Marc Bergevin: 5 stages of grief edition

[Scriptor]

As already pointed out after your earlier "wait and see" posts

MB has had six summers.....SPLAT !

No mystery here. He peaked at his own level of incompetence long ago.

I understand it's case closed for you. So be it. Is there anything left for you to look forward to, other than Bergevin getting fired? Will you be watching the games? Casually? With interest? If so, in what, exactly?

I don't begrudge your impression of how things are for the team, but I always wonder what's left for those who claim all's gone to hell and there's no coming back. No hope, nothing doing...

Please enlighten me.

 

[LaP]

 

[Kriss E]

I know it's long exposé, but it shows the mechanics of how Cap space can perhaps get a deal done where it might otherwise not get done, and that's considering a not so large toxic Cap hit passed on by our trading partner. I'm not here to sell the value of Gallagher, De La Rose and a 2nd rounder for RNH and Fayne. What's important is the dynamics at work, so arguing semantics about which player is worth this or not worth that is a waste of time, IMO.

You didn't have to create a scenario to explain how an exchange could work. Everyone knows you can play around the cap and bargain deals. You can allude to Clarkson vs Horton trade to demonstrate how teams can swap bad deals.
But I asked for a plausible scenario. You just mentioned how the names involved are not important because you are very well aware that there's no way Edmonton would trade RNH for Gallagher and DLR. Not in a million years.
So yes, I understand the idea that a team's demands can lower in value because they are in a desperate position to create more cap space and want to send a horrible contract the other way along with a top 2 center.
I get this idea buddy, you didn't need to draw random names behind it. But what you are mentioning is extremely rare, actually I can't even recall the last time a team traded a top 2 center + bad contract for a rather cheap return.
We could have had a top 2 center this summer with Johanson traded from the caps. We passed. Why? We passed on Hanzal. Why?
You honestly think it's because Bergevin has some special complicated scheme to lure a better top 2 center from some team while taking on a bad contract??

I get the idea. I just think it's quite far fetched and highly unlikely to happen. So really, I don't see the point to even have this as a possibility.

Other teams might be willing to take less in return for a coveted (but expensive) C, but would have a larger toxic contract, perhaps extending longer than one season, to move in exchange for taking less than one of our top forwards (Pacioretty, Galchenyuk, Drouin) and agreeing to take more/better draft picks, along with Gallagher and a prospect, or whatever.

Nobody is going to trade a top 2 center for a lower value if the toxic contract is only for a year, or even two. It quite frankly does not make much sense unless they are incredibly desperate for cap space, and I can't think of any team who would do that.
This is why I asked for an actual plausible scenario. Who out there is so desperate to rid themselves of a salary that they would include and lower the value of a top 2 center?

There could be some opportunities out there for Bergevin that aren't so obvious at a glance and may require the Cap flexibility to get them done.

Sure. There also was so very obvious opportunities that he missed out on that didn't require much cap flexibility.

I also don't believe that a team would give a valuable C, even if they were deep enough at C to part with him, without asking for a more established NHL roster player in return and I know that it would mean salary/Cap hit heading the other way, and I think that I've covered that in my off the top example. However, in the same way, we can't just assume that EDM or any other team trading a C to Montreal would just gladly take Plekanec's 6M contract off our hands, just because it would've helped keep Markov and land a top-6C at the same time.

Well if you don't believe it...why even mention it and argue about its possibility.
As I said, trading for McDavid is technically possible, but I don't believe it will ever happen, so I'm not going to discuss how we could possibly trade for a superstar center. It's pointless.

As you said about giving Kudos to Bergevin if he pulls off what you believe to be impossible, I'll be the first to call him out if he doesn't manage to improve the team and use the Cap space remaining appropriately. Mind you, I don't think he will wave a magic wand either and instantly turn this team into a Cup favourite by spending the Cap room, but if he doesn't improve the team at C in a concrete fashion, the melodrama surrounding the failure to re-sign Markov and/or Radulov will have been a complete waste of time and demonstrate that Bergevin may have been out of his depth with the priorities he set forth at the end of this last season.

I don't think trading for a top 2 C is impossible. All you need is one team to be really high on a prospect of yours and you never know. We aren't privy to all information, so we don't know. But when we look at our situation, our team, what top centers go for around the league, well then the likeliness of us getting one now is quite low.
Not impossible, but very unlikely we get one before the start of the year.

I'll just wait and see just how much the Habs' GM manages to disappoint me or, hopefully, he'll manage to pull something off that will make watching the team all that more exciting and have posters on these boards discuss potentialities for the team instead of an epic fail by its GM.

This team is not going to the Finals unless they are extremely lucky or changes are made, but I remain a fan no matter what because I am a fan of hockey first and foremost. I will never grow tired of watching this sport. Being from Mtl, it's only natural for me to cheer for my hometown team, but I don't believe in this management group and this is based overall on the past 6 years, not some random biased coming out of thin air.

 

[Kriss E]

Unfortunately no way to prove it.

I think Nashville ends up in the SCF with Weber in place of Subban.

And both our opinions mean jack ..... Cause its impossible to prove.

Preds were a better team all around than they had been in previous years leaving PK/SW out of it ( to argue that would be stupid imo) and had a hot tender, and got on a role after squeaking into the POs.

Subban helped the team but it wasn't a case of Subban alone carrying the team. Alot has to go right to advance in the NHL POs. And alot more went right with Preds this year than years past excluding SW/PK.

The Preds targeted a player like Subban because they felt his game would be a better fit for the style of game they wanted their team to play.
If a team identified a playmaker as a piece that would better fit their team and made a trade moving a scorer for one, then went on to the Cup Finals, making it a franchise record, there would be no debate about how this trade was absolutely key for them and that without it, there's a good chance they don't make it.

They identified a style they wanted to play.
They seaked to improve their team by trading their long time Captain for a player they judged would be a better fit.
They reach the finals, a franchise record, just 2 wins from a Cup.
....Conclusion....Bah..That trade changed nothing!

I mean I get some people are just fed up of PK talk so they just don't want to admit that he actually is a positive addition and helped the Preds more so than Weber helped us..But it's a bit silly.
No. That doesn't mean PK is the only one responsible for the success of the Preds. It doesn't even mean he was their best player during the POs. All I said was that he definitely helped them. I mean, that is specifically why they went after him and it paid off.
Would the same have happened with Weber there? No. I don't think so. They moved him so they could get a guy that better fit their system, and it lead to better results. It could not be clearer for anyone.
So if you are unwilling to even admit that, then I don't think there is much rationality in your thought process on this.

 

[Price is Wright]

Subban didn't just help the Predators more than Weber helped the Habs.

Weber never would have got the Predators past the second round. He doesn't have the stamina to carry a defence like that. And the defence originally revolved around him in Nashville. Trading him allowed Laviolette to create the current top two pair situation.

Now he doesn't even have Markov in Montreal. The offence at D revolves 75% around him and 25% around Petry. He's gonna have to have Drouin on his PP.

I honestly feel bad that Weber is going to have to carry Alzner or Streit or Schlemko. He deserves better. Much better.

 

[Bryson]

Unfortunately no way to prove it.

I think Nashville ends up in the SCF with Weber in place of Subban.

And both our opinions mean jack ..... Cause its impossible to prove.

Preds were a better team all around than they had been in previous years leaving PK/SW out of it ( to argue that would be stupid imo) and had a hot tender, and got on a role after squeaking into the POs.

Subban helped the team but it wasn't a case of Subban alone carrying the team. Alot has to go right to advance in the NHL POs. And alot more went right with Preds this year than years past excluding SW/PK.

Is there a single player in the entire NHL that carried his team to a stanley cup all on his own? Not even the best player in the world, Sydney Crosby could carry a team all on his own. Pens couldn't even make it to the finals until they added Phil Kessel and Matt Murray. Does that mean that the Pens could win the SC without Crosby? Hell no. Just like the Preds couldn't make it to the finals without PK. Subban just fits their style of play better. A style of play that the Habs should be playing.

How is it impossible to prove? Weber has never even been past the 2nd round while PK as been to the ECF twice and the SCF. How much more proof do you need?

 

[Price is Wright]

Is there a single player in the entire NHL that carried his team to a stanley cup all on his own?

Hasek got the closest in 99 with the Sabres. How he didn't win the Conn Smythe I'll never know. I guess the league was tired of Hasek winning everything in the 90s.

 

[HabsDood]

Just jump to acceptance and enjoy next season like a real fan would. But it won't happend of course.. There will be a bunch of these all year.. :p

 

[jaffy27]

Just jump to acceptance and enjoy next season like a real fan would. But it won't happend of course.. There will be a bunch of these all year.. :p

Your avatar looks like an Air Canada 767....

Believe me, some posters here are just never ever happy. Every day is an excuse to cry and complain about management and how everyone is an idiot. It's not even discussion anymore, it's become a venting site for people who hate everything.

 

[PaulD]

I understand it's case closed for you. So be it. Is there anything left for you to look forward to, other than Bergevin getting fired? Will you be watching the games? Casually? With interest? If so, in what, exactly?

I don't begrudge your impression of how things are for the team, but I always wonder what's left for those who claim all's gone to hell and there's no coming back. No hope, nothing doing...

Please enlighten me.

Reality has always been easy for me to accept. In sports its even easier.

I drive up north in my sports car rain or shine.

The drive and view is much better and far more enjoyable in the sunshine than it is in the pouring rain. But either way I still go. Its been raining in Habsville for years.

As I have for years I will watch parts of games then channel surf for my "game of the night" to a better game.

As I have also stated many times, there are other players, teams and rivalries around the NHL that can hold my interest far more then the Canadiens these days. The Habs are one huge yawn.

On the positive side....A season starting without Therrien. That bafoon was a nightmare. Thank the Bruins for canning a french coach other wise MBs twin Therrien would still be running the show.

Rooting for a Pens three-peat in 018.

Hope the Canadiens collapse and clean house at management level.

 

[PaulD]

Subban didn't just help the Predators more than Weber helped the Habs.

Weber never would have got the Predators past the second round. He doesn't have the stamina to carry a defence like that. And the defence originally revolved around him in Nashville. Trading him allowed Laviolette to create the current top two pair situation.

Now he doesn't even have Markov in Montreal. The offence at D revolves 75% around him and 25% around Petry. He's gonna have to have Drouin on his PP.

I honestly feel bad that Weber is going to have to carry Alzner or Streit or Schlemko. He deserves better. Much better.

Rinne carried the Preds in to the second round, third round and melted in the fourth round.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Just jump to acceptance and enjoy next season like a real fan would. But it won't happend of course.. There will be a bunch of these all year.. :p

define real fan please.

and I mean FAN, not cheerleader.

 

[HabsDood]

define real fan please.

and I mean FAN, not cheerleader.

Chicago Cubs

 

[ECWHSWI]

Chicago Cubs

don't care about basketball.

 

[PaulD]

The Preds targeted a player like Subban because they felt his game would be a better fit for the style of game they wanted their team to play.
If a team identified a playmaker as a piece that would better fit their team and made a trade moving a scorer for one, then went on to the Cup Finals, making it a franchise record, there would be no debate about how this trade was absolutely key for them and that without it, there's a good chance they don't make it.

They identified a style they wanted to play.
They seaked to improve their team by trading their long time Captain for a player they judged would be a better fit.
They reach the finals, a franchise record, just 2 wins from a Cup.
....Conclusion....Bah..That trade changed nothing!

I mean I get some people are just fed up of PK talk so they just don't want to admit that he actually is a positive addition and helped the Preds more so than Weber helped us..But it's a bit silly.
No. That doesn't mean PK is the only one responsible for the success of the Preds. It doesn't even mean he was their best player during the POs. All I said was that he definitely helped them. I mean, that is specifically why they went after him and it paid off.
Would the same have happened with Weber there? No. I don't think so. They moved him so they could get a guy that better fit their system, and it lead to better results. It could not be clearer for anyone.
So if you are unwilling to even admit that, then I don't think there is much rationality in your thought process on this.

Like the man said. No way to prove it it.

But I personally think that as long as Rinne played the way he did in the first 3 rounds....Preds are in the finals with PK or Weber. Or Kieth, or Seabrook , or Doughty or any number of top notch D.

The key was RinneS stellar for the Preds. When he lost that the Preds were toast.

Also the Habs lost in play offs rather easily with PK and with Weber.

 

[HabsDood]

Your avatar looks like an Air Canada 767....

Believe me, some posters here are just never ever happy. Every day is an excuse to cry and complain about management and how everyone is an idiot. It's not even discussion anymore, it's become a venting site for people who hate everything.

Close, it's a 777

And I know this place lol

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No he hasn't.....please stop with this nonsense

We have less talent. We are older. We have more expensive contracts. At best we are sitting sideways with an older team.

So yes, we're worse.

The only thing that's better is the coaching. And that's only by virtue of our GM hiring the worst coach in the league the first time around.

It's like people forget that this place was mostly positive and forgiving about Bergevin until the 15-16 season.

That's where people saw him keep his entire coaching staff*, need goalie help and trade for Ben Scrivens, need scoring help and sign Semin and Fleischmann, and watch what was once a successful season go down the drain all for a Top 10 draft pick. And then to top off not firing any of the coaching staff, trade Subban the last day he could before his no movement clause kicked in.

That's when I would say the shift happened. Some were off the ship before that, and some waited until this summer, but this place was more about defending Bergevin before that. And trying to blame everything on Therrien, including the GM's moves.

The people still supportive of Bergevin see the past six years as progress towards a Stanley Cup. I think. Some seem stuck on regular season success so maybe they think a Cup is impossible and just want to beat the Maple Leafs in the regular season to be happy. I don't know, I shouldn't assume either way.

I don't expect perfection, but I would at least like to be proven wrong on my evaluation of the team. I expect 17-18 to be more of the same. Great regular season finish, complete choke in the playoffs, shade by the GM, rinse, repeat.

The Therrien fiasco was awful and I still gave the GM the benefit of the doubt. Where he lost me was in the 2014-15 season. I felt we could win a cup that year with Price and Subban playing as they were. We did nothing to improve that club up front. Not only did we do nothing but we kept Desharnais as our first line center. We continued to screw around with Chuck on the wing... it was a total mashup of what should've been a great season and once again we finished bottom third everywhere.

In the 2015-16 season, he should've been fired. Did absolutely nothing after a torrid start and Price's injury. Ben Scrivens? For real? Kept MT on beyond all reason. Then he gets ripped off on Subban - never should've happened or been allowed. He should've lost his job that season. Since then he's continued along with his two nickels for a dime philosophy and we haven't gone anywhere.

Points for getting Drouin. But even that might turn out to be costly as we'll have to wait and see. It could've been a WIN for us anyway if he'd added to it. Instead he lets players leave and we get worse.

Again, I understand the frustration and I'm disappointed as well we got bounced in the first round but there's no need to be dishonest and extremely pessimistic IMO.

I agree. So stop being dishonest about things.

This team had everything needed to get past the Rangers and Ottawa in the second round, and even compete against the Pens.

In one breath you tell others to be honest and in the next you throw this out?

This club was close to dead last in scoring in the 2nd half of the season. We used Phillip Dannault (a guy you supported in the role) as our number one center. And now you come back and talk about how we could've beaten the Pens?

The only way that happens is if Price puts up incredible numbers. And he did just that vs the Rangers and we STILL lost. Predictably, folks such as yourself had the gall to blame him for the loss.

Wake up and smell what you're shovelling here.

 

[HabsDood]

don't care about basketball.

mmm kay

 

[Censored Toad]

Your avatar looks like an Air Canada 767....

Believe me, some posters here are just never ever happy. Every day is an excuse to cry and complain about management and how everyone is an idiot. It's not even discussion anymore, it's become a venting site for people who hate everything.

please forgive us for wanting something better then 2 first round exits. Forgive us for voicing our displeasure of the current management who despite stating they wanted to build via the draft has kept SL in the farm team.

Forgive us for not wanting to be the middle of the pack. Forgive us for not wanting to let MB have another 5 seasons before we consider his plan a "failure"

" Just give it another season"
"Trades are hard"
"Its on me"
"Micheal is the kind of guy you want in a foxhole with"
"We are a playoff team with Carey price"
"I'm going to shore up our offense with 3rd and 4th line acquisitions"

playstation memes, hiding behind plants, suits.

How bad does it have to get around here before you people finally turn on Marc? What is coup de grâce that will finally turn you into a Marc Hater?

In his last 5 seasons, we have ridden Carey Price ( CP31 was always MT's plan) to one eastern conference final. Two first round exits and one second round exit. Every Exit clearly being out played and outscored. Lastly we have the season without Carey and was had the largest collapse in Habs history.

And you people are OK with this?
DO you really think we are going to be able to contend against the Pens, Caps with this lineup? We will barely beat out a first round opponent with our line up.

Yet this is fine for you. Get to the playoffs, its all good. Mediocore, middle of the pack, 50/50, First round exit specialists.

This is not fine for me. We aren't the Arizona Coyotes, Hurricanes.
This is the Habs. I expect the team to always be improving. Based on that track record of the last 5 seasons under Marc , you cannot say we are improving. I Don't know what we are doing, but getting incrementally better to become a contender is NOT what is happening on this team.

The Montreal Carey Prices, The Montreal Pretenders. The Montreal Capspacers
But ya, Marc's a great GM, Give him anotehr couple of seasons. lets wait to see what he does with that capspace, I heard JT is coming to montreal

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Your avatar looks like an Air Canada 767....

Believe me, some posters here are just never ever happy. Every day is an excuse to cry and complain about management and how everyone is an idiot. It's not even discussion anymore, it's become a venting site for people who hate everything.

Stop whining about posters.

If you have an argument to make, make it. You keep coming back with one liners about how people complain for no reason and you offer nothing to back it up.

There are very good reasons for criticizing this GM. Address the arguments and participate in the debate but stop coming in and pretending like there's nothing to see here.

 

[Doc McKenna]

don't care about basketball.

Wrong sport. But i dont see what fans of the Bears junior team has to do with NHL fans?

 

[hockeyguru19]

Subban didn't just help the Predators more than Weber helped the Habs.

Weber never would have got the Predators past the second round. He doesn't have the stamina to carry a defence like that. And the defence originally revolved around him in Nashville. Trading him allowed Laviolette to create the current top two pair situation.

Now he doesn't even have Markov in Montreal. The offence at D revolves 75% around him and 25% around Petry. He's gonna have to have Drouin on his PP.

I honestly feel bad that Weber is going to have to carry Alzner or Streit or Schlemko. He deserves better. Much better.

Wake up ...P.K. was not even one of the 5 biggest reasons Nashville a #8 seed got to the finals....Rinne,Johansen,Arvidson,Ellis,Ekholm.Josi....all ahead of Subban...PERIOD...CASE CLOSED.

 

[hockeyguru19]

you're right. nashville making it to the stanley cup finals the very same year they traded for subban was just a "coincidence"

I guess Kessel was the reason the Penguins won the cup in the very first year they traded for him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Let's leave the Nashville/Subban discussions for the out of town thread. Fine to be on one side or the other in this debate and to express it here, but let's stay on topic.

 

[CauZuki]

please forgive us for wanting something better then 2 first round exits. Forgive us for voicing our displeasure of the current management who despite stating they wanted to build via the draft has kept SL in the farm team.

Forgive us for not wanting to be the middle of the pack. Forgive us for not wanting to let MB have another 5 seasons before we consider his plan a "failure"

" Just give it another season"
"Trades are hard"
"Its on me"
"Micheal is the kind of guy you want in a foxhole with"
"We are a playoff team with Carey price"
"I'm going to shore up our offense with 3rd and 4th line acquisitions"

playstation memes, hiding behind plants, suits.

How bad does it have to get around here before you people finally turn on Marc? What is coup de grâce that will finally turn you into a Marc Hater?

In his last 5 seasons, we have ridden Carey Price ( CP31 was always MT's plan) to one eastern conference final. Two first round exits and one second round exit. Every Exit clearly being out played and outscored. Lastly we have the season without Carey and was had the largest collapse in Habs history.

And you people are OK with this?
DO you really think we are going to be able to contend against the Pens, Caps with this lineup? We will barely beat out a first round opponent with our line up.

Yet this is fine for you. Get to the playoffs, its all good. Mediocore, middle of the pack, 50/50, First round exit specialists.

This is not fine for me. We aren't the Arizona Coyotes, Hurricanes.
This is the Habs. I expect the team to always be improving. Based on that track record of the last 5 seasons under Marc , you cannot say we are improving. I Don't know what we are doing, but getting incrementally better to become a contender is NOT what is happening on this team.

The Montreal Carey Prices, The Montreal Pretenders. The Montreal Capspacers
But ya, Marc's a great GM, Give him anotehr couple of seasons. lets wait to see what he does with that capspace, I heard JT is coming to montreal

The worst part is that many of the defenders will say things like "our team still has young players" and "you don't know who our GM will acquire to make us a contender". However nobody will acknowledge that many of the bottom teams are now trending up.

I'm thinking of (just in the EAST) as teams that are trending up:

-Toronto
-Philadelphia
-Buffalo
-Carolina

We have the known top regular season teams in :

-Pittsburgh
-Washington

There are also the known playoff challenging (or playoff caliber) teams:

-Tampa
-Columbus
-NYR
-Boston
-Florida

This is what concerns me , not just the fact that the moves done by our GM haven't been overwhelmingly positive but that other teams are catching up. People are so confident that there is no window of oppurtunity. If they expect the team to compete against the likes of Matthews/Marner/Eichel/Patrick and company with a Weber at age 35-36 and Price at age 33-34 , then I have some bad news...