Management Thread | Is a Reckoning coming?

[y2kcanucks]

Those who make a point regarding Jim Benning's good drafting decisions with EP and Hughes overlook OJ and Virtanen. And rounds 2 and beyond.

The Canucks cap problems and overall lack of depth do not point to a team that is drafting and developing players consistently into a system that produces results.

Yes they overlook those two bad picks, but they also overlook the evidence that suggests Benning didn't pick EP.

 

[m9]

On 2014 :

- We know from Benning himself that he mostly sat back and evaluated as the existing draft staff put together their list, only interjecting occasionally. I can't find the link but I'm sure someone can.

- We know Benning (maybe with ownership influence) overruled the scouts to take Virtanen.

- sources posted earlier in this thread indicate that Benning was set on Bleackley at #24, but then 'leaned on the scouts' when Bleakley was gone. So that's a Gillis/Crawford pick. And the same sources seem to indicate something similar happened at #36 when Benning wanted Hawryluk.

- Benning didn't even know what league Tryamkin was playing in at the time he was drafted. And it's been confirmed that that was a Sergei Chibisev pick that Chibisev had been working on all year. Benning's 'sitting back and evaluating the scouts' meant that that pick was allowed to happen when Gillis might not have ... but it's definitely a Crawford staff pick nevertheless.

- given how quickly Benning fired Forsling out of a cannon, I'd suspect he was also a scouting staff pick. Benning constantly prematurely dumps players tied to other people and doubles/triples down on guys he backed so it would be *very * out of character for him to have pushed for Forsling and then quickly traded him.

So basically it is a hybrid draft, but most of the good that happened in that draft seems to be directly from Crawford and from the existing work the scouts were doing under Gillis. Tryamkin was a weird one because it wasn't really Benning but wouldn't have happened under Gillis.

This makes sense to me. I've never thought Benning had autonomy over entire drafts, just thought he heavily influenced the top of 2014. Add how quickly they moved on from McCann to the pile which backs up that he didn't get his guy in Bleakley.

There's also no doubt that he was a big fan of Boeser and Juolevi the next two years.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Benning ran the amateur scouting arm of the organization as part of his GM duties in Boston. Even PoM has eventually admitted that this was the case.

Basically what he was doing in Boston is pretty much identical to what he's done here. None of the other management figures there (Chiarelli, Neely, Sweeney) had any amateur scouting background.

I conceded that he was 'heavily involved' ..not that he ran the scouting arm.

He was the AGM..Chiarelli's right hand man, thats a job in itself...Benning was involved in all facets of the Bruins.There's just not enough minutes in the day to do both jobs....Laying their poor drafting in that period completely at Bennings feet is not really fair..imo

 

[MS]

This makes sense to me. I've never thought Benning had autonomy over entire drafts, just thought he heavily influenced the top of 2014. Add how quickly they moved on from McCann to the pile which backs up that he didn't get his guy in Bleakley.

There's also no doubt that he was a big fan of Boeser and Juolevi the next two years.

The Boeser and Hughes picks it sounds like the scouts and management were in line on.

But yeah, you can pretty much tell whether Benning (and Weisbrod) wanted a guy or whether other people had input by how quickly Benning fires that player out of a cannon when he gets a chance.

 

[Bubbles]

On 2014 :

- We know from Benning himself that he mostly sat back and evaluated as the existing draft staff put together their list, only interjecting occasionally. I can't find the link but I'm sure someone can.

- We know Benning (maybe with ownership influence) overruled the scouts to take Virtanen.

- sources posted earlier in this thread indicate that Benning was set on Bleackley at #24, but then 'leaned on the scouts' when Bleakley was gone. So that's a Gillis/Crawford pick. And the same sources seem to indicate something similar happened at #36 when Benning wanted Hawryluk.

- Benning didn't even know what league Tryamkin was playing in at the time he was drafted. And it's been confirmed that that was a Sergei Chibisev pick that Chibisev had been working on all year. Benning's 'sitting back and evaluating the scouts' meant that that pick was allowed to happen when Gillis might not have ... but it's definitely a Crawford staff pick nevertheless.

- given how quickly Benning fired Forsling out of a cannon, I'd suspect he was also a scouting staff pick. Benning constantly prematurely dumps players tied to other people and doubles/triples down on guys he backed so it would be *very * out of character for him to have pushed for Forsling and then quickly traded him.

So basically it is a hybrid draft, but most of the good that happened in that draft seems to be directly from Crawford and from the existing work the scouts were doing under Gillis. Tryamkin was a weird one because it wasn't really Benning but wouldn't have happened under Gillis.

Thanks, great detailed post.

My point is that 2014 should not be credited to Benning at all. And to your point, he jettisoned the two picks that he had no influence on McCann and Forsling, before they even got a chance to develop.

 

[MS]

I conceded that he was 'heavily involved' ..not that he ran the scouting arm.

He was the AGM..Chiarelli's right hand man, thats a job in itself...Benning was involved in all facets of the Bruins.There's just not enough minutes in the day to do both jobs....Laying their poor drafting in that period completely at Bennings feet is not really fair..imo

You've literally been provided with sources showing he ran the scouting arm of the organization, in those words.

And ... what? He has time to run the scouting in Vancouver while doing the much bigger job as GM but doesn't have time to while as an AGM in Boston? Really?

But I'm honestly not having this argument again. It's been utterly demolished as badly as anything could possibly be demolished.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

“I told my wife many years ago that I’d never go into politics because that would be too intense. I think being president of the Canucks might be worse. There’s more scrutiny in being president, manager, coach of the Vancouver Canucks than there is in any political forum.
Everything you do is scrutinized left, right and centre, right? That’s one of the things I definitely won’t miss.” Trevor Linden.

 

[MS]

Thanks, great detailed post.

My point is that 2014 should not be credited to Benning at all. And to your point, he jettisoned the two picks that he had no influence on McCann and Forsling, before they even got a chance to develop.

Benning's influence on 2014 was basically :

1) Taking Virtanen instead of Larkin. (negative)

2) Allowing Crawford and his staff to take Tryamkin which Benning probably wouldn't have. (positive)

If Gillis is running that draft, it probably looks the same aside from adding Larkin and removing Tryamkin.

If Crawford is running that draft autonomously, it probably looks the same aside from Larkin over Virtanen.

 

[M2Beezy]

On 2014 :

- We know from Benning himself that he mostly sat back and evaluated as the existing draft staff put together their list, only interjecting occasionally. I can't find the link but I'm sure someone can.

- We know Benning (maybe with ownership influence) overruled the scouts to take Virtanen.

- sources posted earlier in this thread indicate that Benning was set on Bleackley at #24, but then 'leaned on the scouts' when Bleakley was gone. So that's a Gillis/Crawford pick. And the same sources seem to indicate something similar happened at #36 when Benning wanted Hawryluk.

- Benning didn't even know what league Tryamkin was playing in at the time he was drafted. And it's been confirmed that that was a Sergei Chibisev pick that Chibisev had been working on all year. Benning's 'sitting back and evaluating the scouts' meant that that pick was allowed to happen when Gillis might not have ... but it's definitely a Crawford staff pick nevertheless.

- given how quickly Benning fired Forsling out of a cannon, I'd suspect he was also a scouting staff pick. Benning constantly prematurely dumps players tied to other people and doubles/triples down on guys he backed so it would be *very * out of character for him to have pushed for Forsling and then quickly traded him.

So basically it is a hybrid draft, but most of the good that happened in that draft seems to be directly from Crawford and from the existing work the scouts were doing under Gillis. Tryamkin was a weird one because it wasn't really Benning but wouldn't have happened under Gillis.

Didnt he also try in trade Horvat in 2016 to Montreal for Subban, but only if PLD was still available at 5. If true, Columbus saved Benning from himself

 

[MS]

Didnt he also try in trade Horvat in 2016 to Montreal for Subban, but only if PLD was still available at 5. If true, Columbus saved Benning from himself

Montreal saved Benning from himself.

Apparently that trade was going through if PL Dubois - who Montreal was desperate to get - was there but inexplicably when Dubois was gone Bergevin went with the Weber option instead.

The Boeser pick also would have been gone for Lucic in 2015 if Benning had his way.

And it sounds like our 2021 #1 would have been gone for OEL.

 

[logan5]

There are so many people involved in the decision making for the team, how can you possibly assign blame or credit to one particular person? Just don’t buy the “it’s been confirmed” line. Could be true, but there is so much bs floating around, you really would be foolish to believe what some people are saying.

Probly a better way and more accurate way of phrasing it would be to say “the organization” or “the team”. It’s just way to complicated, or just downright impossible to calculate which one individual is responsible for what.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Trying to catch up on the last several pages and all I have to say is that we simply haven't drafted enough quality players, and haven't drafted enough good D prospects for a team that has has finished in the bottom-10 this many times over 7 years/drafts to call the GM a good drafter.

We have a handful of good players, and not enough of them are at premium positions (centre/defence).

well they certainly haven't drafted enough quality players to justify giving away mccann, madden, forsling, or the crapload of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks they've given away over the years, or making gaudette go away, or not handling business with hamhuis and vrbata, or holding walking ryan miller to UFA, or drafting for positional need (OJ) over the overwhelmingly consensus BPA (tkachuk).

i think about pat quinn thirty-odd years ago. he had a wave of legit NHL players all coming in at the same time — i'm not talking about bure and nedved, i'm talking about robert kron, garry valk, dixon ward, and an extra first round pick in the loaded 1990 draft (gino, jiri slegr, though the extra first was burned on, ugh, shawn antoski) — so in the span of six months in 1990 he age gapped a 2nd for lumme and a 4th for diduck. for reference, derrick pouliot alone cost us a 3rd and a 4th.

and at the same time, the team pat got his best two dmen of the 90s from, montreal, was able to just collect assets for pieces they didn't need because they had drafted incredibly well (at the time they had eric desjardins, mathieu schneider, sylvain lefebvre, petr svoboda, lyle odelein, and jj daigneault all 25 and under, with patrice brisebois and sean hill coming up and in the same window stupidly gave away chris chelios in his prime).

my point is, this is the bar for "drafted well." unmistakably, the benning years have resulted in some big hits. some of those big hits, for example demko, may not have had anything to do with him, but still there have been big big hits. but there haven't been enough, and certainly not enough of a push from below, to justify his ridiculous asset management and the large gambles he made, such as OJ over tkachuk, or madden + pick for toffoli, even one of them (the jt miller gamble) did pay off.

back to montreal, they drafted and developed so well they had all these extra pieces, and it allowed them to do things like add a young brent gilchrist to upgrade shayne corson to vincent damphousse, and add tom chorske to stephane richer to get kirk muller, which are the two key moves that bumped them from a team that got bounced in the adams finals three straight years to winning the '93 cup.

the idea that the drafting we've seen has been nearly enough is laughable.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

There are so many people involved in the decision making for the team, how can you possibly assign blame or credit to one particular person? Just don’t buy the “it’s been confirmed” line. Could be true, but there is so much bs floating around, you really would be foolish to believe what some people are saying.

Probly a better way and more accurate way of phrasing it would be to say “the organization” or “the team”. It’s just way to complicated, or just downright impossible to calculate which one individual is responsible for what.

a lot less cooks in the kitchen currently there used to be though right?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

This is a team whose stock has eroded tremendously with the fanbase, one which more than likely can't push merchandise

this is totally anecdotal, but just from watching the kids at my kid's daycare two years ago vs the kids at his school now, there is maybe 20% of the canucks apparel on young kids these days.

this might be a reboot of my childhood in the late 80s, when absolutely none of us were canucks fans. i remember in grades one and two, playing hockey during recess and it would be like, i'm lemieux, i'm yzerman, i'm patrick roy, and then we'd say, no you suck you're not lemieux you're steve bozek. for whatever reason, it was always steve bozek.

some of us BECAME canucks fans after the courtnall/ronning/momesso trade, and then almost all of us were canucks fans after bure.

i feel like what the aqualini family is starting to learn is that the franchise printing money isn't automatic, and once the casuals start to forget about their memories of the sedins, the presses stop pretty abruptly.

 

[M2Beezy]

 

[logan5]

@Frankie Blueberries - your post got deleted but I will answer anyways...

I think my devotion to Benning has been greatly exaggerated. I like the young talent the team has, and I think we have a good future, but I will not be sad if Benning is fired.

If/when a new GM comes in (likely this year) the bad contracts and dead cap space take care of themselves fairly quickly.

 

[arttk]

don’t need to foresee anything if you live day to day.

 

[M2Beezy]

don’t need to foresee anything if you live day to day.

Just like Petterssons injury!

 

[Kryten]

Still hilarious that Aquilini didnt spend the last year getting new blue/green seats put in the arena

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

@Frankie Blueberries - your post got deleted but I will answer anyways...

I think my devotion to Benning has been greatly exaggerated. I like the young talent the team has, and I think we have a good future, but I will not be sad if Benning is fired.

If/when a new GM comes in (likely this year) the bad contracts and dead cap space take care of themselves fairly quickly.

You've been making bad arguments and ignoring the points that factually disprove your claims and then re-litigating the same points...so it's not even really about Benning at this point. The cap space issue still screwed us in the past and we lost a window to contend for 2 out of the last 3 years because of cap mismanagement. Remember the playoff run last year? We should have had similar years this year and in 2019 if we had a competent GM. Myers will still be taking a big chunk away for the next few years as well.

 

[RussianRacket]

I'm excited for new management.

As long as its not Gillis.

 

[logan5]

You've been making bad arguments and ignoring the points that factually disprove your claims and then re-litigating the same points...so it's not even really about Benning at this point. The cap space issue still screwed us in the past and we lost a window to contend for 2 out of the last 3 years because of cap mismanagement. Remember the playoff run last year? We should have had similar years this year and in 2019 if we had a competent GM. Myers will still be taking a big chunk away for the next few years as well.

I Probly shouldn’t go here, but what bad arguments are you talking about. I research my posts from various web sites if it is not an opinion based arguememt.

 

[RandV]

Benning's influence on 2014 was basically :

1) Taking Virtanen instead of Larkin. (negative)

2) Allowing Crawford and his staff to take Tryamkin which Benning probably wouldn't have. (positive)

If Gillis is running that draft, it probably looks the same aside from adding Larkin and removing Tryamkin.

If Crawford is running that draft autonomously, it probably looks the same aside from Larkin over Virtanen.

You missed #3: Let Ron Delorme pick McKenzie Stewart.

That one Benning was in full agreement with as he quickly gave him a pro contract and tried to force him on the AHL team when he wasn't even an ECHL level player.

 

[I am toxic]

You've been making bad arguments and ignoring the points that factually disprove your claims and then re-litigating the same points...so it's not even really about Benning at this point. The cap space issue still screwed us in the past and we lost a window to contend for 2 out of the last 3 years because of cap mismanagement. Remember the playoff run last year? We should have had similar years this year and in 2019 if we had a competent GM. Myers will still be taking a big chunk away for the next few years as well.

We've been hearing about crap contracts coming off the books for about a half decade now, to free up cap space.

And yet here we are.

Cap space. It matters.

 

[geebaan]

The Oilers are Chia Pets team cause he drafted McDavid, and any success they have should be credited to him.

see how f***ing stupid that sounds?