Management Thread | Is a Reckoning coming?

[Scorvat]

i agree with this except change 2011 for 2012.

people who praise gillis need to remember he is the gm equivalent of francesco. he inherited enormous hockey wealth that he did not earn and he rapidly squandered it. this is a guy who was gifted two art ross winners entering their prime, one of whom was a 1c hart, plus a selke level 40 goal scoring 2c, a hall of fame goalie, and a solid supporting cast.

he got that core to the semifinals twice, and to the scf once. big deal. the team then went into decline and he was eventually deservedly fired, and for all the ego-protecting spin this guy has relentlessly spun since then about wanting to go to switzerland and study glaciers, nobody has hired him again in real hockey.

Sigh..... not this again

The real reason people are clamoring for Gilles is because it's the perfect story and the fact that he was the antithesis to everything Benning represents. It just fits narratively in the mind. I think even if he improbably does come back it will be a very laid back minor role

 

[RandV]

if is was a betting man, what odds will people give me on

alex burrows coach
roberto luongo gm

stand by.

Odds of Luongo being GM here is minuscule unless you can resolve the family related issue that caused him to want to leave Vancouver in the first place.

 

[The Jester]

I personally have a hard time seeing Gillis coming back here. I think there’s a lot of water under that bridge.

Even though I would be a fan of him coming back, up until recently I felt there was zero chance and that it was a fantasy.

I still don’t feel like it'll happen, but I do think there’s a small chance, especially if Francesco is replaced by Roberto or someone else as chairman.

It would make a sense to me that Roberto would come in, look at the state of the team, and the brand and consider going back to the person who had their brand at its pinnacle at one point, and a great team on the ice.

At the same time, while it may be difficult for Gillis to come back to a Francesco lead situation, it makes sense he would consider a new voice in Roberto.

The Geoff Courtnall whispers and his connection to Gillis also add to this and you’ve got to think if Courtnall comes in, he would at least attempt to add Gillis in some capacity.

As I said, I still think the possibility of a Gillis return are remote, but the door is open a sliver now.

 

[Hyzer]

The blood is in the water boys.

For the first time in 7 years, everyone is on the same page to fire this clown.

I've had to this profile pic since 2014. I hope to God that I will get it to change it soon in celebration

 

[I am toxic]

Who crowd funded the FIREBENNING flying banner?

For those who want Gillis back, do a HIREGILLIS flying banner.

I want the Carolina people.

But flying a banner that reads HIRESOMEPEOPLEWHOSNAMEICANTSPELLFROMCAROLINA may not have the same effect.

And the plane may crash.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I would add to that to me it seemed like a lot of Benning adoration came specifically as a counterpoint to hating on Gillis. It was quite impressive the amount of investment against Gillis that came in from around the league, a lot of Canuck fans bought into it, then hooray Gillis gets fired and along comes Jim Benning who's the exact opposite of him. So that's good because Gillis sucked right?

And of course the reason Gillis gets brought up in these things half the time is as some sort of justification for Benning's lack of results.

this is a kinder and more mature take than mine

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

The 'count your chickens' crowd on both sides of the Gillis and Benning debate appear to like moral, shades of grey, victories.

Not that it matters, but I view both Gillis and Benning equally, at the end of the day, as losers.

However, I regard every team, each year, that does not win the Cup as losers.

Given these criteria, until some GM delivers the Franchise to the promised land, the best I hope for is to be moderately entertained and for logical decision making.

I am often disappointed.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

There's also a huge redemption/"get the job done" storyline.

Team needs to get an old and battered Bruins team in the finals and hopefully before their core retires. I nominate Hoglander to punch Bergeron in the face over and over in front of the referees while Bruins fans cry foul. Screw game 7, sweep them in 4 with a blowout at TD Gardens in Game 4.

 

[I am toxic]

this is a more diplomatic and mature take than mine

Gillis and Quinn are - correctly - considered the top GM's this org has ever had.

Benning is - correctly - considered the worst GM this org has ever had.

That some would pretend that there is a cult of Gillis when there is only a cult of Benning is of course predictable.

It's another of those intellectually dishonest bad faith arguments. Projection, in this case.

Goes along with deflection, strawman, and of course always winds up at personal attacks.

Because that is all that there is to defend Benning and Weisbrod with. Fallacies.

 

[m9]

Friedman insinuated in his radio hit earlier this week that there might be some long term bad feelings over this. He didn’t list the COVID incident or management’s response to it specifically, but he’s spoken publicly about it enough times that I think the inference was clear (IMO).

I think this is definitely the case.

I've seen people point to the Pearson signing and say "why let a guy make this move if he's on his way out?" but I really think at that time the plan was to bring Benning back. And hey, maybe it still is.

But if a change is made, I do believe their handling of covid will ultimately be their downfall. If the players had issues with any part of the process from how lax management were on protocols to the poor communication during the return to play then they will push the for change. Players will put up with a ton but they will not put up with poor management being a root cause for their own families and/or the families of their teammates being put at risk. I think at the appropriate time you might see the lid blown off this potential players/management rift that has been brewing since last off-season and peaked during the Covid outbreak.

 

[The Optimist]

I want Gillis back if only to see the mental gymnastics of the Benning Bros I know personally. To them the franchise can do no wrong and yet they hate Gillis for ... reasons? How do they bridge the gap of the franchise hiring Gillis? This is the drama I live for.

 

[m9]

The Gillis talk intrigues me, but for whatever reason it still seems too early in the "cycle" to bring him back with only one GM in between.

If they had fired Benning in 2017 and then fired another guy this year then I would find it more possible since that would give the illusion of distance. But as it stands, I would be extremely surprised if Gillis is back in any fashion this time around.

 

[Dab]

I think it was the JT Miller and Bo Horvat statements in the last few weeks that really got the attention of Luigi/Roberto/Paolo etc. I think until then they were content to let Francesco run the team as his toy.

I think it’s mostly non-hockey related things that are causing some friction within the family.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

i agree with this except change 2011 for 2012.

people who praise gillis need to remember he is the gm equivalent of francesco. he inherited enormous hockey wealth that he did not earn and he rapidly squandered it. this is a guy who was gifted two art ross winners entering their prime, one of whom was a 1c hart, plus a selke level 40 goal scoring 2c, a hall of fame goalie, and a solid supporting cast.

he got that core to the semifinals twice, and to the scf once. big deal. the team then went into decline and he was eventually deservedly fired, and for all the ego-protecting spin this guy has relentlessly spun since then about wanting to go to switzerland and study glaciers, nobody has hired him again in real hockey.

Agreed. I think the problem is that some people perceive any criticism of Gillis as praise of Benning. It’s possible to think that Benning is our worst GM ever without thinking that Gillis should get another shot after the poor job he did at the end of his tenure. As you say, he was deservedly fired and hasn’t been hired since.
Let’s clean house and go in a completely different direction.

 

[Dab]

I personally have a hard time seeing Gillis coming back here. I think there’s a lot of water under that bridge.

If Courtnall is advising Aquilini Gillis is involved. Who do you think advises Courtnall?

 

[Nucker101]

I know we’re desperate but man some people really are putting a shit ton of faith into Sekeres here lol

Don’t go home with hope boys, we’re Canuck fans after all

 

[Melvin]

i agree with this except change 2011 for 2012.

people who praise gillis need to remember he is the gm equivalent of francesco. he inherited enormous hockey wealth that he did not earn and he rapidly squandered it. this is a guy who was gifted two art ross winners entering their prime, one of whom was a 1c hart, plus a selke level 40 goal scoring 2c, a hall of fame goalie, and a solid supporting cast.

he got that core to the semifinals twice, and to the scf once. big deal. the team then went into decline and he was eventually deservedly fired, and for all the ego-protecting spin this guy has relentlessly spun since then about wanting to go to switzerland and study glaciers, nobody has hired him again in real hockey.

This is the corollary to the wrong-headed idea that building the "core" is the difficult or even the important part. After years of watching young cores in Edmonton, Buffalo, and Vancouver all crash and burn, somehow people still believe this. That amazing core that Gillis inherited missed the playoffs the previous year. Do you remember?

The 2007-08 Vancouver Canucks with:

27 year old Henrik Sedin
27 year old Daniel Sedin
23 year old Ryan Kesler
26 year old Alex Burrows
21 year old Alex Edler
26 year old Kevin Bieksa
28 year old Roberto Luongo

... finished dead last in the division.

Why? Because Nonis is a garbage GM. Gillis took that core and turned them into the best team in the NHL, something that literally no other GM has been able to do in team history. To brush that off as not a "big deal" is so mind-bogglingly ignorant considering everything we've seen since. Our current regime couldn't even sniff the playoffs with this incredible young core that everyone is raving about. Three straight calder finalists! Superstars on ELC's! And one of the very worst team in the league.

No. Putting together the "young core" is the easy part. The NHL literally designs the league for this to be the case. Building the rest of the team out of your remaining capspace is by far where the GM earns his dollars, and Gillis did it in spades. It is just mind blowing that people seem to think this is no big deal. Again, that amazing core that he "inherited" was an absolute joke under Nonis.

ALSO, why are people so reticent to acknowledge the step forwards that so many players made under Gillis? To say that he inherited "Art Ross Winners" is pure revisionist fantasy bullshit. At the time that Gillis took over the team, the Sedins were largely viewed as disappointments in Vancouver, were not currently under contract, and at 27 years old had likely already peaked. Half the damn city DID NOT WANT TO RE-SIGN THEM. Gillis took over, made the decision to invest in them again, and helped them take their game to the next level.

It's funny, people love to joke about "SlEep DocTorS" but nobody wants to acknowledge that:

a) The Canucks under Gillis were one of the teams at the forefront of investing and researching performance science, and wanted to be at the absolute cutting edge in figuring out how to squeeze every ounce of performance under its players.
b) The Canucks under Gillis saw almost every single player mentioned about take their game a step forward from where they were under Burke/Nonis

:thinkingface:

- Sedins finally reached their potential and won back-to-back Art Ross trophies
- Burrows becomes a 40 goal scorer
- Kesler becomes a 30 goal scorer
etc

NOT A SINGLE PERSON thought those things were going to happen when Nonis was the GM. Not even their mothers. To just hand wave that away as "he inherited Art Ross winners" is incredibly ignorant to an almost unbelievable degree.

Contrast this with Benning, BTW, under whom every single impressive rookie seems to backpedal a year after they get here. Not one of Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes looks like a better player than they did in their rookie year. Horvat also hasn't taken his game to a new level in 5 years or so.

But yah, the Sedins were already considered Art Ross winners when Gillis took over, you're so right.

People need to shake this way of thinking out of their brains. It is NOT difficult to put together a "young core." Benning himself has proven this. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to take a solid core and turn it into an elite franchise.

 

[4Twenty]

This is the corollary to the wrong-headed idea that building the "core" is the difficult or even the important part. After years of watching young cores in Edmonton, Buffalo, and Vancouver all crash and burn, somehow people still believe this. That amazing core that Gillis inherited missed the playoffs the previous year. Do you remember?

The 2007-08 Vancouver Canucks with:

27 year old Henrik Sedin
27 year old Daniel Sedin
23 year old Ryan Kesler
26 year old Alex Burrows
21 year old Alex Edler
26 year old Kevin Bieksa
28 year old Roberto Luongo

... finished dead last in the division.

Why? Because Nonis is a garbage GM. Gillis took that core and turned them into the best team in the NHL, something that literally no other GM has been able to do in team history. To brush that off as not a "big deal" is so mind-bogglingly ignorant considering everything we've seen since. Our current regime couldn't even sniff the playoffs with this incredible young core that everyone is raving about. Three straight calder finalists! Superstars on ELC's! And one of the very worst team in the league.

No. Putting together the "young core" is the easy part. The NHL literally designs the league for this to be the case. Building the rest of the team out of your remaining capspace is by far where the GM earns his dollars, and Gillis did it in spades. It is just mind blowing that people seem to think this is no big deal. Again, that amazing core that he "inherited" was an absolute joke under Nonis.

ALSO, why are people so reticent to acknowledge the step forwards that so many players made under Gillis? To say that he inherited "Art Ross Winners" is pure revisionist fantasy bullshit. At the time that Gillis took over the team, the Sedins were largely viewed as disappointments in Vancouver, were not currently under contract, and at 27 years old had likely already peaked. Half the damn city DID NOT WANT TO RE-SIGN THEM. Gillis took over, made the decision to invest in them again, and helped them take their game to the next level.

It's funny, people love to joke about "SlEep DocTorS" but nobody wants to acknowledge that:

a) The Canucks under Gillis were one of the teams at the forefront of investing and researching performance science, and wanted to be at the absolute cutting edge in figuring out how to squeeze every ounce of performance under its players.
b) The Canucks under Gillis saw almost every single player mentioned about take their game a step forward from where they were under Burke/Nonis

:thinkingface:

- Sedins finally reached their potential and won back-to-back Art Ross trophies
- Burrows becomes a 40 goal scorer
- Kesler becomes a 30 goal scorer
etc

NOT A SINGLE PERSON thought those things were going to happen when Nonis was the GM. Not even their mothers. To just hand wave that away as "he inherited Art Ross winners" is incredibly ignorant to an almost unbelievable degree.

Contrast this with Benning, BTW, under whom every single impressive rookie seems to backpedal a year after they get here. Not one of Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes looks like a better player than they did in their rookie year. Horvat also hasn't taken his game to a new level in 5 years or so.

But yah, the Sedins were already considered Art Ross winners when Gillis took over, you're so right.

People need to shake this way of thinking out of their brains. It is NOT difficult to put together a "young core." Benning himself has proven this. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to take a solid core and turn it into an elite franchise.

LIKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[arttk]

i agree with this except change 2011 for 2012.

people who praise gillis need to remember he is the gm equivalent of francesco. he inherited enormous hockey wealth that he did not earn and he rapidly squandered it. this is a guy who was gifted two art ross winners entering their prime, one of whom was a 1c hart, plus a selke level 40 goal scoring 2c, a hall of fame goalie, and a solid supporting cast.

he got that core to the semifinals twice, and to the scf once. big deal. the team then went into decline and he was eventually deservedly fired, and for all the ego-protecting spin this guy has relentlessly spun since then about wanting to go to switzerland and study glaciers, nobody has hired him again in real hockey.

There are a ton of GMs that “built” the core of their team but could never push their core into contention. Look at Florida, Buffalo and there is a long list. He’ll look at Edmonton with top 2 players in the league and they can’t round out the roster.

 

[MS]

This is the corollary to the wrong-headed idea that building the "core" is the difficult or even the important part. After years of watching young cores in Edmonton, Buffalo, and Vancouver all crash and burn, somehow people still believe this. That amazing core that Gillis inherited missed the playoffs the previous year. Do you remember?

The 2007-08 Vancouver Canucks with:

27 year old Henrik Sedin
27 year old Daniel Sedin
23 year old Ryan Kesler
26 year old Alex Burrows
21 year old Alex Edler
26 year old Kevin Bieksa
28 year old Roberto Luongo

... finished dead last in the division.

Why? Because Nonis is a garbage GM. Gillis took that core and turned them into the best team in the NHL, something that literally no other GM has been able to do in team history. To brush that off as not a "big deal" is so mind-bogglingly ignorant considering everything we've seen since. Our current regime couldn't even sniff the playoffs with this incredible young core that everyone is raving about. Three straight calder finalists! Superstars on ELC's! And one of the very worst team in the league.

No. Putting together the "young core" is the easy part. The NHL literally designs the league for this to be the case. Building the rest of the team out of your remaining capspace is by far where the GM earns his dollars, and Gillis did it in spades. It is just mind blowing that people seem to think this is no big deal. Again, that amazing core that he "inherited" was an absolute joke under Nonis.

ALSO, why are people so reticent to acknowledge the step forwards that so many players made under Gillis? To say that he inherited "Art Ross Winners" is pure revisionist fantasy bullshit. At the time that Gillis took over the team, the Sedins were largely viewed as disappointments in Vancouver, were not currently under contract, and at 27 years old had likely already peaked. Half the damn city DID NOT WANT TO RE-SIGN THEM. Gillis took over, made the decision to invest in them again, and helped them take their game to the next level.

It's funny, people love to joke about "SlEep DocTorS" but nobody wants to acknowledge that:

a) The Canucks under Gillis were one of the teams at the forefront of investing and researching performance science, and wanted to be at the absolute cutting edge in figuring out how to squeeze every ounce of performance under its players.
b) The Canucks under Gillis saw almost every single player mentioned about take their game a step forward from where they were under Burke/Nonis

:thinkingface:

- Sedins finally reached their potential and won back-to-back Art Ross trophies
- Burrows becomes a 40 goal scorer
- Kesler becomes a 30 goal scorer
etc

NOT A SINGLE PERSON thought those things were going to happen when Nonis was the GM. Not even their mothers. To just hand wave that away as "he inherited Art Ross winners" is incredibly ignorant to an almost unbelievable degree.

Contrast this with Benning, BTW, under whom every single impressive rookie seems to backpedal a year after they get here. Not one of Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes looks like a better player than they did in their rookie year. Horvat also hasn't taken his game to a new level in 5 years or so.

But yah, the Sedins were already considered Art Ross winners when Gillis took over, you're so right.

People need to shake this way of thinking out of their brains. It is NOT difficult to put together a "young core." Benning himself has proven this. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to take a solid core and turn it into an elite franchise.

This should be stickied to the top of every management thread.

It’s beyond frustrating how many people think that finishing in 29th place and taking a good young player with a free pick from the league = great GMing!!! but turning a mediocre team going nowhere into a powerhouse is ‘oh, he just inherited players’.

Does anyone actually think the Sedins turn into 110-point players if Nonis remains GM?

 

[Melvin]

I don't want to like name-drop or anything but when I was working for a sports team last year I got to talk to a couple GM's, and in one of the conversations one of them talked to me about the sports science conferences he goes to and the contacts he's made even in other sports. It turns out he is good friends with Jonathan Wall, because in 2010 or so, the Canucks were at every single one of these damn conferences, and were virtually the only NHL team with any presence, at least up until, oh I don't know, 2014 or so.

What's actually exciting to me about the prospect of Gillis returning is the re-investment in player development and performance science, and the idea that we might actually be able to see Petey, Horvat, etc. take their game to the next level. I already witnesed this once with the Sedins. How cool would it be to see this again! But of course if this happens, every idiot on the internet will say "durr, inherited core, didn't do anything." Because somehow we haven't learned yet that Player Development is a thing, as if players are just static assets whose path to success is set in stone at the moment of "inheritance."

 

[m9]

The hardest part of the job has always been paying your stars when they become much more expensive while still improving your team. That's what Gillis nailed.

This team has been a disaster for years.. and yet the upcoming years will be the most difficult.

 

[krutovsdonut]

lol. which gillis pieces and moves do you think suddenly made all those players so much better in one off season? name them.

alain vigneault was a better coach than marc crawford and was not wed to the wce core. a new core with depth hit its stride.

and gillis didn't even bring av to the canucks.

the end.

 

[Zippgunn]

Gillis and Quinn are - correctly - considered the top GM's this org has ever had.

Benning is - correctly - considered the worst GM this org has ever had.

That some would pretend that there is a cult of Gillis when there is only a cult of Benning is of course predictable.

It's another of those intellectually dishonest bad faith arguments. Projection, in this case.

Goes along with deflection, strawman, and of course always winds up at personal attacks.

Because that is all that there is to defend Benning and Weisbrod with. Fallacies.

Are these more of your "facts"?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

“lol” every player on that core talks about the transformative effect of the sundin signing

what nobody talks about, but was probably also a factor, was the sad but necessary move away from the previous swedish captain that same year