Management Thread | Is a Reckoning coming?

[MS]

Like I’ve said a few times the drafting thing is totally irrelevant garbage and should be ignored on one hand but on the other it’s such easily disproven tripe so why wouldn’t you?

The problem is that this nonsense is so widely held and that it has enabled this entire 7-year disaster. If more people were more aggressive about killing it with fire, maybe this would have been over sooner.

Plus you can already see like that angry ex-mod trying to frame it as ‘Benning’s Team’ if it eventually has success, and if that’s the case ... they weren’t wrong for supporting this crap GM, were they?

I’m so over it too. Looking forward to discussions about what the new GM needs to do to fix Benning’s mess.

 

[Fatass]

All Weisbrod ever says is "I saw this guy at a two week tournament, he's good"...meanwhile the scouts that look at prospects 300 days a year and crunch videos are ignored.

AND thats exavtly why we have JUIolevi, and almost missed out on Petey. And it’s exactly why BEnning/Brod will pick a guy they’re saw at the U18s, even if the scouts don’t a agree.

 

[timw33]

Trying to catch up on the last several pages and all I have to say is that we simply haven't drafted enough quality players, and haven't drafted enough good D prospects for a team that has has finished in the bottom-10 this many times over 7 years/drafts to call the GM a good drafter.

We have a handful of good players, and not enough of them are at premium positions (centre/defence).

 

[SamInVan]

Those who make a point regarding Jim Benning's good drafting decisions with EP and Hughes overlook OJ and Virtanen. And rounds 2 and beyond.

The Canucks cap problems and overall lack of depth do not point to a team that is drafting and developing players consistently into a system that produces results.

 

[Bubbles]

Those who make a point regarding Jim Benning's good drafting decisions with EP and Hughes overlook OJ and Virtanen. And rounds 2 and beyond.

The Canucks cap problems and overall lack of depth do not point to a team that is drafting and developing players consistently into a system that produces results.

Not only that, they always give Benning props for the 2014 Draft, when he was hired one month before. He had input on the 1st rounder (Jake) but the rest of the picks were the left to the scouting department.

Eric Crawford and the other scouts were all Gillis hires. Benning made zero changes before the draft, didn't even get Weisbrod until much later.

People are still posting that a guy that "runs out of time" in one month's time, is a great drafter. The whole 2014 Draft should be credited to Gillis for anyone that has a shred of intelligence.

 

[m9]

Not only that, they always give Benning props for the 2014 Draft, when he was hired one month before. He had input on the 1st rounder (Jake) but the rest of the picks were the left to the scouting department.

Eric Crawford and the other scouts were all Gillis hires. Benning made zero changes before the draft, didn't even get Weisbrod until much later.

People are still posting that a guy that "runs out of time" in one month's time, is a great drafter. The whole 2014 Draft should be credited to Gillis for anyone that has a shred of intelligence.

I would disagree in that Benning's previous job would have put him in position to have strong opinions about the 2014 draft as the Assistant GM in Boston. Realistically, this is the draft he should have had the most influence over as you would think his personal scouting would be far less as a GM in future years than as an assistant GM.

I also find it extremely difficult to believe the organization would bring in a new GM known specifically for his scouting and then not let him have extensive input into the most important draft the franchise has had in 15 years.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Drafting one good player a year means the club has 10 good players in 10 years. Championship teams have 20 good players. Where are the other 10 coming from. Several of the drafted players will be UFAs within the 10 year span.

Drance is saying the 2020 draft will yield NO NHL players: ouch.

The best way to build is to trade assets like Schmidt, Horvat and Miller for 2 good young assets each.

Then backfill with the Nugent Hopkins' of the world until the Draft picks become core.

Trade and backfill and draft, trade and backfill and draft, trade and backfill and draft.

Canucks continually forget the trade part and most of the draft part.

 

[canuckking1]

Imac basically confirming Clarke is gone. Why is it so hard for this organization to keep actual talent?

 

[rypper]

The Skate: Rumours, who wants rumours? | The Province


Some interesting fodder in here. Namely that Courtnall and Gillis apparently had a falling out prior to Courtnall getting sober, but also addressing the elephant in the room of the allegations against Courtnall and the other Capitals players from the late 80s.

The Canucks were once a jewel in the league, spending like they actually cared about the players and staff. Like how modern education has put students in the centre of the experience, which has led to great successes for many more young people than ever before and leading to great benefits for society, the most successful sports franchises are putting the players at the centre of the experience.

That means taking care of everyone, which might cost a little more in the short term, but it’s the big picture that benefits. Under Gillis, the Canucks were spending a lot more than they are now on support systems for the players and coaches, but they also ended up making a lot more than they did now.

There may have been pushback from old-line thinkers elsewhere in the league and certainly in the media towards management — that’s what some people do towards things they don’t understand — but no one was calling the environment “toxic.”

Players used to want to come here. Now players have been getting extra years on their deals to be convinced to come here.

 

[Bubbles]

I would disagree in that Benning's previous job would have put him in position to have strong opinions about the 2014 draft as the Assistant GM in Boston. Realistically, this is the draft he should have had the most influence over as you would think his personal scouting would be far less as a GM in future years than as an assistant GM.

I also find it extremely difficult to believe the organization would bring in a new GM known specifically for his scouting and then not let him have extensive input into the most important draft the franchise has had in 15 years.

It's a fact around the NHL that a GM only really has sway over the 1st rounder of any draft. Yes, he's responsible for building a department and having people in charge, but actual opinions on players should be left to the department.

In general, a GM gets way too much credit, or too much blame for drafts.

My point is that 2014, shouldn't be really credited to Benning. The argument could be for Gillis, but I also accept it should be a wash.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I wonder who referred to the Canucks organization as ‘toxic.’ Not that there’s anything wrong with that @I am toxic

Ironic given how toxic was a word used to describe those critical of management.

 

[VanJack]

Reading all this Geoff Courtnall stuff really starts to make you wonder about Francesco as an owner. Nothing against Courtnall, who is apparently a good friend of Francesco, and has advised him on Canuck management issues before.

But other than being a good bud of Francesco and a member of the Canuck Oldtimers, I'm at a loss to grasp exactly what he brings to the table in terms of past experience or knowledge about building expertise on the NHL management side.

It's sort of like turning over the future of your $750,000 million franchise to a drinking buddy.

 

[m9]

It's a fact around the NHL that a GM only really has sway over the 1st rounder of any draft. Yes, he's responsible for building a department and having people in charge, but actual opinions on players should be left to the department.

In general, a GM gets way too much credit, or too much blame for drafts.

My point is that 2014, shouldn't be really credited to Benning. The argument could be for Gillis, but I also accept it should be a wash.

I just disagree with the premise that a new GM brought in to specifically improve the drafting/scouting would not have a major impact on a draft where they had 3 picks in the top 36. Especially knowing now how much he doesn't value outside opinions and knowing that his previous role put him in a role where he likely felt he had a good handle on the draft.

I think he continued to have major influence through 2015/2016. The 2016 misfire pushed the team to let Brackett/scouts have more involvement for the 2017/18 drafts as seen on the video I posted above.

I don't have a great read on 2019, and then in 2020 it was obviously back to Benning being the major influence.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Imac basically confirming Clarke is gone. Why is it so hard for this organization to keep actual talent?

Honestly iMac has been and remains the worst source of unbiased news reporting in the market followed by 'C the Homer' Mac.

Maybe they play cards with MacGreener?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Reading all this Geoff Courtnall stuff really starts to make you wonder about Francesco as an owner. Nothing against Courtnall, who is apparently a good friend of Francesco, and has advised him on Canuck management issues before.

But other than being a good bud of Francesco and a member of the Canuck Oldtimers, I'm at a loss to grasp exactly what he brings to the table in terms of past experience or knowledge about building expertise on the NHL management side.

It's sort of like turning over the future of your $750,000 million franchise to a drinking buddy.

 

[Hammer79]

Reading all this Geoff Courtnall stuff really starts to make you wonder about Francesco as an owner. Nothing against Courtnall, who is apparently a good friend of Francesco, and has advised him on Canuck management issues before.

But other than being a good bud of Francesco and a member of the Canuck Oldtimers, I'm at a loss to grasp exactly what he brings to the table in terms of past experience or knowledge about building expertise on the NHL management side.

It's sort of like turning over the future of your $750,000 million franchise to a drinking buddy.

That's all that is, this franchise is just a toy, one that is bleeding cash profusely. You could put the best GM in the league here and get the same results.... well, maybe not, because the best GM would quit and not sign off on FA's micromanagement. Let's put the finger of blame where it belongs, on Francesco. Benning is just his yes-man, signing off on his stupid signings. For me, the real sign was Tanner Pearson's contract. That reeks of "Oh well, if this doesn't work, I have to sell the team anyway, year 3 is someone else's problem"

This is a team whose stock has eroded tremendously with the fanbase, one which more than likely can't push merchandise, one that is up against the cap ceiling and lots of dead money in the minors, one which went from having a season ticket waitlist to having season ticket cancellations, one that alienated conservative fans by lumping them with anti-maskers in the Mark Donnelly fiasco and banned anyone from the arena that didn't agree with his post. (To be clear, Donnelly shouldn't have evoked the Canucks name, but FA also went overboard in response to posts saying he was 'virtue signaling'.) Now, with Seattle coming in, there will be regional competition for tickets, driving down demand. The franchise has been in a shadow war with local media. Then, the Jake Virtanen fiasco, where the team tried to obstruct justice by conducting a private investigation rather than filing a police report. Why is he scared to have law enforcement look into his team? Is FA involved with organized crime? I'm starting to wonder honestly.

This team will never right ship while FA is in charge. Also, Tanev wanted nothing to do with that video tribute and former Canucks clearly despise this team's management. Why have the Sedins stayed away from management? What do they know that we don't? Why Geoff Courtnall, but not Henrik? That's fishy to me. Then, there is Green being left out to hang with no contract extension. Traditionally, you would fire Green so he can find another job next year and bring in a new coach to get to know the players before the summer break. Why isn't this being done? I think it's to save a few bucks. I believe this team to be on the verge of bankruptcy and what we are witnessing are the death throes of a corrupt owner throwing whatever at the wall until it sticks.

Until FA is gone, I'm done with this team.

 

[I am toxic]

Yes, there have been discussions about how off-ice investment in players and coaches - like we saw with Gillis - are not subject to the cap, and a great area for competitive advantage.

However, the deflection from topics like that onto falsehoods like Benning is a draft guru or some such have to be addressed, before honest debate can take place.

 

[M2Beezy]

Do y'all actually like hockey or is this just debate club for you guys?

Havent watched a hockey game in years tbh, just love this place

 

[M2Beezy]

Lol canucks GM smarter than a Potato (and that’s debatable...)! This thread has been quite something the last 24-48 hours.

I never quite understand why we should be insulting potatoes

 

[YeahHeDid]

Trying to catch up on the last several pages and all I have to say is that we simply haven't drafted enough quality players, and haven't drafted enough good D prospects for a team that has has finished in the bottom-10 this many times over 7 years/drafts to call the GM a good drafter.

We have a handful of good players, and not enough of them are at premium positions (centre/defence).

they gave up on 2 centers that they shouldnt have. Another stain on this GMs tenure. Keeping Virtanen and trading McCann

 

[Hit the post]

Reading all this Geoff Courtnall stuff really starts to make you wonder about Francesco as an owner. Nothing against Courtnall, who is apparently a good friend of Francesco, and has advised him on Canuck management issues before.

But other than being a good bud of Francesco and a member of the Canuck Oldtimers, I'm at a loss to grasp exactly what he brings to the table in terms of past experience or knowledge about building expertise on the NHL management side.

It's sort of like turning over the future of your $750,000 million franchise to a drinking buddy.

Geoff was good at hanging around up the ice for a pass looking for an easy breakaway.. He played sometimes with a chip on his shoulder so I could overlook that.


We all know he worshipped Linden until Trev had to straighten out Fredo.

 

[Bubbles]

I just disagree with the premise that a new GM brought in to specifically improve the drafting/scouting would not have a major impact on a draft where they had 3 picks in the top 36. Especially knowing now how much he doesn't value outside opinions and knowing that his previous role put him in a role where he likely felt he had a good handle on the draft.

I think he continued to have major influence through 2015/2016. The 2016 misfire pushed the team to let Brackett/scouts have more involvement for the 2017/18 drafts as seen on the video I posted above.

I don't have a great read on 2019, and then in 2020 it was obviously back to Benning being the major influence.

Benning has a solid resume of drafting background, but he was AGM of the Bruins from 2006 and on. Not director of amateur scouting, which was his title in Buffalo.

My point is that the entire scouting staff such as Eric Crawford and Gilman, was put in place by Gillis because he realized that his scouting/drafting was weak during his tenure.

To me, saying Benning knew a lot of players like Forsling, or Tryamkin is a weak argument.

Benning leaned on Crawford and Gilman for the 2014 draft, just look at where they are at the table. From then on it's Weisbrod all the time.

 

[M2Beezy]

Wait whats this about the goalie coach not coming back??? Is this for real?? He was like the last good guy left in management wasnt he??? Cmon say it aint so

 

[MS]

Not only that, they always give Benning props for the 2014 Draft, when he was hired one month before. He had input on the 1st rounder (Jake) but the rest of the picks were the left to the scouting department.

Eric Crawford and the other scouts were all Gillis hires. Benning made zero changes before the draft, didn't even get Weisbrod until much later.

People are still posting that a guy that "runs out of time" in one month's time, is a great drafter. The whole 2014 Draft should be credited to Gillis for anyone that has a shred of intelligence.

On 2014 :

- We know from Benning himself that he mostly sat back and evaluated as the existing draft staff put together their list, only interjecting occasionally. I can't find the link but I'm sure someone can.

- We know Benning (maybe with ownership influence) overruled the scouts to take Virtanen.

- sources posted earlier in this thread indicate that Benning was set on Bleackley at #24, but then 'leaned on the scouts' when Bleakley was gone. So that's a Gillis/Crawford pick. And the same sources seem to indicate something similar happened at #36 when Benning wanted Hawryluk.

- Benning didn't even know what league Tryamkin was playing in at the time he was drafted. And it's been confirmed that that was a Sergei Chibisev pick that Chibisev had been working on all year. Benning's 'sitting back and evaluating the scouts' meant that that pick was allowed to happen when Gillis might not have ... but it's definitely a Crawford staff pick nevertheless.

- given how quickly Benning fired Forsling out of a cannon, I'd suspect he was also a scouting staff pick. Benning constantly prematurely dumps players tied to other people and doubles/triples down on guys he backed so it would be *very * out of character for him to have pushed for Forsling and then quickly traded him.

So basically it is a hybrid draft, but most of the good that happened in that draft seems to be directly from Crawford and from the existing work the scouts were doing under Gillis. Tryamkin was a weird one because it wasn't really Benning but wouldn't have happened under Gillis.

 

[MS]

Benning has a solid resume of drafting background, but he was AGM of the Bruins from 2006 and on. Not director of amateur scouting, which was his title in Buffalo.

My point is that the entire scouting staff such as Eric Crawford and Gilman, was put in place by Gillis because he realized that his scouting/drafting was weak during his tenure.

To me, saying Benning knew a lot of players like Forsling, or Tryamkin is a weak argument.

Benning leaned on Crawford and Gilman for the 2014 draft, just look at where they are at the table. From then on it's Weisbrod all the time.

Benning ran the amateur scouting arm of the organization as part of his GM duties in Boston. Even PoM has eventually admitted that this was the case.

Basically what he was doing in Boston is pretty much identical to what he's done here. None of the other management figures there (Chiarelli, Neely, Sweeney) had any amateur scouting background.