOW is when we should be looking for a MB upgrade. When we find it... thats when he should be fired.

he won’t go anywhere for a while. We’re stuck with him as long as Price stands on his head.

 

[bretpatrick7]

best case scenario...

we win the cup.
Molson promotes MB to President or VP hockey ops, so the two of them can hang out and bask in the glow of the success... and the spotlight takes up all their time so they stay out of the day to day management of the team...
we hire a competent GM to leverage the benefits that come with winning a cup to focus on building a strong contender around our core young guys (Suzuki/CC/JKO/Romanov/Evans), even if it means taking a step back for a year or two, and we enjoy a run of 4-6 years as a top 5 team in the league with hopefully a few deep playoff wins and another finals/cup

that would satisfy everyone, no?

Ok so let me get this straight. If we win the cup, you would hope MB is no longer the GM because he cant built a cup winning team. Is that about right? No wonder hab fans look like clowns sometimes, it's from these kinds of posts.

 

[Kriss E]

If you look at the quote I was responding to, it said, "If they win the cup"....... To me, if that happens, then you have to acknowledge that he did know how to build a team. You don't get lucky all the way to a cup. Sure luck can play a role along the way, but if the Habs get through the next two rounds, I will sit down to a full plate of crow and eat until I'm full.

I will say this,... I think n the first part of his tenure, MB was "playing not to lose". In the last couple years, I think he felt the heat and knew if he didn't do something, he was gone. As a result he was forced into being more assertive and the team is better for it. Whether he "learned" or did it out of desperation, I think he has been better the past couple of years. Maybe his best decision was firing Clode and hiring DD when he did. That was a ballsy move and I'm on board that it was the right move at this point.

Regardless, any GM that wins a cup deserves an extension and an acknowledgement that he knows what he's doing, whether he actually does or not.

As I said, long way to go before I need to sit down to a big plate of crow though.

Should the Bruins have trusted in Chiarelli after he won?
This Bergevin discussions is really showing me how poorly people analyze.
Oh..hot streak..Wow, what a great GM!
Miss the POs...Pfft...he sucks, fire his ass!

You can't just look at a single result and decide what's best for the future based solely on that.
You need to view the entire body of work, examine the circumstances/context leading to some of the decisions, how much went into planning, a structure, a vision, what does that look like moving forward, odds of repeating, oppositions, etc.
The Habs went into the POs as the 16th seed, if they win, that's a huge rarity. If we look at our point total, we don't even qualify for the POs in a normal season. That doesn't bode well for a repeat.
What would Bergevin's philosophy be for the team moving forward?

Winning should not automatically mean..extension and full credit. Sometimes it does, sometimes not so much.

 

[Miller Time]

Ok so let me get this straight. If we win the cup, you would hope MB is no longer the GM because he cant built a cup winning team. Is that about right? No wonder hab fans look like clowns sometimes, it's from these kinds of posts.

Wouldn't expect someone posting garbage like this to appreciate or understand nuance.

Enjoy the pom poms.

 

[abo9]

Thing is...if we don't go all the way this year...and miss the playoffs next year...what kind of redemption are we talking about? Is it really too far fetched to think that we might not make it next year?

Also, well his trades are paying out this year for sure. Most of his moves are too. Yet, while hockey isn't just a 1-guy effort, Eller won a Cup....Sergachev won a Cup, and if Vegas wins...Pacioretty would too.

In return, still active, we have Harris from the Eller deal (not directly but we used 1 pick to get him), Drouin, Suzuki and Norlinder that we got from trading our round 2 pick (which we could have picked Fagemo). So as of today, we did have some return. But clearly, the guys that went away were ready for immediate results.

Nobody should be surprised by missing the playoffs. I mean, Montreal was a bottom feeder just last year, had a pretty solid offseason that imo moved them to bubble playoff team.

Lots of question marks going into next season, biggest one being how the kids progress, but our D stays the same and a lot of support players are not signed in the forward group.

i can't see the Habs securing a 3rd spot or higher in our division, so we have to fight over the remaining 2 wildcards

 

[HabsDood]

People are still hating... The type that can't let go of an old girlfriend or somtn..