Recalled/Assigned: Lias Andersson - Part III (Loaned to SHL)

Discussion in 'New York Rangers' started by Krams, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Riche16 McCready guitar god

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,200
    Likes Received:
    3,209
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Occupation:
    watching TV
    Location:
    The dreaded MIDDLE
    I have NO idea. To me it seems to be crossing their fingers and hoping.

    The Pens tanked twice and got Lemieux and Crosby and 5 cups.

    What do we have? Hank from the 7th rd and a 5 game loss to LA.

    Wow (Slow clap)

    Im just sick of the “it’s ok, also ran ribbon, participation trophy, mentality”

    ITS NOT OK TO BLOW UR PICKS WHEN U DONT EVER PICK HIGH

    This scouting staff has done exactly that. OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
     
  2. haveandare Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    16,829
    Likes Received:
    4,351
    Trophy Points:
    186
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    New York
    Yeah, and you don't get to choose to have 1OA in years with generational talent. You can't blame this team for not having that luck and lift up other teams for having it. It's not some brilliant strategy those teams had, it's just dumb luck.
     
  3. aufheben #Panarin4Hart

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Messages:
    45,452
    Likes Received:
    14,835
    Trophy Points:
    205
    SB Cash:
    $ 2,064,449
    Location:
    New Jersey
    The Penguins also drafted a goalie #1OA in 2003, and Jordan Staal 1/2 spots above Jonathan Toews and Nick Backstrom. Chicago took Cam Barker #3OA, Jack Skille #7OA, Kykle Beach #11OA. Washington took Karl Alzner #5OA. LA took Thomas Hickey #4OA (also Aki Berg #3OA in 1995 :laugh: ). Tampa Bay took Alexandr Svitov #OA in 2001. Toronto took Luke Schenn #5OA. The Islanders and Oilers are far from champions but I don't think I need to list all their top-5 success stories.

    The Penguins also filed for Chapter 11. Blackhawks games weren't even shown on TV at one point; Their model was being named the Worst Sports Franchise.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  4. Ola HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31,052
    Likes Received:
    6,513
    Trophy Points:
    246
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lawyer
    Location:
    Sweden
    I know, but I respectfully have to add that the biggest AHL stars routinely goes to Europe sooner or later and many fail to cut it.

    There is also a hole bunch of guys who go from the NHL after not getting contracts to the SHL and fail to cut it. And there are of course a hole bunch of guys who goes to the AHL and performs better than in the SHL/Allsvenskan.

    I know the above mentioned narrative is out there, but it’s very impacted by the fact that it’s only looked at from one side.

    And for every Curran you have like a prime Cheechoo who could score 50 in the NHL at the same time he couldn’t win a roster spot in the SHL, McCabe was another one, not a top 6 D in the SHL in his prime.

    All of these “indications” are of course really clouded of all bunch of factors. But I comment on this because if we have a “truth” and a “general opinion”, right now it’s waaaaaay tilted towards overvaluing the AHL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  5. Ola HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31,052
    Likes Received:
    6,513
    Trophy Points:
    246
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lawyer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Ultimately production in the SHL translates a lot better to the NHL than production in the AHL according to the researches. If your point was the case, how do you explain that?

    You must also remember that the AHL teams have horrible conditions to do something with their teams/skill.
    *Huuuuge roster turnover Y2Y.
    *Physical play and a lot of injuries.
    *Besides injuries, call-ups totally without consideration to how they affect the AHL team. Whoops we lost our top 3 guys during a week.
    *They play a ton of games and travel a lot.

    Do you think the above benefit players that thrive in an unorganized environment? Of course it does. The NHL is anything but unorganized right now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  6. Ola HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31,052
    Likes Received:
    6,513
    Trophy Points:
    246
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lawyer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Chris Bourque -- Possibly the top AHL players over the last decade, goes to the KHL and has 2 pts in 11 games before being cut, and then scores 13 pts in 21 games in Switzerland before getting cuts. After that he goes back to the AHL and strings together 82 pts in 70 pts and three other really strong seasons close to or over a PPG.
     
  7. bigdog16 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    2,212
    Likes Received:
    1,535
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    USA
    You can cherry pick a lot of players. Go thru the top 25 scorers in the SHL and see how they fared in the AHL. Its not good
     
    Ola, tbassler and nyr2k2 like this.
  8. nyr2k2 Can't Beat Him

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    37,803
    Likes Received:
    13,859
    Trophy Points:
    202
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,242,446
    Location:
    Maryland
    Awards:
    The SHL is the top professional league in Sweden, and as such obviously plays at a high level. The AHL is much larger and closed to promotion/relegation, so poorly run teams can hang around for much longer than in European leagues. Look no further than our Wolf Pack. And this obviously speaks to your point.

    The flip side, though, is that while I've seen the NHLe scores and don't doubt them, it would seem to me that the sample of SHL players coming to North America and playing in the NHL is skewed by a smaller sample of more highly-skilled players. Many of whom skip the AHL altogether. Whereas here, teams seem to generally look to the CHL and NCAA to find their bottom six grinders, rather than drafting a European player where the wait may be longer and it may be more difficult to determine whether their abilities will translate to North America. Basically what I'm saying is, the caliber of the average Swedish player is probably higher than the average North American player, though fewer are drafted in general, which has an effect on the numbers. And of course, many players from Europe or Russia will simply leave rather than spending three or four years in the AHL trying to scratch out s bottom six role in the NHL. This, in a way, speaks to your point as well.

    But, NHL teams cherry picking the top European talent while simultaneously filling out the rest of the draft board with middling North American prospects actually, to me, reinforces my point. The mix of players in the AHL is probably most representative of an NHL roster structure of all the leagues in the world. The roster composition you see in the AHL is generally very similar to what you'd see in the NHL, and is hardly devoid of skill in any way. And the style of hockey in theory is highly similar to the NHL style, even if, again, it's not quite up to par.

    Cheechoo is an odd example as you're just looking at a 20-game sample during the lockout; long after his game collapsed he then went on to have a hugely effective career in the KHL. McCabe played 10 games during the lockout. I mean are those really good examples? Guys who signed on in Sweden to make a buck waiting for the NHL to resume play?

    I'm not taking the position that the AHL is "better"; to the contrary, I'd place it right behind the SHL, and either parallel to or slightly behind Liiga (although I've been less impressed with Liiga over the past few years).

    The unorganized element is a different story, but that's the name of the game in North American sports and I think it's generally expected by most players. Baseball is even worse. The NBA wants badly to establish an AHL-like farm system. The NFL has tried similar things in the past. I won't try to argue it superior or inferior, it's just how we do it. And with our guys, again, I think it's an expectation. And for most it doesn't seem to be a problem.

    Anyway, not sure where the conversation started here, but my point just boils down to the fact that I believe the AHL is a very good facsimile for the NHL and for most players, particularly North American players, it's a good option. And not just go learn how to grind or forecheck or whatever--plenty of room to develop actual skill down there. It's not a league for every prospect, and the SHL may be better at some elements of player development. Particularly as it pertains to the cherry-picked, highly-skilled players you so often see taken in the top two or three rounds from there. But that's all it is, two different leagues that help different players in different ways. And some guys are equipped to thrive in one environment but not the other.
     
    Ola, Baby Duck Homme and Harbour Dog like this.
  9. nyr2k2 Can't Beat Him

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    37,803
    Likes Received:
    13,859
    Trophy Points:
    202
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,242,446
    Location:
    Maryland
    Awards:
    If I didn't have a million things to do at work, I'd provide you with a dozen or so instances of the inverse of this. :) Maybe this weekend.
     
    Ola likes this.
  10. Fireonk Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,042
    Likes Received:
    653
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    THANK YOU! It is amazing how many mistakes you can get away with when you get gifted top picks for elite talent to cover those up.
     
    Ola and haveandare like this.
  11. Ola HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31,052
    Likes Received:
    6,513
    Trophy Points:
    246
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lawyer
    Location:
    Sweden
    I am not cherry picking players. The big data that we are looking at shows that SHL players fares better in the NHL than AHL players.

    As a norm a little older AHL stars that goes to Europe struggles a lot. I think that is indisputable. Look for yourself.
     
  12. Ola HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31,052
    Likes Received:
    6,513
    Trophy Points:
    246
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lawyer
    Location:
    Sweden
    I look forward to hearing about it! :)

    Seriously though, what is very obvious to me is all the instances of teams signing players from NA with big hopes of them becoming a star, and then after a month or after Christmas the team and the player agrees to terminate the contract and go in different directions. I just think all those examples completely fly under the radar for most fans in NA following European hockey from afar. You check the top of the scoring league a lot more than you check the bottom of the scoring league. Meanwhile we who read the papers etc yearly get articles about "Worst signings of the seasons" and so forth.

    My sole point is just to make clear that there certainly is not some kind of norm that AHLers does better in Europe than Europeans in the AHL. And that is -- despite -- a SHL team, for example, of course only cherry picking AHL players that they think really will fit their game, as opposed to AHL teams taking on players not necessarily aiming to win a Calder Cup but to develop players for the NHL.

    There is certainly a wide information asymmetry for many that closely see how SHL players in the AHL fares, while mostly getting info on how AHL players are faring in the SHL by looking at the top 20 in scoring.
     
  13. bigdog16 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    2,212
    Likes Received:
    1,535
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    USA
    Like 2k2 said, the sample size is what skews those numbers. Picking one player and pointing out his stats to support your opinion is textbook cherry picking. I'll do the same: Top 9 scorers in the SHL, 5 of them played hockey in NA and the other 4 haven't played at all over here. The 5 who did simply couldn't hack it. 1 of them was a good college player, but under PPG and he goes to the SHL the next season and is wildly successful...Fishy
     
    Ola, nyr2k2 and Brooklyn Rangers Fan like this.
  14. romba Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    4,202
    Likes Received:
    1,496
    Trophy Points:
    139
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    With Howden's well-deserved demotion I'm pretty sure LA would have gotten called up had he stayed sane and played in the A.
     
  15. Riche16 McCready guitar god

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    9,200
    Likes Received:
    3,209
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Occupation:
    watching TV
    Location:
    The dreaded MIDDLE
    I completely agree to a point however those teams also put themselves in position to draft high multiple yrs in a row. We had some luck w the draft last yr. But we’ve blown our 1st when we needed to hit w those picks badly, and on multiple occasions. Lias being the most recent.

    Hopefully Kakko and Miller pan out and we can hang our hats on them & of course Chytil. Personally I would’ve loved to have this be the yr of the real bottom out and pick Top5 but we signed Panarin & traded for Trouba. So there goes that option.
    I think we are going to be good but not good enough, again. I hope I’m wrong.
     
    Ola likes this.
  16. UnSandvich Registered User

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2017
    Messages:
    2,129
    Likes Received:
    2,027
    Trophy Points:
    111
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Can you guys take this discussion to the roster building thread or something?
     
    Ola, shackleton, Rangers743 and 2 others like this.
  17. Ola HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    31,052
    Likes Received:
    6,513
    Trophy Points:
    246
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lawyer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Lol, that is what you are doing, I am referring to the big sample data.

    Ask any Canadian or US player where the hockey is better, the SHL or the AHL, and I wonder if I wouldn't be willing to bet my right arm on that at least 95+% would say that the SHL is better. I've followed these leagues very closely for close to 30 years, I've heard these topics discussed by players numerous times and they are all unanimous and say that the hockey in the SHL is much better, with the challenges in the AHL being of a different nature than the play being of a high level.

    And honestly, if anything the numbers should be skewed in favor of the AHL -- being the OFFICIAL farm league of the AHL. To claim that SHL to NHL production carry over stats in relation to the same for the AHL -- when comparing the SHL and the AHL -- is skewed in favor of the SHL is simply ridiculous.

    I know you want to twist this into me being protective of whatever Swedish and what not, but its not. You are drawing really faulty conclusions not having a good picture at all of the actual circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
  18. nyr2k2 Can't Beat Him

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    37,803
    Likes Received:
    13,859
    Trophy Points:
    202
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,242,446
    Location:
    Maryland
    Awards:
    Other than the initial poster to go at you, I don't think anyone is arguing that the AHL is a superior league in overall quality to the SHL. It's not. My issues have been more with your characterization of the style and level of play in the AHL, as well as your suggestion that all the North American guys fail in Sweden, while conveniently ignoring all the North American guys that blow the doors off the SHL (or KHL or Liiga or whatever). It feels like you're arguing that people go too far in their pro-AHL rhetoric and then combat that rhetoric by taking it way too far the opposite direction. IDK why these arguments need to be rehashed so many times. Some ECHL guys can kill it in Europe, some AHL guys fall flat on their face; some SHL guys come over here and make the NHL, some look completely lost and go home after a year. It is what it is.
     
    Inferno and Ola like this.
  19. nyr2k2 Can't Beat Him

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    37,803
    Likes Received:
    13,859
    Trophy Points:
    202
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,242,446
    Location:
    Maryland
    Awards:
    I will drop the conversation because I understand it's technically OT.

    I do think, however, that it is relevant to the conversation of, "Does Andersson playing well in the SHL mean anything?" Since we know he can play well there, and we know playing well there is not a guarantee of NHL success by any means.
     
    Mac n Gs and Ola like this.
  20. darko Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2009
    Messages:
    68,072
    Likes Received:
    6,564
    Trophy Points:
    187
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Majority of our fanbase would jump of the bridge if we were ever as bad as those Pens teams.
     
  21. bigdog16 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    2,212
    Likes Received:
    1,535
    Trophy Points:
    109
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    USA
    Singling out Bourque is cherry picking lol. I have many buddies who play/have played in both leagues. They all say it is a different game between the two and not even comparable. The AHL prepares you for what you are going to expect at the NHL level better than the SHL does. It is seriously a completely different game on the big ice, the strategy is completely different and everything is essentially man on man.

    How many players from the SHL advance to the NHL after the seasons over? Like 5? Compare that to the AHL. That's why your numbers are skewed.
     
    Ola likes this.
  22. Mac n Gs Gorton plz

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    20,578
    Likes Received:
    7,747
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    I'm happy that he's been performing well to start over there, but IMO, this production is to be expected given his previous scoring numbers in the AHL. We already knew he was a good SHL/AHL scorer. His main challenge will be showing that he can handle the faster pace of the NHL, which I still think he can because he is a very smart player.

    I just hope this SHL stint puts him back in a good mental state so that we can try to remedy the relationship over the summer.
     
  23. NYSPORTS back after this

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,036
    Likes Received:
    915
    Trophy Points:
    81
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    it’s a concern IMO. The laundry list off botched picks is alarming. Montoya, Blackburn, Brown, Jessiman, Brendl, Lundmark, etc. Now we have Lias and I have no idea what the reasoning was for drafting G Lindbom 39th overall with Shev already in the system and a plethora of non-goalie prospects on the board.

    Drafting and scouting has not demonstrated it’s an organizational strength.
     
    Ola likes this.
  24. Levitate Registered User

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2004
    Messages:
    27,979
    Likes Received:
    2,943
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000

    Looking at an organizations draft record over decades is goi g to result in a lot of “bad” picks no matter the org
    I think the bigger thing is to point out the times that the rangers obviously wiffed on players by trying to be too smart so to speak. Jessiman and mcilrath are the big culprits here. Everyone knew there were better picks in fore sight and hindsight.
    other picks like brendl and lundnark are more “bad luck” as they were consensus to go where they did but the draft in general turned out to be a dud etc

    I’m less concerned that the rangers blow some picks. Every team does that
    It’s when they’re in a position to take an impact player and they pass to take a long shot that is an issue and one that is mostly confined to the two examples mentioned but that hurt this franchise a whole lot in the long run
     
    Ola and jas like this.
  25. NYSPORTS back after this

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2019
    Messages:
    2,036
    Likes Received:
    915
    Trophy Points:
    81
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    I know but we can’t always say “other org” IMO. What’s Lias? Why Lindbolm? The draft history is pretty deplorable and, imo, it’s more than bad luck historically. We’re excited about this rebuild but with Lias flopping and Kraskov taking off to Europe and back we have to be at least a little concerned IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
    Ola likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"