Marc Bergevin: 5 stages of grief edition

[Perrah]

Arvidson???

3 goals 13 points in 22 games is not impressive at all. And the eye test is not any better. He had kind of a rough playoffs run offensively speaking.

They used period and case closed. Nothing to see here.

 

[Kriss E]

Like the man said. No way to prove it it.

But I personally think that as long as Rinne played the way he did in the first 3 rounds....Preds are in the finals with PK or Weber. Or Kieth, or Seabrook , or Doughty or any number of top notch D.

The key was RinneS stellar for the Preds. When he lost that the Preds were toast.

Also the Habs lost in play offs rather easily with PK and with Weber.

Correct, but none of what you said refutes my point.

A team identified a player to be a better fit for the style of game they want to play.
They make a trade where they swap Dman and get that player they feel will help them achieve better success.
Result...They end up making the finals.

There simply isn't an argument to be made that this was not EXACTLY what the Preds wanted out of this trade.
Pretty much everything they could have hoped to happen thanks to this trade, actually happened.
When Weber was there, their defensive gameplan revolved around him. How do you push for a more controlling, fast, mobile, puck moving rotation from your bottom 4 guys when you end up playing a Dman that doesn't quite fit that mold for close to 30min per game??

For the record, this is not meant to be a knock on Weber. This isn't a Weber vs Subban discussion. This is about the Preds identifying a style they want to play and getting a player that helps them perform better in that new system.
Bergevin had hoped for the same to happen here, except he clearly did not have a plan. He brought him here to help with leadership and because he fit the style Therrien wanted us to play...Well, that totally did not work as Bergevin was forced to fire Therrien to prevent us from another major collapse, Weber did not seem to provide any type of extra leadership to prevent this from happening, nor did he seem to be any kind of help to Pacioretty as we saw the Captain have one of his worst POs to date.
So as I said, I don't think Weber in Nashville helps them reach the cup because you end up playing a guy almost half the game despite him not really being a fit for your new style. On the flip side, I don't think Subban changes anything to the Habs PO and we still lose in the first round because we weren't going anywhere with Danault centering the first line and our best forward being a no-show.

 

[Harry22]

Brian Wilde is not very smart. Has a twitter feud with him last night. I kept bringing facts into why Bergevin is not a very good GM and all he had as an answer was look at his W and L. All of that without addressing any of the facts I was throwing at him. No wonder dude got fired from CTV.

 

[DangerDave]

The Preds targeted a player like Subban because they felt his game would be a better fit for the style of game they wanted their team to play.
If a team identified a playmaker as a piece that would better fit their team and made a trade moving a scorer for one, then went on to the Cup Finals, making it a franchise record, there would be no debate about how this trade was absolutely key for them and that without it, there's a good chance they don't make it.

They identified a style they wanted to play.
They seaked to improve their team by trading their long time Captain for a player they judged would be a better fit.
They reach the finals, a franchise record, just 2 wins from a Cup.
....Conclusion....Bah..That trade changed nothing!

I mean I get some people are just fed up of PK talk so they just don't want to admit that he actually is a positive addition and helped the Preds more so than Weber helped us..But it's a bit silly.
No. That doesn't mean PK is the only one responsible for the success of the Preds. It doesn't even mean he was their best player during the POs. All I said was that he definitely helped them. I mean, that is specifically why they went after him and it paid off.
Would the same have happened with Weber there? No. I don't think so. They moved him so they could get a guy that better fit their system, and it lead to better results. It could not be clearer for anyone.
So if you are unwilling to even admit that, then I don't think there is much rationality in your thought process on this.

Weber may have been our best player though. You can't really blame the team's innabilty to score on him. He had 1 below average game but other than that, he was a force out there.

We've had Subban for years and didn't do squat. Putting the blame on a single player is ridiculous. You really can't tell how the preds would have done with Weber. For all we know they could have won. They could have also had a second round exit.

The real issue was never Subban or Weber. Its guys like Patches, Plek, Markov and Galchenyuk who we rely on for scoring that just arent getting it done. Look what happened when we had cammy tearing it up. We went to the finals. If someone like Patches could do the same, I have no doubt we would have demolished the Rangers with Weber or Subban

 

[Wats]

Bergevin takes credit for wins from 2012-2015 after making very minimal additions to roster. Poile makes major swap, people argue that move did not have a major impact on the team reaching Finals. Interesting to see whether it's the same people who share both opinions.

 

[Harry22]

Hasek got the closest in 99 with the Sabres. How he didn't win the Conn Smythe I'll never know. I guess the league was tired of Hasek winning everything in the 90s.

Yea Hasek was pretty damn close in 1999. Giguere was closer in 2003 though, just one win shy.

 

[Harry22]

Bergevin takes credit for wins from 2012-2015 after making very minimal additions to roster. Poile makes major swap, same people argue that move did not have a major impact on the team reaching Finals.

Yup mention that on twitter to Brian Wilde and other sheep and you get rebuttals like it's not easy to be a GM + look at his record.

 

[habsgirl5000]

The worst part is that many of the defenders will say things like "our team still has young players" and "you don't know who our GM will acquire to make us a contender". However nobody will acknowledge that many of the bottom teams are now trending up.

I'm thinking of (just in the EAST) as teams that are trending up:

-Toronto
-Philadelphia
-Buffalo
-Carolina

all those teams you list will blow by us while we stand still,

 

[Wats]

all those teams you list will blow by us while we stand still,

Yeah but if MB has a voodoo doll he can make sure enough teams crash and burn.

 

[Sorinth]

Correct, but none of what you said refutes my point.

A team identified a player to be a better fit for the style of game they want to play.
They make a trade where they swap Dman and get that player they feel will help them achieve better success.
Result...They end up making the finals.

There simply isn't an argument to be made that this was not EXACTLY what the Preds wanted out of this trade.
Pretty much everything they could have hoped to happen thanks to this trade, actually happened.
When Weber was there, their defensive gameplan revolved around him. How do you push for a more controlling, fast, mobile, puck moving rotation from your bottom 4 guys when you end up playing a Dman that doesn't quite fit that mold for close to 30min per game??

For the record, this is not meant to be a knock on Weber. This isn't a Weber vs Subban discussion. This is about the Preds identifying a style they want to play and getting a player that helps them perform better in that new system.
Bergevin had hoped for the same to happen here, except he clearly did not have a plan. He brought him here to help with leadership and because he fit the style Therrien wanted us to play...Well, that totally did not work as Bergevin was forced to fire Therrien to prevent us from another major collapse, Weber did not seem to provide any type of extra leadership to prevent this from happening, nor did he seem to be any kind of help to Pacioretty as we saw the Captain have one of his worst POs to date.
So as I said, I don't think Weber in Nashville helps them reach the cup because you end up playing a guy almost half the game despite him not really being a fit for your new style. On the flip side, I don't think Subban changes anything to the Habs PO and we still lose in the first round because we weren't going anywhere with Danault centering the first line and our best forward being a no-show.

I'll differentiate between plan and vision. The vision is how he wants the team to play, the plan is how he plans to actually acquire the players that fit his vision. Bergevin's never had a functional plan, the build through the draft plan was nullified by how well the team played and since then he's not had a coherent plan, and that seems true to this day.

In terms of vision, in the past it seemed to change year to year. However since the Weber trade his vision has seemed more consistent. So the stylistic change of going from Subban to Weber was continued this year. We got rid of Beaulieu & Markov and went after Alzner while prioritizing Benn. So it's clear he's valuing how good they are defensively and being steady/reliable players over things like puck movement or production from the backend. Even the Sergachev trade is part of it, Sergachev doesn't fit the mold of how he wants his D-corps to look like and so was traded. I'd even argue dumping Therrien and going after Julien is part of it as Julien is seen as one of the best defensive minded coaches in the league.

I think surrounding Price with a group of steady defensive-minded defenceman and relying on the forwards to score all the goals is outdated model and ends in failure. Though we probably will make the playoffs fairly consistently.

 

[Tighthead]

Brian Wilde is not very smart. Has a twitter feud with him last night. I kept bringing facts into why Bergevin is not a very good GM and all he had as an answer was look at his W and L. All of that without addressing any of the facts I was throwing at him. No wonder dude got fired from CTV.

Wilde used to be much more critical, and generally thoughtful. I thought he got a little weird when he wrote that Therrien is "not a good person". Sometime in the last year or so, he became very pro MB. I don't mind that position, but like Jack Todd he acts like thinking anything else is crazy and he is incapable of having a reasoned discussion.

Being a GM is hard, likely more complicated than we can really appreciate. No GM bats 1.000. Most reasonable people can accept this. However he and Todd just resort to the most basic and arrogant talking points and refuse to consider any criticism. Complete lack of nuance.

 

[jaffy27]

please forgive us for wanting something better then 2 first round exits. Forgive us for voicing our displeasure of the current management who despite stating they wanted to build via the draft has kept SL in the farm team.

Forgive us for not wanting to be the middle of the pack. Forgive us for not wanting to let MB have another 5 seasons before we consider his plan a "failure"

" Just give it another season"
"Trades are hard"
"Its on me"
"Micheal is the kind of guy you want in a foxhole with"
"We are a playoff team with Carey price"
"I'm going to shore up our offense with 3rd and 4th line acquisitions"

playstation memes, hiding behind plants, suits.

How bad does it have to get around here before you people finally turn on Marc? What is coup de grâce that will finally turn you into a Marc Hater?

In his last 5 seasons, we have ridden Carey Price ( CP31 was always MT's plan) to one eastern conference final. Two first round exits and one second round exit. Every Exit clearly being out played and outscored. Lastly we have the season without Carey and was had the largest collapse in Habs history.

And you people are OK with this?
DO you really think we are going to be able to contend against the Pens, Caps with this lineup? We will barely beat out a first round opponent with our line up.

Yet this is fine for you. Get to the playoffs, its all good. Mediocore, middle of the pack, 50/50, First round exit specialists.

This is not fine for me. We aren't the Arizona Coyotes, Hurricanes.
This is the Habs. I expect the team to always be improving. Based on that track record of the last 5 seasons under Marc , you cannot say we are improving. I Don't know what we are doing, but getting incrementally better to become a contender is NOT what is happening on this team.

The Montreal Carey Prices, The Montreal Pretenders. The Montreal Capspacers
But ya, Marc's a great GM, Give him anotehr couple of seasons. lets wait to see what he does with that capspace, I heard JT is coming to montreal

Sounds like 29 other year end pressers.....trades are hard is said by pretty much every other GM in the league, maybe next year is said by 29 other GMs........the problem here is I'm starting to believe that many many posters don't listen to other GMs talk. Some are better no doubt, some are less candid in front of the camera, some melt down, but overall, it's the same

 

[jaffy27]

all those teams you list will blow by us while we stand still,

Okay....we'll remember this, can't wait to see philly, and Buffalo, and Toronto and Carolina blow right by us at Mach 2.0.....looks like we're finishing 12th in the conference

 

[Schwang]

Regular season doesn't matter. Are the Rangers as good as the Pens Hawks, Kings? Are the current bruins same level as the habs? Why count the past 5 seasons when we have 1 Dman that was on our team from 2016 ONE, and not a single dman that the habs developed.

Playoff success is the goal but u still have to make the playoffs so regular season matters. Not to split hairs but we did develop streit

 

[Kriss E]

I'll differentiate between plan and vision. The vision is how he wants the team to play, the plan is how he plans to actually acquire the players that fit his vision. Bergevin's never had a functional plan, the build through the draft plan was nullified by how well the team played and since then he's not had a coherent plan, and that seems true to this day.

In terms of vision, in the past it seemed to change year to year. However since the Weber trade his vision has seemed more consistent. So the stylistic change of going from Subban to Weber was continued this year. We got rid of Beaulieu & Markov and went after Alzner while prioritizing Benn. So it's clear he's valuing how good they are defensively and being steady/reliable players over things like puck movement or production from the backend. Even the Sergachev trade is part of it, Sergachev doesn't fit the mold of how he wants his D-corps to look like and so was traded. I'd even argue dumping Therrien and going after Julien is part of it as Julien is seen as one of the best defensive minded coaches in the league.

I think surrounding Price with a group of steady defensive-minded defenceman and relying on the forwards to score all the goals is outdated model and ends in failure. Though we probably will make the playoffs fairly consistently.

That's possible, inquiring on possibly getting Emelin back would also fit that idea. But he also apparently made an offer to Markov, got Streit and Jerabek is of that mold too.

To be honest, there are too many inconsistencies in his decisions for me to really believe he's got a clear vision here.

 

[jaffy27]

Close, it's a 777

And I know this place lol

Ahhhh....hard to tell from that angle, I knew it was a Boeing Wide body though. The triple set landing gear would've given it away vs the double set of the 767, cool pick amigo.

 

[PaulD]

don't care about basketball.

LMAO !

 

[HabsDood]

Preds > Habs before and after the trade. Subban and Weber trade didn't change that. Blackhawks were in the Preds way for many years and they were hit hard with the players they lost. That's why the Preds were able to go on a deep run. Come on man!

Right on

 

[Habs Halifax]

Wilde used to be much more critical, and generally thoughtful. I thought he got a little weird when he wrote that Therrien is "not a good person". Sometime in the last year or so, he became very pro MB. I don't mind that position, but like Jack Todd he acts like thinking anything else is crazy and he is incapable of having a reasoned discussion.

Being a GM is hard, likely more complicated than we can really appreciate. No GM bats 1.000. Most reasonable people can accept this. However he and Todd just resort to the most basic and arrogant talking points and refuse to consider any criticism. Complete lack of nuance.

Don't agree. The level of criticism in Montreal lately is out of control. There are certainly some reasons (as with every NHL team) but the level this has been taken too is not warranted IMO. Most people labeled "Supporter or Believers" are simply taking a reasonable and realistic approach to evaluation. The people who are not happy with results have exaggerated how bad this Team is to astronomical levels. Talk about lack of nuance!!! Those who don't support this team are just the ones who are the loudest at the moment throwing anybody under the bus on their path to prove this team sucks. It's just not right. The Habs are a very good team with a few missing pieces. Will we address this? Hard to say but this is no reason to throw our team under the bus. I give credit to those who stand against it and I will too!

 

[HabsDood]

Ahhhh....hard to tell from that angle, I knew it was a Boeing Wide body though. The triple set landing gear would've given it away vs the double set of the 767, cool pick amigo.

It's a 300ER


I can tell you know aircrafts

My fav is the 789 for all it's advanced technologies and looks

 

[habsgirl5000]

Sounds like 29 other year end pressers.....trades are hard is said by pretty much every other GM in the league, maybe next year is said by 29 other GMs........the problem here is I'm starting to believe that many many posters don't listen to other GMs talk. Some are better no doubt, some are less candid in front of the camera, some melt down, but overall, it's the same

other GMs do not tell straight out lies though

MB vowed PK would not be traded, then he traded him,

MB vowed he was going to build through the draft, he then trades draft picks AWAY,

MB vowed he will not sell or trade the future for today, then he goes and trades our best prospect for "today"

i could go on and on, bottom line is you can not trust one word out of his mouth,

 

[Kriss E]

Weber may have been our best player though. You can't really blame the team's innabilty to score on him. He had 1 below average game but other than that, he was a force out there.

Sure, he had good POs.

We've had Subban for years and didn't do squat. Putting the blame on a single player is ridiculous. You really can't tell how the preds would have done with Weber. For all we know they could have won. They could have also had a second round exit.

Sure, and if that's all the thought process you want to put into it, then that's your prerogative.
But at the end of the day, the Preds felt Subban was a better fit for the style of game they were pursuing, and they went to the Finals. You can spin around in any direction you want but those are the facts.

As for Weber here, I have repeated in the past few posts how I don't think Subban would have changed anything if he were here instead of Weber during the last POs.
So as I said, this isn't a Weber vs Subban discussion. This is simply giving credit to the Preds for getting a player they found would help them more, and it lead to their best finish in history.

The real issue was never Subban or Weber. Its guys like Patches, Plek, Markov and Galchenyuk who we rely on for scoring that just arent getting it done. Look what happened when we had cammy tearing it up. We went to the finals. If someone like Patches could do the same, I have no doubt we would have demolished the Rangers with Weber or Subban

Little correction as you know, but we didn't make the finals with Cammy, we went to the ECF.
That said, again, Bergevin went after Weber because he thought he's a better fit for our team and that it would help guys like Patches. It didn't quite work out that way.
That's not Weber's fault. It doesn't mean he didn't have good POs, he did.

 

[Sorinth]

That's possible, inquiring on possibly getting Emelin back would also fit that idea. But he also apparently made an offer to Markov, got Streit and Jerabek is of that mold too.

To be honest, there are too many inconsistencies in his decisions for me to really believe he's got a clear vision here.

Markov is still relatively good defensively so it's no surprise there was interest, however from everything we know about the negotiations it's clear Bergevin didn't value him as much as we have in the past, likely because the production was no longer seen as being as important. If you don't value the production much it's easy to see why you would make an offer, but just not a good one especially compared to what Markov was making before.

For Jerabek it's a free asset, whenever there is a hyped Euro or NCAA like him virtually every team is in on it. These guys have value, and are cheap. At the end of the day you can turn around and flip him for something you do want like we did with Sekac. So I suspect it's more about not turning down a bargain then him seeing them as a key part of the team. Same for Streit but to a lesser extent.

 

[HabsDood]

Okay....we'll remember this, can't wait to see philly, and Buffalo, and Toronto and Carolina blow right by us at Mach 2.0.....looks like we're finishing 12th in the conference

Where were those teams the last 4-5 years anyway..

 

[Habs Halifax]

Markov is still relatively good defensively so it's no surprise there was interest, however from everything we know about the negotiations it's clear Bergevin didn't value him as much as we have in the past, likely because the production was no longer seen as being as important. If you don't value the production much it's easy to see why you would make an offer, but just not a good one especially compared to what Markov was making before.

For Jerabek it's a free asset, whenever there is a hyped Euro or NCAA like him virtually every team is in on it. These guys have value, and are cheap. At the end of the day you can turn around and flip him for something you do want like we did with Sekac. So I suspect it's more about not turning down a bargain then him seeing them as a key part of the team. Same for Streit but to a lesser extent.

I think letting Markov go at the age of 39 (when the next playoffs start) was not a bad move. If Markov was looking for 2 years at $6M per year, what was he asking for one year? $7M? If that was the case, I think it's time we move on sooner rather than later.

As for Radulov. That is hard to say. Was he interested in signing with the Habs for the same deal he got in Dallas? Who knows. Personally, I think Bergevin work hard to get him back but was not willing to overpay for a player who lost steam as the season went along and is in his decline years. Throwing money at players in decline years works out how much? The success rate is not good.

We are smarter to use our cap space on a younger player to add to our core. Lets see who that will be... It's going to take time and more patience unfortunately