TSN: Maple Leafs have offers for D Franson (prefer to re-sign him)

[Semantics]

Size, young, good offensive instincts, mobility, right shot. Give him the right defensive partner and he's set. Unless the Leafs are getting a lot in return, it would be a mistake to trade Franson at this point.

Young? Dude is going to be 27 in a month, in a league where the average age for a defenseman is 27.2. At what point in your mind does he transition from "young" to middle aged?

Edit: oh, I didn't notice your user name, kind of explains the sticking up for a terrible player.

 

[mikebel111*]

You do realize Toronto's top line faces probably the highest QoC in the NHL right? Fix line two so it can play some real quality and I bet line ones goal differential improves greatly.

First line gets hemmed in a lot of the time. It isn't good on D and sorry but Bozak isn't an elite player though you act like he is Teows

Also get rid of Cody "I want to be a millionaire because I score points, si freaking bad" Franson

 

[mikebel111*]

Young? Dude is going to be 27 in a month, in a league where the average age for a defenseman is 27.2. At what point in your mind does he transition from "young" to middle aged?

Edit: oh, I didn't notice your user name, kind of explains the sticking up for a terrible player.

Leafs nation is an enigma to me. They over rate the bad players but under rate the good ones

 

[mikebel111*]

Can we stop with this ridiculous comment.

Can't handle the truth?

 

[Semantics]

You do realize Toronto's top line faces probably the highest QoC in the NHL right? Fix line two so it can play some real quality and I bet line ones goal differential improves greatly.

They are up there but there are a number of lines that face higher QoC no matter which metric you use.

And one notable fact about the QoC numbers of the Bozak's line is that they rank higher in opposing forward QoC than in opposing defensemen. This is because they're bad defensively, spend so much time in their own end, and ice the puck so much that they end up playing against the other team's top scoring line constantly.

So opposing teams don't actually feel the need match up defensive players against Bozak's line all that much because they just don't have to - they just send out their best offensive players knowing they'll play the whole shift in the Leafs end. The TOI% metrics for QoC all give a lot more weight to the other team's offensive lines since they tend to have the highest TOI.

 

[HonestHockey*]

They are up there but there are a number of lines that face higher QoC no matter which metric you use.

And one notable fact about the QoC numbers of the Bozak's line is that they rank higher in opposing forward QoC than in opposing defensemen. This is because they're bad defensively, spend so much time in their own end, and ice the puck so much that they end up playing against the other team's top scoring line constantly.

So opposing teams don't actually feel the need match up defensive players against Bozak's line all that much because they just don't have to - they just send out their best offensive players knowing they'll play the whole shift in the Leafs end. The TOI% metrics for QoC all give a lot more weight to the other team's offensive lines since they tend to have the highest TOI.

Actually not a fact. There are few lines that match up QoC wise. Chicago's 1? Yep. After that not many.

And I'll call you out on the forward defense thing as well. Huge differential between just Kessels 26.6% forward QoC and 34.7% defense.

Not sure how a player finishes 6 in scoring yet plays all game in his own end.

Line one is over worked playing all the competitions best every game. Fix two.

 

[mikebel111*]

Actually not a fact. There are few lines that match up QoC wise. Chicago's 1? Yep. After that not many.

And I'll call you out on the forward defense thing as well. Huge differential between just Kessels 26.6% forward QoC and 34.7% defense.

Not sure how a player finishes 6 in scoring yet plays all game in his own end.

Line one is over worked playing all the competitions best every game. Fix two.

Sure blame 2.
Fix line 1. Maybe for better defensive players
Not going anywhere with Bozak as no 1 C
Fix one!

 

[Cor]

Leafs nation is an enigma to me. They over rate the bad players but under rate the good ones

There were people who wanted to trade Phaneuf and make Franson our 1D

 

[-DeMo-]

Actually not a fact. There are few lines that match up QoC wise. Chicago's 1? Yep. After that not many.

And I'll call you out on the forward defense thing as well. Huge differential between just Kessels 26.6% forward QoC and 34.7% defense.

Not sure how a player finishes 6 in scoring yet plays all game in his own end.

Line one is over worked playing all the competitions best every game. Fix two.

if our top line can't go up against the other teams best and beat them consistently then were never going anywhere, if your top line loses the battle you're going to lose 90% of the games you play. the difference between a bottom 10 team and a Cup contender is not a better 2nd line.

 

[mikebel111*]

There were people who wanted to trade Phaneuf and make Franson our 1D

They should be ignored
I am serious when I say we have the dumbest fans in the world

 

[rdawg1234]

Size, young, good offensive instincts, mobility, right shot. Give him the right defensive partner and he's set. Unless the Leafs are getting a lot in return, it would be a mistake to trade Franson at this point.

mobility? what?

Franson is garbage, and was at best a 3rd pairing PP guy who capitalized on weaker competition during the shortened season(most players were out of shape at first).

easily replaceable guy and would be silly to keep, too expensive.

 

[Leafidelity]

Leaning on Franson to be a top 4 defenseman is a big reason as to why the season went the way it did. If they make the same mistake again don't expect much improvement from the secondary group.

 

[Lebanese Leaf]

I'll save any new readers 11 pages of pointless debate:

Franson ****ing sucks, and he should be traded if there are offers.

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

He's a big blue-line warrior that had a bad season. Wow, if I could count the number of good defencemen that had that. He'll bounce back. I have to believe that the minus-20 rating was part of the 8-game debacle that cost the Leafs their playoff birth. Carlyle needs to find a better 'defensive structure'. That doesn't just mean the defensemen have to get better. It's all five guys.

 

[thewave]

He's a big blue-line warrior that had a bad season. Wow, if I could count the number of good defencemen that had that. He'll bounce back. I have to believe that the minus-20 rating was part of the 8-game debacle that cost the Leafs their playoff birth. Carlyle needs to find a better 'defensive structure'. That doesn't just mean the defensemen have to get better. It's all five guys.

Our system has never been kind to the Luke Schenns of the league. We need pursuit defense because positionally we suck and end up putting ourselves in situations where pursuit is needed compensate.

I was watching Iron Mike the other night. A part of me wishes we could give him the GM coaching jobs.

He went into Chicago and traded all but 2 players. That's balls.

 

[masarume]

I'll save any new readers 11 pages of pointless debate:

Franson ****ing sucks, and he should be traded if there are offers.

That was easy.

 

[therealkoho]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I only really understood one point you made.
The way you write is somewhat hard to follow.

"Why does Nonis need Dreger versus going to the GMs himself"

I guess my counter would be - having Dreger come out and say it instantly gets the message across all of social media. Him doing it himself would involve him talking to every single GM. That seems way more desperate.

Desperate???? This is professional hockey we're talking about, a business that makes billions of dollars per year, run by people who make millions of dollars per year. Desperate would be be using the media as a conduit for negotiation

"Hey Brian, you're willing to give a 3rd for Franson? Well, I'd like more? No. Okay, I'll call around and let you know when a better offer comes along so you try to beat it if you still want him."

It's the other GM's job, but why leave things up to chance if the other GMs are going to do their job? One tweet - gets the message across to everyone. Done. No phones calls unless the interest from the other buyers are legitimate.

Again, no professional closes any deal through a 3rd party amateur where the message delivered can be skewed by personal choice/belief or not fully understood by the party re-broadcasting. The idea of the so called "face-to-face" has proven out over time from the very first time a cave-man traded food for furs with another cave-man. Anyone who uses a go-between when trying to make a deal ultimately ends up on the short end of the stick


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

As to what you may have misunderstood in the missive you were originally answering to, I completely skewed and over-complicated the second part of the question, why? because that's how easily one can be misunderstood. Basically there were three parts to that second question

The first part which was the entire point of it, was addressing the the myth of Dreglund and his pompous notion that he propagates as being an "insider!" This notion has become self-fulfilling mainly because the internet gossipers have made it so.

The idea that he is somehow the mouthpiece of a man who runs the the NHL's most valuable franchise because of some tenuous familial connection is ludicrous.

How many of your second cousins once removed can you actually name, how many do you actually know, and lastly how many have you nurtured a close relationship with. Of those you have a close relationship with, how many live within a close enough vicinity to you that you were able to build this close relationship?

Lastly do you have any close relationships with second cousins once removed that grew up over 1500kms away from you?

That is the reality we're speaking about here. One more thing when David Nonis was the assistant and then finally GM of the Vancouver Canucks, where was this so called insider relationship then?

 

[Fogelhund]

He's a big blue-line warrior that had a bad season. Wow, if I could count the number of good defencemen that had that. He'll bounce back. I have to believe that the minus-20 rating was part of the 8-game debacle that cost the Leafs their playoff birth. Carlyle needs to find a better 'defensive structure'. That doesn't just mean the defensemen have to get better. It's all five guys.

Carlyle does need to find a better 'defensive structure', there is no question there. I don't really believe he had a particularly bad season at all, rather what you see, is what you get. His play has improved over time, and some people have made a scape goat out of him. But, he is basically a 3rd line D, who can get his shot off on the PP. To put it in perspective, Gardiner, Phaneuf and Rielly outscored him 5 on 5, and Ranger had one few point last year. As Rielly grows, and Gardiner too, that PP time can easily be replaced, obviously 5 on 5, he isn't as good offensively as the others, and of course can be a liability defensively. Sure his game grew, he registered a lot of (soft) hits, but I don't really believe he is worth what his contract demands will be. He'll ask for around $ 4 million, based upon his points, when really at $2-2.5 he is probably worth keeping. I also can't get out of my head how many times he coughed up the puck on the PP, leading to a breakaway opportunity for the other team.

He isn't a bad D, but he needs to be played, and paid like the 3rd line PP specialist he is. Given we need to improve defensively, it makes some sense to move him out and improve in that spot.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Carlyle does need to find a better 'defensive structure', there is no question there. I don't really believe he had a particularly bad season at all, rather what you see, is what you get. His play has improved over time, and some people have made a scape goat out of him. But, he is basically a 3rd line D, who can get his shot off on the PP. To put it in perspective, Gardiner, Phaneuf and Rielly outscored him 5 on 5, and Ranger had one few point last year. As Rielly grows, and Gardiner too, that PP time can easily be replaced, obviously 5 on 5, he isn't as good offensively as the others, and of course can be a liability defensively. Sure his game grew, he registered a lot of (soft) hits, but I don't really believe he is worth what his contract demands will be. He'll ask for around $ 4 million, based upon his points, when really at $2-2.5 he is probably worth keeping. I also can't get out of my head how many times he coughed up the puck on the PP, leading to a breakaway opportunity for the other team.

He isn't a bad D, but he needs to be played, and paid like the 3rd line PP specialist he is. Given we need to improve defensively, it makes some sense to move him out and improve in that spot.

Exactly. I hope they keep him and overpay

 

[masarume]

Desperate???? This is professional hockey we're talking about, a business that makes billions of dollars per year, run by people who make millions of dollars per year. Desperate would be be using the media as a conduit for negotiation

Again, no professional closes any deal through a 3rd party amateur where the message delivered can be skewed by personal choice/belief or not fully understood by the party re-broadcasting. The idea of the so called "face-to-face" has proven out over time from the very first time a cave-man traded food for furs with another cave-man. Anyone who uses a go-between when trying to make a deal ultimately ends up on the short end of the stick

If you think floating a message out into social media is more desperate than picking up the phone and calling every other GM out there, then this problem is easily solved. You and I have simply have a different opinion on social cues. We can just agree to disagree. Especially since we're having the discussion of asking more for Franson's return - these are second round phone calls. 58 phones calls versus one tweet. And you're choosing the tweet as desperate.

Now you're just bending the truth. Despite all the BS Dreger comes up with, he still has more connections to the NHL than you or I. Attention seeking and non-credible, sure. But I wouldn't call him an amateur.
Also, when has Dreger CLOSED A DEAL?! He made one tweet. I would hardly constitute that as closing a deal. But hey, anything to make your point across right?

As for the relationship of Dreger and Nonis - I doubt they have Sunday dinners together. I'm not very close with my second cousins at all. But I also don't work in a specialized billion dollar industry (as you like to point out for no reason) where my job could be aided by another family member's position as a third party. If we both benefit, why not use this connection? Better him than some stranger.

There's so much superfluous verbal junk in your posts that does nothing to enhance your points. I'm not sure what $$$ has to do with desperation. I'm also not sure why cavemen are being brought up in a hockey discussion. It almost seems like you to hear yourself talk.

 

[Joey Hoser]

If you think floating a message out into social media is more desperate than picking up the phone and calling every other GM out there, then this problem is easily solved. You and I have simply have a different opinion on social cues. We can just agree to disagree. Especially since we're having the discussion of asking more for Franson's return - these are second round phone calls. 58 phones calls versus one tweet. And you're choosing the tweet as desperate.

Now you're just bending the truth. Despite all the BS Dreger comes up with, he still has more connections to the NHL than you or I. Attention seeking and non-credible, sure. But I wouldn't call him an amateur.
Also, when has Dreger CLOSED A DEAL?! He made one tweet. I would hardly constitute that as closing a deal. But hey, anything to make your point across right?

As for the relationship of Dreger and Nonis - I doubt they have Sunday dinners together. I'm not very close with my second cousins at all. But I also don't work in a specialized billion dollar industry (as you like to point out for no reason) where my job could be aided by another family member's position as a third party. If we both benefit, why not use this connection? Better him than some stranger.

There's so much superfluous verbal junk in your posts that does nothing to enhance your points. I'm not sure what $$$ has to do with desperation. I'm also not sure why cavemen are being brought up in a hockey discussion. It almost seems like you to hear yourself talk.

Point is these are professional businessmen making millions of dollars, operating a billion dollar industry. They don't negotiate via ****ing twitter.

The stupidity and unprofessionalism NHL executives are accused of around always makes me laugh.

 

[masarume]

Exactly. I hope they keep him and overpay

If Franson was happy with a 5th-7th defensmen role, earn a 1-1.5 million, I'd have no problem keeping him.

Yes Carylyle's system doesn't work. The fans see it. The players see it. Just no him and his assistants for some reason.

But in reality, we gave Franson top 4 minutes. He's delivered top 4 production in terms of hits and points. Yes he was horrible defensively but that won't mean much when he's asking for a new contract. He's going to want top 4 dollars. So we're probably looking at something in the 4 million dollar range.

I hope we dump him after an overachieving season. I doubt his new coach will have enough faith in him after letting him play top 4 minutes after the first 10-15 games.

 

[Nithoniniel]

if our top line can't go up against the other teams best and beat them consistently then were never going anywhere, if your top line loses the battle you're going to lose 90% of the games you play. the difference between a bottom 10 team and a Cup contender is not a better 2nd line.

Well if you look at what teams have had success through the years you find a common theme in that they all have depth through at least three lines. Meanwhile, teams with a great first line and mediocre depth tend to not go very far.

 

[bobermay]

Carlyle does need to find a better 'defensive structure', there is no question there. I don't really believe he had a particularly bad season at all, rather what you see, is what you get. His play has improved over time, and some people have made a scape goat out of him. But, he is basically a 3rd line D, who can get his shot off on the PP. To put it in perspective, Gardiner, Phaneuf and Rielly outscored him 5 on 5, and Ranger had one few point last year. As Rielly grows, and Gardiner too, that PP time can easily be replaced, obviously 5 on 5, he isn't as good offensively as the others, and of course can be a liability defensively. Sure his game grew, he registered a lot of (soft) hits, but I don't really believe he is worth what his contract demands will be. He'll ask for around $ 4 million, based upon his points, when really at $2-2.5 he is probably worth keeping. I also can't get out of my head how many times he coughed up the puck on the PP, leading to a breakaway opportunity for the other team.

He isn't a bad D, but he needs to be played, and paid like the 3rd line PP specialist he is. Given we need to improve defensively, it makes some sense to move him out and improve in that spot.

I agree with everything in the post except for the last statement.

Franson brings a couple of dynamics to our defense that we don't get much of from our other players...

1) He's a Right Handed Shot (Yes, this DOES make a difference!)
2) He has size (Tallest player on our backend)
3) Hitting Machine (2nd in the league in hits)
4) Very effective shot (Has ability to get it on net like none of our other defensmen)

These qualities right here are (and should be) in high demand. If we get rid of Franson, these are some of the qualities were are looking for in our back end (in addition to more defensive minded player).

I think on Franson's good days, he's top pairing worthy. Problem with him is that those days are far and few between. But ideally... he'd make a solid addition to our 3rd pairing.

If anything, it is Gardiner and Reilly that are redundant. I personally don't want either of them gone, but it kind of makes the most sense to move one if we want to bring a strong defensive piece to our back end. Both of them are essentially the same kind of players...

 

[masarume]

Point is these are professional businessmen making millions of dollars, operating a billion dollar industry. They don't negotiate via ****ing twitter.

The stupidity and unprofessionalism NHL executives are accused of around always makes me laugh.

It's a tweet people.
It's not like they negotiated this deal through twitter.
Since when is tweeting unprofessional?