PK Cronin
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I don't understand then. You wanted them to spend a lot of assets to fix the top 6 and PP? Who would you have liked to see them get given the cost?
New York Islanders: Lou Lamoriello Discussion
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I don't understand then. You wanted them to spend a lot of assets to fix the top 6 and PP? Who would you have liked to see them get given the cost?
The Winter Soldier
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Chatting with some Sabres fans on their board. Including our own @sabremike
This came up. Reinhart in trade talk. Not Griffin BTW. Had to throw that in there.
But this is exactly the type of off the radar trade that Lou can pull off. I suggested Beauvillier and a first for him. Doesn't have to be Sam. But this is the type of deal that would appeal to me for the Isles.
This came up. Reinhart in trade talk. Not Griffin BTW. Had to throw that in there.
But this is exactly the type of off the radar trade that Lou can pull off. I suggested Beauvillier and a first for him. Doesn't have to be Sam. But this is the type of deal that would appeal to me for the Isles.
Trotz wouldn’t have returned Snow’s call. If Quenneville can sit out and wait for the roght situation to materialize, Barry Trotz certainly had the leverage to do the same. Instead he came to the Island BECAUSE OF Lou Lamoriello.
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Nope, didn't write that either.
I'm saying that the PP and the missing Top 6 forward have been clear-cut weaknesses that were addressed in no way whatsoever.
Nothing. Nada.
And now these weaknesses are as blatant as ever right in a time where the difference between a playoff spot and non-playoff spot could be as simple as a 3-game losing streak.
Thus, any proper, objective assessment of Lou's work as a GM this season will have to take the analysis and addressing - or rather, lack thereof - of these two major weaknesses into account.
Nothing was attempted - as in no-one was ultimately brought in as an attempt - to alter the course of a problem that the players at hand couldn't address over a 55-game span.
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PK Cronin
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So you're pointing out a problem we're all aware of, judging Lamoriello for not addressing the issue, but don't want to say what he should have done to address the issue...? That's a really shallow assessment.
What specifically did you want Lamoriello to do?
The ineffective PP is due to the lack of scoring from the same guys who aren’t scoring enough at 5v5 right now; Barzal, Eberle, Bailey, Nelson, Beauvillier, Leddy. To find the player you’re looking for would have likely meant trading one of those guys and a prospect likely Noah Dobson. That would have basically creating a new hole to patch an existing hole.
Even thought Staple reported that Lou was in on Stone and Duchene right up to the TDL and you still say he didn’t try to address the top 6?
Islanders4Cups
Registered User
I am amazed how quickly changed their tune as we went from predicted to be battling for the cellar to battling for first place in the Metro and just a few tweaks away from changing results drastically.
Unfortunately I don’t buy that a tweak could achieve drastic changes in results you are asking for given the roster and some of the contact situations the Isles are in.
I will have to go on record to say I am glad they did not pay the equivalent price for players some teams did in draft picks and assets.
I do not consider the trading deadline a fail and I consider the first season a huge success.
The Isles will have some maneuvering to do to be able to beat teams like Tampa and the Bruins who in my opinion are primed for the cup. My hope is they won’t face them until the semis. No tweak as going to fix that for the prices offered.
This team needs to focus on what they are good at, secure a first round date with Columbus, Pittsburgh (or I fear Carolina) and make it a series.
In the off-season, Lou will continue towards making this team the best it can be for opening night in Belmont.
Successes until that point is just gravy.
Hardly - even as one of Lou's absolute backers, it must be noted that there were clear weaknesses on this team, they were not addressed from the outside in any way while the opportunity was there, and now placing the onus on the present group of players to somehow figure out or solve those weaknesses from within has backfired.
This development must be added into any objective assessment one makes of Lou's work to date with the Isles.
No-one's calling for his head here.
Any supporter needs to be able to see this situation dryly.
MY TAKE AT THE TIME, since you ask:
I posted quite a bit heading up to the Trade Deadline.
Without losing valuable futures or bringing in guys "just for the sake of not being idle" (i.e. like Snow did with Davidson last spring), I thought Lou would have been able to add a guy with a poorer contract for whom we may not pay much of anything in trade currency, but would have been an attempt at directly addressing both issues (example: Kovalchuk).
Or he could have decided to part with certain players who he doesn't already plan with next season for currency to then pick up someone who could help more than said player (i.e. moving Eberle, then bringing in a Nyquist with the return).
Naturally, none of us can say we know what he was in on or what prices were bandied about.
We can judge by some other deals that a couple of fairly reasonable logical shots at attempting to address those needs were on the market and could have been deemed worth getting for the price they went for.
But I'M not the GM. I can only theorize.
But I and everyone else in Islanderville can see the following:
The GM has a construction site. Everyone can see what's missing on the construction site. No-one sees the GM bringing in a solution for dealing with what's missing on the construction site. The GM claims the solution will have to come from within. What's missing at the construction is not answered from within and leads to a worsening of the situation at the construction site.
Ipso facto, it's more than fair to place the construction site woes on the person responsible for the construction site.
Like duhhh...
No offense but you have such a loser mentality. If we dont win the cup who cares if we even win a playoff game. I mean who cares if we even make the playoffs then. Who cares if we even win a game the whole season. I mean really think about what you are saying. Because we were not winning the cup, it makes no difference whether we are competitive and have a chance in 2 or 3 playoff series? I mean come on, really??!!
The Trade Deadline was probably not a fail for you IF you feel that getting through it without losing any current assets defines a win. I know many here feel that way.
And on the whole, the season has been a huge success thus far. No doubt!
Putting aside the beggars can't be choosers attitude, we've got to wonder if it could have been a "huger" success? I mean we had two very clear-cut weaknesses that simply haven't been addressed and they're making life extremely hard at a very crucial time.
Tell me this: How successful will this first season end up being if the Isles crumble now and end up MISSING the playoffs after everything they did over the first 55 games?
'Cause one way or the other, the real work starts this summer... starting with 5 of the key reasons we've even had the season we've had.
Agreed. This team was not winning the cup with or without a tweak.
Then again, the suggested tweak was to make sure they'd even make the playoffs, where then anything is possible.
We've got a lot to look forward to this summer, which will be crucial.
I know what we're suspecting. But we won't know what happens until it happens.
I sure know this... By July 5th, I pretty much want to know what this team is going to look like heading into next season, and I want to feel DAMN GOOD about it!
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YearlyLottery
The Pooch Report
Your issue is that you put words into people's mouths and this is a big reason why many posters are not taking you seriously. Yes, @PK Cronin thinks that it is not a big deal if the team goes 0-82-0. I fully support that stance.
Could Lamoriello have given up a third for Brassard? He certainly could have, but he decided not to for reasons we do not know about. He currently has 2 goals and 0 assists in 11 games for the Avalanche. The Islanders also would have needed to add onto that third rounder because Colorado will have a higher pick than them. A 3rd + when the Isles do not have many assets draft pick wise to begin with for a player who may not even play unless there is an injury? There is a good chance Fritz outscores Brassard in 11 games with the NHL club.
What if Lamoriello uses that third round pick and the prospect he would have needed to trade for a top six forward this offseason? Obviously those wouldn't be the main parts of the deal, but it could easily happen. I fail to see what Brassard would be bringing to this team.
The Islanders certainly could have made a move at the deadline, but the difference between Fritz and Brassard will not make a difference in the way this team performs. Just stop.
I guess this is where we'll have to disagree.
I thought there were viable options on the market that would not have cost what you're suggesting, which naturally would not have been of interest.
I did think it was worth a 2nd and future 4th to give it a shot for a few of the upcoming UFAs who would have had a much higher top 6 forward and PP profile than the guys we've currently got vying for that last Top 6 spot and getting PP time.
PK Cronin
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Hardly - even as one of Lou's absolute backers, it must be noted that there were clear weaknesses on this team, they were not addressed from the outside in any way while the opportunity was there, and now placing the onus on the present group of players to somehow figure out or solve those weaknesses from within has backfired.
This development must be added into any objective assessment one makes of Lou's work to date with the Isles.
No-one's calling for his head here.
Any supporter needs to be able to see this situation dryly.
MY TAKE AT THE TIME, since you ask:
I posted quite a bit heading up to the Trade Deadline.
Without losing valuable futures or bringing in guys "just for the sake of not being idle" (i.e. like Snow did with Davidson last spring), I thought Lou would have been able to add a guy with a poorer contract for whom we may not pay much of anything in trade currency, but would have been an attempt at directly addressing both issues (example: Kovalchuk).
Or he could have decided to part with certain players who he doesn't already plan with next season for currency to then pick up someone who could help more than said player (i.e. moving Eberle, then bringing in a Nyquist with the return).
Naturally, none of us can say we know what he was in on or what prices were bandied about.
We can judge by some other deals that a couple of fairly reasonable logical shots at attempting to address those needs were on the market and could have been deemed worth getting for the price they went for.
But I'M not the GM. I can only theorize.
But I and everyone else in Islanderville can see the following:
The GM has a construction site. Everyone can see what's missing on the construction site. No-one sees the GM bringing in a solution for dealing with what's missing on the construction site. The GM claims the solution will have to come from within. What's missing at the construction is not answered from within and leads to a worsening of the situation at the construction site.
Ipso facto, it's more than fair to place the construction site woes on the person responsible for the construction site.
Like duhhh...
As you said, we don't have any idea what the prices were for those pieces that weren't moved, so I don't like to judge things like that. Nyquist is a UFA at the end of the year, so trading Eberle to then trade for Nyquist seems like a lateral move and one that could disrupt the locker room a little bit.
You cannot look at the deadline in a bubble in the way you're doing to fairly judge it. I also don't see the point in making the moves you're suggesting. Lamoriello trades for Nyquist, and it's just for draft picks. I don't think he or Kovalchuk, or anyone else in that range, is turning this team into a legitimate contender. Lamoriello would've just wasted draft picks for no reason when he can use them at the draft to strike a deal for something better.
This is not true. Plenty of trades were discussed, but Lou would not overpay at the expense of long term plans.
Ok, what has been the point in making no moves?
And in reference to Kovalchuk, are we not talking about a proven, if presently declining, player who'd have been a stab at dealing with BOTH weaknesses at hand? Even if it didn't end up helping much, it would be an addition that we could say had merit and showed the boys in the locker room that he understood that they needed a bit of help to carry on with the success they've had this year. Granted, I am figuring that Kovalchuk would not have cost much due to an LAK interest to rid itself of his contract.
When we analyze Lou's work as a GM, how will we analyze it if this team doesn't make the playoffs? And what if it does and then gets swept?
We're still on course in the grand scheme of things. I've never doubted we would be with Lou and Trotz at the helm. We just looked one little bit away from being able to compete mightily and generate even more interest for this team and its direction.
It's not wrong or misguided to see the current situation and count that against Lou when evaluating his work.
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Chardo said:
Ahhh, ok, I see that my stating that "Nothing was attempted..." isn't coming across as I meant it to.
What was meant by that is the following.
<<<
Nothing was attempted - as in no-one was ultimately brought in as an attempt - to alter the course of a problem that the players at hand couldn't address over a 55-game span.
<<<
An analysis of Lou's work as the Islanders GM must include what has transpired.
I just hope so much that the boys don't collapse over these last 9 games.
There was a need and it wasn't addressed when the opportunity was there. The lack of that need is more glaring than ever now.
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Hardly - even as one of Lou's absolute backers, it must be noted that there were clear weaknesses on this team, they were not addressed from the outside in any way while the opportunity was there, and now placing the onus on the present group of players to somehow figure out or solve those weaknesses from within has backfired.
This development must be added into any objective assessment one makes of Lou's work to date with the Isles.
No-one's calling for his head here.
Any supporter needs to be able to see this situation dryly.
MY TAKE AT THE TIME, since you ask:
I posted quite a bit heading up to the Trade Deadline.
Without losing valuable futures or bringing in guys "just for the sake of not being idle" (i.e. like Snow did with Davidson last spring), I thought Lou would have been able to add a guy with a poorer contract for whom we may not pay much of anything in trade currency, but would have been an attempt at directly addressing both issues (example: Kovalchuk).
Or he could have decided to part with certain players who he doesn't already plan with next season for currency to then pick up someone who could help more than said player (i.e. moving Eberle, then bringing in a Nyquist with the return).
Naturally, none of us can say we know what he was in on or what prices were bandied about.
We can judge by some other deals that a couple of fairly reasonable logical shots at attempting to address those needs were on the market and could have been deemed worth getting for the price they went for.
But I'M not the GM. I can only theorize.
But I and everyone else in Islanderville can see the following:
The GM has a construction site. Everyone can see what's missing on the construction site. No-one sees the GM bringing in a solution for dealing with what's missing on the construction site. The GM claims the solution will have to come from within. What's missing at the construction is not answered from within and leads to a worsening of the situation at the construction site.
Ipso facto, it's more than fair to place the construction site woes on the person responsible for the construction site.
Like duhhh...
You're assuming those players were actually obtainable, and assuming that Lou didn't even try for them. I don't believe that to be the case. I believe he did try to fill the holes, but either the players he envisioned were not actually for sale or the price was unacceptable.
You're also assuming that the construction project is supposed to be completed this year. The foundation is being laid. You don't pay top dollar for fixtures when the building is not supposed to be ready for a year.
Doshell Propivo
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PK Cronin
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I'll break down the differences for you.
Making the playoffs is important for this team right now for a couple of reasons:
1) Everyone thought they'd be a bottom team in the league. Bringing in a GM and coach, then making the playoffs after losing a franchise player when the team missed the playoffs the year before says a lot about the current roster and management. Players want to play for coaches that know what they're doing and making the playoffs shows the rest of the NHL that our management is for real.
2) It gives some of the young guys a taste of what playoff hockey is and can be used as a motivating factor moving forward. We all know that playoff hockey is different from the regular season. Barzal and the rest of the young guys know it too, but they don't know how much it's different and in what areas, and how their game translates to playoff hockey. Letting them actually experience it will help them train in the off-season and understand what it takes to be a perennial playoff team.
3) Making the playoffs validates what management has been preaching since they were brought in. It helps create a bigger buy in from the players and further pushes the culture that the team is more important than the individual.
Those are the big things to me as far as making the playoffs.
Now, how much more valuable is it for the team to go from losing in round 1 to losing in round 2? I don't think it really changes all that much in regards to what I wrote above. Maybe it provides a little more experience, and that's always good, but I don't think going from round 1 to round 2 is a drastic difference in approach or what to expect.
---
Given the above, it doesn't make sense for a team that simply doesn't have the talent to win the cup to be spending for rentals. This team was going to make the playoffs and still will. Why waste assets when it isn't going to change much of anything? I don't care if they win 2 games or 3 games in the opening round if they lose the series. It's irrelevant to the larger picture. Then, factor in the fact that rentals historically do not perform very well on their new teams. I'd rather see the assets Lamoriello didn't spend traded at the draft, where it's more likely to trade for a player with term that will address a long term issue instead of a quick fix in a lost season.
In another thread I broke down all of the Cinderella runs people pointed to for being evidence that "anything can happen." All of those teams lost and then were terrible a few years later. They don't ever get back to the finals, how come? It might have something to do with the fact that they wasted assets to just be good enough to have a run that was always going to end with them losing. No team in the modern era has ever won a Stanley Cup after having missed the playoffs the two previous seasons. Stanley Cup winners always have multiple playoff appearances prior to the year they win it. There's a reason for that and we're not the exception to that, especially with the talent on our roster.
I'm not saying that trying to win isn't important or that going 0-82 is the same as getting knocked out in the second round of the playoffs because you ultimately didn't win. Winning and making it to the playoffs has benefits, but no moves Lamoriello could've made would take us from the position we're in right now to being a legitimate cup contender, and that's why it'd have been a waste.
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We don't know if Kovalchuk had any interest in being traded. He has a NMC. On paper he would have been a good fit at likely affordable cost, and maybe Lou did try to get him, but he may very well have said no thanks.
PK Cronin
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We're light on draft picks this year. Not making a move that would marginally improve the team allows for Lamoriello to use those picks at the draft when more teams are willing to make bigger changes to their rosters (players with term and that sort of thing)
I think he could've helped both issues potentially, but he carries a significant risk moving forward with that contract. I could be wrong, but I think I read that Los Angeles wasn't looking to just give him away, so he might not be as cheap as you think.
I think just making the playoffs is enough to give Lamoriello and Trotz and A for this year, based off my expectations at the beginning of the year. Maybe your expectations were different than mine.
I just think it's short-sighted and not really fair, but I know what you're saying. It's fine if you disagree. In the end, we're both happy that Lamoriello and Trotz are here steering the ship.
I mean, ultimately this is coming down to a discussion about whether NYI should have been in on Derek Brassard. Might he have made a difference now that Flip is injured? Probably. Would it get NYI past round 1? Definitely not.
Doshell Propivo
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PK Cronin
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I don't think Brassard would be the difference between doing so and not doing so though.
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