LIARS

[Tnuoc Alucard]

If the hypothesis is we decided in Feb to trade him and the proof you offer to rebut it is "what if he accepted the offer, we'd be stuck with him", you can't turn around and say the offer would have had a retro-active NMC when somebody points out the obvious, that we'd trade his with a contract, because had we decided that trading him was our play, the offer we made certainly would not have included the retro NMC.

Is it possible that Dorion and company decided to rebuild in Feb, but took until after the deadline to decide that a key part of that rebuild would be trading Karlsson, sure. That's pretty much an admission that Dorion is either negligent in his job, or incompetent, soI suppose it's possible.

YES, that's what I've been saying.


PD has stated that they decided in Feb, to do the rebuild. He clarified that yesterday on TSN 1200, as some people who were calling in ( and some people here) were misquoting him and saying that he decided in Feb to trade EK65.

This is what I've been trying to get across today ........ but some people just say "well he was lying" I suspect to save face, and keep their narrative alive.

So I challenged that (false) logic, and asked then why did they not trade him at the peak of his value to the teams that were interested at the deadline ..... no one has been able to answer that, and prove that the plan was hatched, in Feb, to trade EK65, but to wait until yesterday to pull the trigger, when value (in a trade) was much much lower.

 

[Micklebot]

Well I think EK65 is a pretty smart guy, and ever since Marian Hossa was signed and then traded, even though he wanted to stay in Ottawa ......... lots of impending free agent who've signed extensions have negotiated a retroactive (to their final season) full NMC into the deal, to prevent the same thing from happening.......that he would have done the same (as Price).

EK is not an idiot.

That's great and all, but you asked what if he signs the deal offered as a rebuttal to the premise that we decided to trade him as part of the rebuild in Feb. Given that the team decides what to offer, it doesn't matter if he wants a NMC or not, since his options are sign the deal without a NMC and we can still trade him, or don't sign, and guess what, we still traded him. So, "what if he signed the offer" isn't a valid counter to the premise of the team having already decided to trade him.

The whole premise is starting from the opinion that the offer was never a good faith offer, so it's pretty easy to believe that it lacked a retro NMC and, as reported, the signing bonus structure that star players typically get. The team doesn't get any benefit of the doubt either given their insistence on heavily implying all along that they couldn't negotiate prior to 1 Jul.

Like I said, your version of the story while technically possible, requires that Dorion is completely incompetent, and while that's a good starting point that most around here can get behind, the particular level of incompetence required for it to make sense is probably excessive and doesn't align with what other stakeholders in the story have inferred with their commentary.

 

[Micklebot]

Phone rings in 2010

"Brian it is me, the very large handed big brained Eugene. We need to get Gary Roberts! Very good man. The team is low energy. SAD! GET IT DONE!

"Okay Eugene, we'll do that"

Click

"We're not doing that."

That was Muckler not Murray, but nicely done anyways.

 

[harrisb]

Having no knowledge of how this owner finances, manages & operates his businesses I can only surmise that mistakes have been made which have resulted in EM having money problems. But that also doesn't take away from the fact that Ottawa is a small market team that depends on walk-up sales to survive since it has been unable to increase & sustain the STH base to required levels although that could be the owners fault too. It seems that if the sports teams in this town do not have an ownership group that is well liked than they could lose substantial business & they have, in fact, the CFL football team folded twice due to piss poor ownership.

I agree with what you say but what you say continues to be money problems whether mismanaged or not & most would probably agree it has been mismanaged, at least from our perspective it seems so. EK was offered a contract & he refused to sign it probably because it was a low ball offer, it's one of the reasons he left, he could have signed it & stayed. I'm not blaming him for refusing it but he did turn it down, that's a fact. The other stuff could be true too, that he left more so because of ownership & I don't blame him for that either but I having been saying for a while that I did not think this team could afford a $10 mil or more player in this market of uncertainty.

EK has to know the situation here too, that it's a small market with a small STH base that depends on single ticket sales, that the area lacks substantial corporate investments ectera .... & there is only so much the franchise can afford. Some have been saying this for a while that Ottawa could be the Montreal Expos of the NHL, developing good young players & not be able to afford them with they reach a level of success that should earn them a big pay day.

I really hope people are right & eventually this owner does sell the team, that day can't come soon enough but we should be cautious what we hope for, new ownership may not be any better. Once upon a time we thought EM had saved the team & we all wanted poor Mr. Bryden to sell. That worked for quite a while & Ottawa had a decent team with an owner with deeper pockets & that has all come crashing down around us again. Mismanaged or just plain stupidity this owner has pissed off their fan base & I don't see that getting any better in the near future. I hope he sells.

All true but we know a few things about how ownership happened. Melnyk financed the entire transaction, including the arena and all other assets, he used none of his own money in the deal. He then saddled another $100m+ on to the team since then. He's been banned from ever sitting on a board of governors, SEC fine, divorced, sold his horse farm, had to result to predatory loan conditions and sold his biggest asset (Biovail stock). Biovail was sold at a low point which was half the worth when he bought the team, all the other bad stuff like divorce happened after he halved his asset.. He had several failed startups as well and they burnt cash as they never made it out of the testing phase which is grossly expensive. He believed himself to be someone that could develop new innovative drugs when all he's ever been successful at was cheaply replicating other people's inventions (generics). Unfortunately, that formula simply doesn't work with NHL hockey teams as cloning people is still illegal.

That is exactly what is happening here, he needs a piggy bank and the Sens are it.

 

[Micklebot]

YES, that's what I've been saying.


PD has stated that they decided in Feb, to do the rebuild. He clarified that yesterday on TSN 1200, as some people who were calling in ( and some people here) were misquoting him and saying that he decided in Feb to trade EK65.

This is what I've been trying to get across today ........ but some people just say "well he was lying" I suspect to save face, and keep their narrative alive.

So I challenged that (false) logic, and asked then why did they not trade him at the peak of his value to the teams that were interested at the deadline ..... no one has been able to answer that, and prove that the plan was hatched, in Feb, to trade EK65, but to wait until yesterday to pull the trigger, when value (in a trade) was much much lower.

They are saying he is lying because it's obvious from his actions and the comments from others like Karlsson. There is no logic to start a rebuild in Feb and wait till after Jul 1st to figure out who is going to be identified as the core to build around. Like I said, it's easy to believe Dorion is bad at his job, but this bad? He had to Jul 2018 to figure out if Karlsson was interested in extending, why did he wait till 1 Jul to offer him a contract? There's not logical answer for that other than to try and shift blame for the franchise player leaving away from the team. The whole situation has be one PR stunt after another, but our PR team is so gloriously bad that it's backfired every step of the way.

 

[Alex1234]

YES, that's what I've been saying.


PD has stated that they decided in Feb, to do the rebuild. He clarified that yesterday on TSN 1200, as some people who were calling in ( and some people here) were misquoting him and saying that he decided in Feb to trade EK65.

This is what I've been trying to get across today ........ but some people just say "well he was lying" I suspect to save face, and keep their narrative alive.

So I challenged that (false) logic, and asked then why did they not trade him at the peak of his value to the teams that were interested at the deadline ..... no one has been able to answer that, and prove that the plan was hatched, in Feb, to trade EK65, but to wait until yesterday to pull the trigger, when value (in a trade) was much much lower.

I think they decided to trade him last tuesday
Around 2 pm pacific
Pierre had chicken parmigiana for lunch that day

 

[Marnie]

It was probably unacceptable.
Or they would have traded a signed at rebate Karlsson that every team would have wanted and then the return would have been greater.

The thing I know for sure is front office wanted him gone by training camp

Why

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

It wasn't a correction by Dorion. He screwed up and let it slip that they decided this in February and tried to cover it up by "clarifying". Karlsson himself confirmed he was told in February that he wasn't part of the plan. It was all just for show after that, but they miscalculated that their shenanigans would be believed by the fanbase.

This whole thing has blown up in their faces essentially because of how bad they are at PR, and because the fans just aren't as stupid as they thought.

Just wait. We'll see the same thing with the rest of the UFA's where they do the dance of pretending to be interested in signing them and they will be gone by the deadline. They may even be hoping they have another bad season so its more justifiable to the fans.

 

[Sensung]

It wasn't a correction by Dorion. He screwed up and let it slip that they decided this in February and tried to cover it up by "clarifying". Karlsson himself confirmed he was told in February that he wasn't part of the plan. It was all just for show after that, but they miscalculated that their shenanigans would be believed by the fanbase.

This whole thing has blown up in their faces essentially because of how bad they are at PR, and because the fans just aren't as stupid as they thought.

Just wait. We'll see the same thing with the rest of the UFA's where they do the dance of pretending to be interested in signing them and they will be gone by the deadline. They may even be hoping they have another bad season so its more justifiable to the fans.

Don't worry, everyone (including Count) knows that is exactly what happened. He's just running his usual gaslighting program at the max setting.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Don't worry, everyone (including Count) knows that is exactly what happened. He's just running his usual gaslighting program at the max setting.

No kidding. Those interviews with Dorion yesterday were a friggin train wreck.

I have defended that man at times but yesterday was the last straw. They took this fan base for a ride and it really is as bad as so many warned it was.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Well I think EK65 is a pretty smart guy, and ever since Marian Hossa was signed and then traded, even though he wanted to stay in Ottawa ......... lots of impending free agent who've signed extensions have negotiated a retroactive (to their final season) full NMC into the deal, to prevent the same thing from happening.......that he would have done the same (as Price).

EK is not an idiot.

Link? Source?
Sounds like speculation to me, you don’t know what EK would do.
^
^
^
You vs. every single argument on this board which uses common sense to explain things - yet here you are expecting everyone?someone?anyone? to overlook your hypocrisy. It’s truly amazing.

 

[Wondercarrot]

and with this, Alex1234 is literally the only person who actually got anything right over the last six months.
Got vetted by a mod, posted screenshots of what he said and how he knows - but sure we should go with the count’s anti common sense crusade despite all evidence to the contrary.
I mean it’s beyond ridiculous as this point, the count is a pure parody account.

 

[Wondercarrot]

It was said face to face by management

But whatever

Link/attachment of the previous post didn’t attach. Regardless it was this post and the one previous to it by alex1234 with the screenshots from Feb 18th or 20th

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Dorion admitting yesterday that they decided in February to trade Karlsson, then telling fans in THREE SEPARATE TOWN HALLS as soon as the season ended that they would be making him offers to re-sign here.

That's a DOOZY of a fib.

That one was so brutal... I couldn't believe he incriminated himself that way.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Well, they did offer him an extension, and it was not accepted, so not really a fib.

Either it was not "market value" and they knew it was not going to be accepted, or EK65 had decided it was not "market value" and he rejected it.

Dorion admitted (in February) after meeting with EM, that they had decided to embark on a rebuild ....... not that he was going to trade EK65.

He did admit that he had decided at some point, perhaps after the extension offer, or before, no on knows ...... that EK65 would bring back more in a trade to start their rebuild, I guess more than another player..... he never really elaborated on how he came to choose who to trade.

In any case, it does not appear to be enough of a return for EK65 ....... and the only it might be enough, is that he fully intends to explore Unrestricted Free Agency, and both the Senators and Sharks made this trade knowing this.

If he signs an extension with the Sharks, even with the extra pick(s) if he does, this trade gets even worse.

Dorion specifically said that he and Melnyk made the decision on EK when PD met his master in Barbados in February... the rest is history.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

Not defending anyone, just pointing out the obvious inaccuracies.

Give it up man... you're digging here. Just give it up.

 

[solidprospect]

"Multiple teams phoned but Erik's a franchise player and we felt there was no franchise deal out there that could satisfy to make the best hockey deal," said Ottawa GM Pierre Dorion.
-
"I think Erik wants to be a Senator for life," Dorion said. "We'll see what the next few months bring but if Erik Karlsson is here July 1, we will be making him a contract offer."
-
"The only direction I got from my boss (owner Eugene Melnyk) is make the best hockey deals for the Ottawa Senators," said Dorion. "Today I didn't feel there was good enough hockey deals for this organization."
-
Dorion looked displeased when asked if there could be any ramifications from the trade talk. Dorion said he and Karlsson have a great relationship and no division has taken place.
-
"I'm told about a lot of stuff that is pure, total nonsense," he said. "It's almost to the point of stupidity and I shouldn't even comment on it.

https://www.tsn.ca/veteran-defencem...-with-senators-after-trade-deadline-1.1012011


...

 

[IceBjoern]

Well, they did offer him an extension, and it was not accepted, so not really a fib.

Either it was not "market value" and they knew it was not going to be accepted, or EK65 had decided it was not "market value" and he rejected it.

Dorion admitted (in February) after meeting with EM, that they had decided to embark on a rebuild ....... not that he was going to trade EK65.

He did admit that he had decided at some point, perhaps after the extension offer, or before, no on knows ...... that EK65 would bring back more in a trade to start their rebuild, I guess more than another player..... he never really elaborated on how he came to choose who to trade.

In any case, it does not appear to be enough of a return for EK65 ....... and the only it might be enough, is that he fully intends to explore Unrestricted Free Agency, and both the Senators and Sharks made this trade knowing this.

If he signs an extension with the Sharks, even with the extra pick(s) if he does, this trade gets even worse.

I believe that they did give him an offer and the reason he refused it is because he didn’t get a no-move clause in it. There was always a chance they would trade him even if he did resign and I do believe when Erik says that he wanted to stay, he’s telling the truth.

 

[Boud]

I believe that they did give him an offer and the reason he refused it is because he didn’t get a no-move clause in it. There was always a chance they would trade him even if he did resign and I do believe when Erik says that he wanted to stay, he’s telling the truth.

When Hossa learned that Dorion was offering him a contract he called EK and be like "Bro you gettin' played"

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

He says (at about the 3:56 point) " we had to make this decision at this point in time" AKA yesterday.

​

you can usually tell that someone is full of shit when they use twice as many words as needed to make a point. NEver mind the body language and tone of his voice.

 

[Senscore]

you can usually tell that someone is full of **** when they use twice as many words as needed to make a point. NEver mind the body language and tone of his voice.

If you look closely you can see his soul leaving his body.

 

[Ray Kinsella]

If you look closely you can see his soul leaving his body.

LOL

 

[Gil Gunderson]

If you look closely you can see his soul leaving his body.

That already happened at his secret meeting in Barbados in February.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

That already happened at his secret meeting in Barbados in February.

Nah, he sold it when he signed on as GM under Melnyk.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Dorion specifically said that he and Melnyk made the decision on EK when PD met his master in Barbados in February... the rest is history.

That is not what he said in his press conference, and later on TSN 1200.

In any case, it's history, and we all can whine and cry about the timeline all we want ....... EK65 is gone, and that should never have happened.