Management Thread | Inconceivable Edition

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

all the dunks are great. the aqua dunks, the benning dunks, the brian burke dunks, the colin campbell dunks...

but i think if he's going to get to sit in somebody's chair, he has to find a mark cuban. i don't know if the NHL has a mark cuban.

Nah. You just need a hands-off owner. There are a few of those around the league - Jeff Vinick, Hasso Plattner, the Samuelis.

 

[F A N]

Nah. You just need a hands-off GM. There are a few of those around the league - Jeff Vinick, Hasso Plattner, the Samuelis.

Interestingly, John McCaw was skewered for being an absentee GM for the longest time. That was before he sold Vancouver out.

 

[StreetHawk]

Jeff Vinnik? Tom Dundon maybe?

If Waddell ever leaves Carolina, that's probably the ideal spot for Gillis, with Eric Walsky as a perfect fit as his GM.

Carolina, didn't Dundon lowball someone who was highly thought of at the time in terms of salary? Gillis would want, depending on his role, something close to his $2 million that he last made with the Canucks. Plus, the cost of his management team in comparison to what most other clubs have in place.
Vinnik, they seem sometimes up and down, changing direction depending on whether they get immediate success with their go for it strategy.

Whenever you have 2 separate teams, there is competition in terms of us getting our guy vs the other group getting theirs, because you want your work to be vindicated/rewarded.

Again, I don't see Gillis returning to the NHL. He was let go when he was 54.5 years old, and he just turned 62 in December. Will be out of the game for 7 seasons by the time the playoffs roll around in April. I think by the end of the regular season in 2016 is when I would have expected Gillis to actively look for another opportunity. Gives him 2 years to get a break after 6 years on the job. Go explore and learn new stuff.

So, we are closing in on 5 years since then and how many GM changes have there been over that time? Has to be like half the NHL or more right? If he hasn't landed anywhere by now, I don't see him getting a second opportunity.

 

[joelCAMEL]

Ha, so a few things that stood out to me:


5) This is the best f***ing part of the doc because it is the direct dunk on Aquilini that I've been shouting for years now:

View attachment 389439

Forbes valued the Canucks at $800 mill in 2014 and $725 mill in 2020. Valuations are based on revenues and operating incomes and not on-ice performance. So you want Aquilini to raise ticket and merchandise prices, and not spend to the cap?

Edit: Maybe I read that wrong...are you just laughing at a billionaire for a paper loss on one of his investments?

 

[vancityluongo]

Forbes valued the Canucks at $800 mill in 2014 and $725 mill in 2020. Valuations are based on revenues and operating incomes and not on-ice performance. So you want Aquilini to raise ticket and merchandise prices, and not spend to the cap?

Edit: Maybe I read that wrong...are you just laughing at a billionaire for a paper loss on one of his investments?

I'll run the actual comparison again during a week where I'm not already hugely behind on work from following stocks lol... but as far as I can remember, the Canucks are the only team over that span to have a lower valuation. Most teams are up 20-25% as league revenues have significantly increased and the massive new TV deal kicked in.

We can argue semantics around the merits of different management styles all day long, but that has to be what stings Aquilini the most. Paper loss or not (and with the rumours that he's looking to sell the team but keep the arena...), no billionaire wants to have their capital deployed on something that loses money over 10 years while their peers all appreciate in value.

 

[StreetHawk]

I'll run the actual comparison again during a week where I'm not already hugely behind on work from following stocks lol... but as far as I can remember, the Canucks are the only team over that span to have a lower valuation. Most teams are up 20-25% as league revenues have significantly increased and the massive new TV deal kicked in.

We can argue semantics around the merits of different management styles all day long, but that has to be what stings Aquilini the most. Paper loss or not (and with the rumours that he's looking to sell the team but keep the arena...), no billionaire wants to have their capital deployed on something that loses money over 10 years while their peers all appreciate in value.

Seems like an odd decision to keep the arena if he wants to sell the team. One thing for a team to lease from the government, another from a private company.

 

[vancityluongo]

Seems like an odd decision to keep the arena if he wants to sell the team. One thing for a team to lease from the government, another from a private company.

Rumour is he wants the land for more condos hahah

 

[Melvin]

I guess he must think that groupthink was a major issue with the scouting during his time in Vancouver (thus the poor drafting)? Seems going a bit too far to solve the issue to me too though.

im sure he did but I’m just not super sure that’s valid. I don’t think the issue is everyone agreeing, the issue is everyone agreeing on something that is wrong.

 

[mathonwy]

Are the Canucks Great Again?

 

[Jyrki21]

Jeff Vinnik? Tom Dundon maybe?

If Waddell ever leaves Carolina, that's probably the ideal spot for Gillis, with Eric Walsky as a perfect fit as his GM.

I think you mean Eric Tulsky. Eric Walsky was an Alaskan prospect who was briefly in the Canucks' system.

 

[vancityluongo]

I think you mean Eric Tulsky. Eric Walsky was an Alaskan prospect who was briefly in the Canucks' system.

LMAO. Yes.

 

[RandV]

I agree wholeheartedly that the bad outweighs the good with Benning, by a sizable margin.

The issue is (and I am including myself with this) the rhetoric and way people choose to approach talking about Benning.

The hyperbole gets to be a little much. Like, is Benning really the worst GM in NHL history? I still think guys like Mike Milbury, Doug MacLean or Don Waddell rate as being worse than Benning.

If folks are being sincere, then cool, but it just comes off as being needlessly over the top.

I always make a distinction here that from what I've seen Benning is the most inept GM I've ever seen.

A lot of what gets people like Milbury a bad rap are those big explosive bad trades, there's a lot of insanity in his management that leads to that but he was still able to get some really good deals and put a playoff team together for a few seasons. You don't always have the opportunity to bomb these big deals though, and that's where Benning flies under the radar as he took over a veteran team at the end of it's competitive run.

But when it comes to all the little things, the consistent day to day ineptness, Benning makes the bottom from my perspective. Like if you rated GM's the way EA rates NHL players, he'd have the lowest grades across the board. He just hasn't made as big a splash as some other GM's have, his former boss Chiarelli in Edmonton for instance. Though often it's not for the lack of trying - attempted Lucic and Subban trades.

 

[VanillaCoke]

I just want gillis back.



Or zito

 

[vancityluongo]

I just want gillis back.



Or zito

Zito got hired by Florida, doubt he's available any time soon, especially since he just has to be better than Tallon lol.

 

[Raistlin]

Wait ... so you guys think he had his son leak the document? Okay, now this makes sense. I don't think this is a particularly bad look because I don't think that's what happened. Also -- he's the one who labelled the document "confidential."

110% its broadcasted with Gillis senior's approval.

 

[timw33]

The roaring 20's

 

[I am toxic]

No part of what I said was semantics and many other posters, including one who has worked in sports, reached an identical conclusion.

Appeal to . . . the mob?

Thanks bandy, if we can't rely on diverting the discussion with irrelevant minutiae , what's left? Honest debate?

 

[joelCAMEL]

I'll run the actual comparison again during a week where I'm not already hugely behind on work from following stocks lol... but as far as I can remember, the Canucks are the only team over that span to have a lower valuation. Most teams are up 20-25% as league revenues have significantly increased and the massive new TV deal kicked in.

We can argue semantics around the merits of different management styles all day long, but that has to be what stings Aquilini the most. Paper loss or not (and with the rumours that he's looking to sell the team but keep the arena...), no billionaire wants to have their capital deployed on something that loses money over 10 years while their peers all appreciate in value.

I had a little time today and I was curious about your observation about valuation performance. You are correct that the Canucks were the only top 10 team in 2014, to be devalued by Forbes in 2020. I did a sheet but it is pretty dry, unless you like to look at numbers. The team also noticed that revenues, through box office sales, were decreasing during Gillis's last season as GM, which Mikey correctly omitted from his presentation.
Vancouver Canucks end sellout streak after 11 seasons

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Pat Brisson was a candidate for the Pens job when Rutherford got it. I'd have a lot of time for a guy like him as Canucks GM.

 

[I am toxic]

I'll run the actual comparison again during a week where I'm not already hugely behind on work from following stocks lol... but as far as I can remember, the Canucks are the only team over that span to have a lower valuation. Most teams are up 20-25% as league revenues have significantly increased and the massive new TV deal kicked in.

We can argue semantics around the merits of different management styles all day long, but that has to be what stings Aquilini the most. Paper loss or not (and with the rumours that he's looking to sell the team but keep the arena...), no billionaire wants to have their capital deployed on something that loses money over 10 years while their peers all appreciate in value.

Again, shows most people have a fundamental misunderstanding of opportunity costs.

For example, referring to it as a paper loss - ownership could have sold when it was at that higher ($800M?) value and invested in something that generated a return over that half decade. I will leave it to the semantics crowd to argue over whether the return over that time would be $50 million or $100M, or whether you are allowed to use the letter "M" to denote "million" instead of "thousand" or "moronic."

 

[F A N]

I always make a distinction here that from what I've seen Benning is the most inept GM I've ever seen.

A lot of what gets people like Milbury a bad rap are those big explosive bad trades, there's a lot of insanity in his management that leads to that but he was still able to get some really good deals and put a playoff team together for a few seasons. You don't always have the opportunity to bomb these big deals though, and that's where Benning flies under the radar as he took over a veteran team at the end of it's competitive run.

But when it comes to all the little things, the consistent day to day ineptness, Benning makes the bottom from my perspective. Like if you rated GM's the way EA rates NHL players, he'd have the lowest grades across the board. He just hasn't made as big a splash as some other GM's have, his former boss Chiarelli in Edmonton for instance. Though often it's not for the lack of trying - attempted Lucic and Subban trades.

I agree that Milbury gets a bad rap but he did take over a team that had a good group of early to mid 20 year olds. The scouting staff that was in place also did a decent job. Milbury could afford to trade McCabe.

As for making a splash, blockbuster trades rarely happen and I'm not even sure you want Benning making a big splash.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Makes you wonder about FA's nephew as a dressing room attendant and Benning's son as a amateur scout etc.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

Obviously the club is at a crossroads with their three best players also being their three oldest.

 

[geebaan]

This thread has come to defending Mike Milbury. Wow.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Appeal to . . . the mob?

Thanks bandy, if we can't rely on diverting the discussion with irrelevant minutiae , what's left? Honest debate?

I feel like that’s an empty threat in this thread.

In any case, I wasn’t claiming the conclusion is correct because many people believe it but pointing out you only seem to question it when it comes from certain posters. It’s ... I can hardly bring myself to say the word ... okay, breath ... I can do this ... disingenuous.