Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

[jaffy27]

Yeah Toffoli at 30 goals would be insane but id go around 25 goals + 25 assists. But like we need players that can brake into 65 points+ to make this roster go further.

your 65pt guys will be KK, Suzuki and Caufield....that's how it needs to go down.

 

[Runner77]

I love what Bergevin has done with the team in the last 3yrs, from the current players to the picks, the prospects, the coaches in Laval....was not happy with Ducharme but it would seem I'm eating crow for that right now lol

He made huge mistakes 4yrs ago when he signed Alzner and traded for Drouin.....but since then, I'd say all his moves have been beneficial to where we are today

So, how far do you think they should go on an extension? Would you say 3 years is enough?

 

[beowulf]

I heard he's dealing with an injury, same with Weber s0 I can excuse them for that.....ya.....8yrs....don't think that'll happen....4yrs max...maybe 5

if they can get Danault to sign a very similar contract to Toffoli I'd be really happy. He does not bring Toffoli's offense, especially goals, but he brings faceoff wins and great defense so the trade off is worth it.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I heard he's dealing with an injury, same with Weber s0 I can excuse them for that.....ya.....8yrs....don't think that'll happen....4yrs max...maybe 5

Who said that Weber and Anderson are having injuries? This seems like the perfect excuse in Montreal when someone doesnt perform. Don't think Matthews and Marner were injured

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

your 65pt guys will be KK, Suzuki and Caufield....that's how it needs to go down.

For KK to be a 60 points + player , will need to have other linemates than Josh Anderon and Paul Byron to begin with.

I think the Toffoli-Suzuki-Caufield is a great line but KK has nothing for him. Anderson is a literal brick right now

 

[Habs Halifax]

I agree......but if we win the cup then the extension is automatic in my opinion

But your points are valid and I'm buying your brand

I've paid attention to what have have said over the years. I think we both look at the pros and cons and don't get enough credit for it. Someone just called you out for being on the fence where you loosened your support in recent years and they thought you were on the "hate" side now. It's a bunch of nonsense

The extension is coming and I fear the Bergevin war is going into hyper drive. I rather look at the direction we are on over the last few years in terms of a rising youth core with the vets still around. It's exactly why we are in final 4 right now (with luck or no luck).

I agree with you on where we stand today. I also like our direction but the work is not done

 

[beowulf]

Another thing we have to worry about is the age of a number of the big names on the team...will the young guys progress fast enough before the older guys decline even more? Weber is not the dman he was and is only going to get slower. Price is soon 33 I believe. Petry is 32.

Big holes potentially this off season include Tatar, Danault, Armia, Allen if he goes in the expansion draft. And if not Allen who else might be lost to the Kraken.

Then there are the two young guys needing contracts Kotkaniemi and Lekohnen who has shown himself to be a playoff warrior.

All these have to be decided on before even adding anyone next to help the team move forward and all under a flat cap. Thankfully Alzner's lost cap space goes down by about $2M I think it is.

 

[dinodebino]

I've paid attention to what have have said over the years. I think we both look at the pros and cons and don't get enough credit for it. Someone just called you out for being on the fence where you loosened your support in recent years and they thought you were on the "hate" side now. It's a bunch of nonsense

The extension is coming and I fear the Bergevin war is going into hyper drive. I rather look at the direction we are on over the last few years in terms of a rising youth core with the vets still around. It's exactly why we are in final 4 right now (with luck or no luck).

I agree with you on where we stand today. I also like our direction but the work is not done

Oh! The extention (min 3 years) is coming for sure. Let's go to 69 parts!

 

[Habs Halifax]

No it doesn't. I'm a fan of the team. I cheer for the team to win and celebrate their wins.

I should not be called for that in another thread that analyzes Bergevin's tenure.

You can both celebrate a Hab win but not see eye to eye on how Bergevin has managed the club. It's not incompatible.

With all due respect, I'm afraid of disagreeing with you cause you will ignore again. We have had history there.

I can celebrate a final 4 but also consider that we beat the Leafs cause they had no Tavares. I think we still beat the Jets with Scheifele but not 4 straight. You don't have to agree on that and we usually don't see things the same.

I'm fully aware of the rollercoaster factor and how the general theme would be if we lost game 5 to the Leafs. I'm looking deeper than that. Like how I see the youth core rising and our ability to reinforce that after our vet ride ends.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I 100% agree with you on that. But Drouin and Anderson were not the trade it was Domi. Domi was on pace for the same amount of point but still you are right , his playstyle is something we needed but the thing is , it's like having 2 gallagher , yes they are good players but the contracts are still a bit too heavy , alot more on Gallagher's case.
Also im still waiting for your reply on my question.

Talking to a few people now. What was your question again? I'm about to head home so I ensure I am not ignoring but might not get around to reply. My HF board days come and go these days

 

[dinodebino]

I see the last real Bergy thread was closed, so here's a new one. If there is a new one, mods please merge.

LeBrun: Canadiens' Marc Bergevin praised for vision by NHL GMs, rival coaches impressed with team's play

The title, tho. Redemption Song is such a classic that it hurts my brain to think I have it associated with Bergevin.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh! The extention (min 3 years) is coming for sure. Let's go to 69 parts!

3 years is a good number. 5 would give some of our fans a heart attack

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Talking to a few people now. What was your question again? I'm about to head home so I ensure I am not ignoring but might not get around to reply. My HF board days come and go these days

Does Bergevin 10 years resume is worth an extension?

That was my question and please don't think just because of this special season due to covid.

 

[dinodebino]

I see the last real Bergy thread was closed, so here's a new one. If there is a new one, mods please merge.

LeBrun: Canadiens' Marc Bergevin praised for vision by NHL GMs, rival coaches impressed with team's play

Is there a 'free' version of this report? Just asking.

 

[bobholly39]

So, how far do you think they should go on an extension? Would you say 3 years is enough?

3 year is perfect imo. You don't go more than that (that's dumb, too risky), and less....what's even the point? If you decide to stick with him - I think 3 years is the right fit.

I know I've been saying this for a while but - nobody on here hates the PK trade more than I do. His failure to fire Therrien in-time, his biggest failure. Despite all of that and all of my issues with him - I think he's done a fantastic job since 2018. One of the better gms in the league in that timeframe.

Someone in the last thread said "Gms are human - they learn too". Maybe that's the case, maybe he's gotten better with time. Maybe it's luck. Maybe it's a combination, who knows. But a lot of his moves have been very positive past 3 years.

And people are always saying 'you can't look at individual moves, it's the overall vision that matters'. Well - I'd say we've done pretty well there too.

3 years ago we had:

- Really bad team drama (Pacioretty, etc)
- No centers. We didn't have a single top 6 centers
- Horrible prospect pool. Not a single prospect worth getting really excited about

Today we have:

- No team drama (Drouin had issues - but this was very well handled)
- Great center depth. No truly elite #1C (no McDavid/Mack), but we have Suzuki/KK/Danault - and even were rich enough to afford to trade Domi. Have Evans/Phoeling also, and even Staal was a great short-term add for playoffs
- Great prospect pool (including recent graduates like Caufield, Romanov, KK, Suzuki). Voted one of the better ones in league

Yeah - I think he's done a good job. I wouldn't have a problem extending him.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Does Bergevin 10 years resume is worth an extension?

That was my question and please don't think just because of this special season due to covid.

I stayed at work just for you bud. I already answered that.

- You need to blame Molson for not firing him in 2016/2017 when he was trending very badly with the mistakes he made.
- You need to consider that there is two halfs. Before and after his reset/retool.
- How do you see the moves since his reset/retool point in time and do you feel he has not learned from his mistakes?

I feel you think he has not adapted and learned from his mistakes. I don't agree with that which is our standstill. I am confident in saying that a new GM would like his starting point today. That reveals to me that Bergevin is not the GM he was from 2012-2016/17.

The 10 years has to be broken down. It's Molson's fault he didn't want to write off $25M+ when his extension didn't even start yet. Because he didn't, there is a 2nd half or back 1/3 to evaluate now (like it or not)

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Lets wait and see.

What I do see though is one of the most dynamic young cores I've seen and cupboards that are pretty overflowing and a bunch more picks to come. The top end of our prospect list might be a bit ho hum in a vacuum but not in the context of the kids that are on the team already.

Guhle, Norlinder, Poehling, Primeau, Harris, Mysak, Struble, etc. etc. They all have impressive pro potential with varying degrees of very probable high-ish ceilings. Just don't come at me with the 'Tinordi, Dietz, Ellis, Kristo did too' arguments. These kids are better and have shown more. No guarantees of course but there's just much more promise.

I'm pretty excited.

 

[Habs Halifax]

So, how far do you think they should go on an extension? Would you say 3 years is enough?

I originally thought it would be 5 years but after listening to some of the comments on our boards, 3 years is the right number. I don't like our fan base being divided cause of our GM to be honest. I feel 5 years is going to set off a few people and more distraction with our fan energy of the team we all love

3 years and he rides out the Price train while we watch the kids grow and there is no mortgaging of the future in the span. Can we all tolerate that? I think we can. It's what we have done in the last 3 years and the youth core is starting to take shape. More work to do yet

 

[Redux91]

Wellp, we have to come to grips hes not going anywhere lol, fine

Just fix what needs to be fixed asap for the REAL next level
Top6 LW
1LD
Decide what to do for 4C : Staal, Getzlaf, Poehling
We're not far.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I stayed at work just for you bud. I already answered that.

- You need to blame Molson for not firing him in 2016/2017 when he was trending very badly with the mistakes he made.
- You need to consider that there is two halfs. Before and after his reset/retool.
- How do you see the moves since his reset/retool point in time and do you feel he has not learned from his mistakes?

I feel you think he has not adapted and learned from his mistakes. I don't agree with that which is our standstill. I am confident in saying that a new GM would like his starting point today. That reveals to me that Bergevin is not the GM he was from 2012-2016/17.

The 10 years has to be broken down. It's Molson's fault he didn't want to write off $25M+ when his extension didn't even start yet. Because he didn't, there is a 2nd half or back 1/3 to evaluate now (like it or not)

Don't forget his contract is done next year.
You wait for a normal season before you fire/extend him?

 

[abo9]

Lots of people criticize analytics GM's, but it looks like the Habs are built like a "Moneyball" team. We have a bunch of players who are pretty good at one or two areas of the game, but overall not great players on their own.

Armia is great on board battles
Byron is fast
Danault is good defensively
Lehkonen is good defensively
Anderson is tall
Gallagher is a workhorse
Chiarot/Edmunson/Weber are good defensively
Kulak is Kulak
Gus is good offensively
Toffoli has a good shot
Perry is great at making plays near the net
Kotkaniemi wins faceoffs (rn at least)
Staal is experienced


Guys like Petry, Suzuki, Caufield and Price are more well rounded and are better than average at multiple facets of the game.

 

[bobholly39]

Does Bergevin 10 years resume is worth an extension?

That was my question and please don't think just because of this special season due to covid.

I hate the PK Trade more than probably almost anyone here. I say this to show you that i'm not just a blind defender of Bergevin - I hated that move and fully blame him for it, and used to be a pretty vocal critic of his.

But Bergevin wasn't fired then. Nor after the horrible two following seasons either. And since 2018 - he's done a great job.

To do a player parallel. How good is MacKinnon as a player? He's ~so-so if you look at past 8 years. 560 points in 573 games, that's an ~80 point pace per season. Good, not spectacular.
But if you look at past 4 years only - MacKinnon is a 106 point player per 82 games. Spectacular, one of the best ones in league.

Nobody in their right mind will decide on Mack's value by looking at 8 years - just at past ~2-4 years. Why do so for a GM?

I think Bergevin has done a real good job since 2018 and I think that should more be the focus then 5+ years prior.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Lets wait and see.

What I do see though is one of the most dynamic young cores I've seen and cupboards that are pretty overflowing and a bunch more picks to come. The top end of our prospect list might be a bit ho hum in a vacuum but not in the context of the kids that are on the team already.

Guhle, Norlinder, Poehling, Primeau, Harris, Mysak, Struble, etc. etc. They all have impressive pro potential with varying degrees of very probable high-ish ceilings. Just don't come at me with the 'Tinordi, Dietz, Ellis, Kristo did too' arguments. These kids are better and have shown more. No guarantees of course but there's just much more promise.

I'm pretty excited.

Man, I 1000% agree. Frig off with the Tinordi, Dietz, Ellis, Kristo comments. This group is loaded with solid grade B's, B+, and fringe grade A's with very good resumes in pre and post draft years. Our Laval team will have a great winning culture for years to come! And we don't have to rush young players anymore cause we have holes to fill. It's has taken a while but we are here now

 

[Habs Halifax]

Don't forget his contract is done next year.
You wait for a normal season before you fire/extend him?

Read post 38. Talks about we should be hiring a President and if I was him, what would I do with Bergevin. Not saying I want to be President, just how I would manage that particular situation. No extension till December or January and what I would be watching out for. It's in that post. Think I got the post number right.

Molson needs to start the process now. Change his title to CEO and hire someone like Bobby Smith to be President. He knows how to run a business and he knows hockey. Make it his problem. You don't like Bobby Smith? Bob Gainey can do that job.

 

[Miller Time]

Does Bergevin 10 years resume is worth an extension?

That was my question and please don't think just because of this special season due to covid.

best case scenario...

we win the cup.
Molson promotes MB to President or VP hockey ops, so the two of them can hang out and bask in the glow of the success... and the spotlight takes up all their time so they stay out of the day to day management of the team...
we hire a competent GM to leverage the benefits that come with winning a cup to focus on building a strong contender around our core young guys (Suzuki/CC/JKO/Romanov/Evans), even if it means taking a step back for a year or two, and we enjoy a run of 4-6 years as a top 5 team in the league with hopefully a few deep playoff wins and another finals/cup

that would satisfy everyone, no?