Lefebvre Discussion

[jfm133]

Leblanc always had Danault like upside. He never was gonna be a 1st line C but there was offense in him. Hes a really smart player and a jack of all trades. One of the best board players ive seen. He was mismanaged.

Before giving Danault as an example, some should remember what they were saying about him when he came here from Chicago. The funny thing is the fact that Danault blossomed under terrible Mike. Most of the development is on the player.

 

[jfm133]

It's very easy for a coach to destroy a player in these conditions.

What are you talking about? Collberg was destroyed at Frolunda? No he was a draft bust like Leblanc.

 

[jfm133]

yeah I think Sly's lack of development has been WAY overstated. Like you said. It's not like Leblanc or Tinordi have blossomed elswhere. NB always had concerns. LL lacked the off season training imo. He just never got bigger. There's a bit of a case that Tinordi was mishandled but again he's done nothing elsewhere.

Most of the time he's been here he's had nothing to work with. I'm not a Sly fan but I just haven't found enough real data that he's 'ruining' players. Very few legit prospects to work with.

Sly came in in 2012 after four awful draft years with only seven top-90 picks from 2008 to 2011. We got five top-90 only this year. Some really don't want to look at the reality.

 

[jaffy27]

That fits your narrative, right?

Leblanc never was a can't miss first line prospect.

MacKenzie was the highest on him, and he barely said he was "intriguing", and that he can surprise by becoming better than his rank. That's it.

And right after that, Leblanc leaved US to play in the LHJMQ where he was barely a ppg player, and where people started to change their view about him...

Guess I should've used the in my previous post

Btw.....he had compared him to Mike Richards

 

[Top Corner2]

QUESTION:

If Hudon, Big Mac & DLR become NHL full timers will people change their opinion of Sly?

How about 2 or 3?

 

[montreal]

I think LeBlanc had other issues, such as physically he didn't look like he worked out at all, but I recall that someone , MB ?, not sure, that he would only ever be a 3rd or 4th line center. As I remember it, LeBlanc had a very bad reaction to that nugget. Again, I just don't see how telling a guy something like that is overly helpful even if well intended. Maybe telling him the first thing is to play sound defense and then his offensive output will dictate where in the line up he plays. So you do it in a constructive way, you need to do this, without bursting a kids bubble entirely.

Leblanc had a major ankle injury but he didn't get along with Lefebvre and was in his doghouse the entire time. Hamilton had the worst PP in the league but he took Leblanc and Holland off the PP that year and replaced them with Maxime Macenauer and Justin Courtnall. Leblanc had been one of Hamilton's best players and then under Lefebvre he takes him off the top line and off the PP. Doesn't sound like a great way to develop talent imo.

I really don't think that Lefebvre ruined a glorious career for Leblanc. Injury had a lot to do with it.

yes injury did impact him, his skating/speed were never great but that high ankle sprain didn't help matters. He looked night and day from the previous year when he was on pace for 20 pts in the NHL as a 20 year old.

Not true, back in his jr. days Joel Bouchard was already talking that Leblanc wasnt a guy you could rely on to lead the offense.. And when he played for Team Canada jr., his puck skills were among the worst on the team, all he was good at was along the boards.. Leblanc was destined to bust, never reached more than 28 pts in the AHL, no pts in the KHL..

People are blaming Lefebvre for anything but could you name me 1 player that blossomed elsewhere after being "mishandled" by Lefebvre? By luck we traded Collberg on time, cause the fans would go crazy after Lefebvre if he had busted under his tenure.. The reality is that Lefebvre hasnt had the chance to work with high quality prospects yet.. Still guys like Hudon, Andrighetto (both late round picks) have developped rather well under Lefebvre while a guy like Scherbak has alot of training to do by his own.. I think the running joke that our prospects should stay away from Lefebvre is getting cheesy..

I believe he finished 4th in scoring for Team Canada that year despite them moving him up and down the lineup. The reason why he never had more then 28 pts in the AHL is because in his rookie year in Hamilton while playing under Clement Jodoin, he had 22 pts in 31 games but got called up and had 10 in half a season with the Habs. He was on pace for 54 pts that year (.71 ppg)

As someone that watched him play in the USHL at 17, at Havard at 18, the Q/WJC's, and just about all his games in Hamilton & Habs, for the life of me I just don't get how people could have watched him then where things weren't outstanding but this was a kid that was always leading his team in scoring or ppg every single year. He was easily our best rookie in the AHL at 20 and was easily one of the best players on the team. How on earth do so many posters over the years since always gloss over this? The kid looked fine. Yes he had holes in his game, in no way am I saying he was a lock to be an NHLer. What I am saying is that he was doing very well in Hamilton as a rookie under Jodoin. People can believe what they want, I saw it.

Now granted he got injured the next year, but he was never the same under Lefebvre. Yes he needed to get much stronger and didn't, yes he needed to fill out his frame and didn't, yes his skating/speed needed to improve. That said he was getting it done in the AHL at 20. Under Lefebvre his game was night and day to what he looked like under Jodoin. Maybe it was the injury, maybe other factors, but while I have said so many times over the years that everyone from management, both coaching staffs, Timmins and Leblanc all share blame on him busting, there's no way I can get behind Lefebvre not being held to his share of the blame.

I don't buy the notion that players can be ruined by coaches. Unless they have some overly dominant parent like a Lavar Ball or something, no individual is going to ruin them. I think it's just an excuse made when folks are wrong about a guy.

Do you mind me asking what was the highest level of hockey you played? Cause I very much disagree as hockey is very much a mental sport that confidence is a massive part of. Coaching is key to development imo. Maybe ruined isn't the right word, but a good coach can do wonders for bringing out the best in players. A bad coach won't imo.

People should stop the superlatives about Lefebvre. I'm not impress by him, like many, but the fact is we don't know nothing.

Bergevin is surrounded by men like Dudley, Ramage, Lapointe, Timmins, Carriere, Julien, Waite... If it was sooOOooo clear Lefebvre was that bad, I think most of those men would have said to Bergevin to not re-sign the guy.

But true, we all know better around here, right?

I am one of the main posters on this board that has questioned/bashed Lefebvre, though mainly do to me being a huge fan of our AHL team that every year I pay way too money for crappy streams just to see 80/90% of their games. (i've been to 6 or 7 AHL rinks over the years as well). Despite all that I have repeatedly said that we just don't know. We aren't in the room, we don't know what management is telling Lefebvre to do. Did management tell him to play Mayer over Tok when Mayer looked like **** most nights letting in 3 or 4 goals per game (other then one hot streak) while Tok was one of their best players. We just don't know. Was he forced to mover Scherbak to center after just getting back from injury? There was one time during DLR's rookie year that he still hadn't been getting much time and the Dogs played like **** that night. MB was in attendance and it was said that he was so mad that he went right down to the lockeroom after the game and spoke to the players. The next game DLR was moved up to the top 6 and he started putting up some points.

That was more rumor then fact if memory serves but again we just don't know what goes on. For me all I can do is watch the games. The guy drives me crazy at times with his moves. When he would bench Mac Bennett while he was playing well enough and play Joe Finley, the whole Mayer vs Tok, how often he would take skilled players off the PP and replace them with guys like Stortini, Macenauer, etc... Or how he put Scherbak with Audette for so much of the season when they are the 2 youngest players on the team and struggle in their own end, or moving Scherbak all over the lineup. etc... Just a lot of odd decisions but again I don't know if they come from him, management or a little of both as I assume he has some room to do his job.

That fits your narrative, right?

Leblanc never was a can't miss first line prospect.

MacKenzie was the highest on him, and he barely said he was "intriguing", and that he can surprise by becoming better than his rank. That's it.

And right after that, Leblanc leaved US to play in the LHJMQ where he was barely a ppg player, and where people started to change their view about him...

Leblanc led his team in ppg in the Q.

 

[jfm133]

QUESTION:

If Hudon, Big Mac & DLR become NHL full timers will people change their opinion of Sly?

How about 2 or 3?

That's the good question. With a two years contract, Sly will have time to be judge fairly. If none of the guy above or Scherbak, Lernout or Lindgren make it will be a clear failure. Even one or two players would not be enough. At the same time, Julien will need to give them a real chance at some point and for Hudon and DeLaRose, the time is next year.

 

[montreal]

QUESTION:

If Hudon, Big Mac & DLR become NHL full timers will people change their opinion of Sly?

How about 2 or 3?

no and no. One guy that I really would give him credit for is Pateryn, he was solid in the NCAA but he made good improvements in the AHL under Lefebvre. It remains to be seen if he did enough to become a full time NHLer or not. McCarron it depends on what he turns into in the NHL. The kid's first month in the AHL he had 20 pts in 21 games, he never looked as good again. If he develops a decent offensive game in the NHL, then I will change my opinion of Lefebvre but not holding my breath on that one. Hudon came to the AHL as a highly skilled and very smart player, credit will go to Lefebvre if he makes the NHL full time for sure but if Hudon makes it, it's due to his skill and IQ which he had before Lefebvre.

My thing is I believe we have one of the best scouts in the NHL, who has proven in the past he can find NHL talent. Under Lefebvre we haven't been able to develop NHL talent from our AHL team. Maybe Ghetto, Pateryn, McCarron, Hudon, DLR will make it. Right now he's really only got Beaulieu to his credit imo. Whereas Timmins has Lehkonen, Galchenyuk, Price, Subban, Halak, McDonagh, Condon, etc...

so to me when you have one of the best scouts in the NHL, you should be getting at some NHL talent developed by our farm system and to date it's not there. Granted there are factors, weak draft classes, less draft picks, picking later in the draft. And it's not all on Lefebvre and his staff. Timmins and his staff have made their share of mistakes, the NHL coaching staff has made their share of mistakes, management has called up too many players too soon and the players themselves didn't improve on the areas they needed to.

 

[Goldenhands]

I believe he finished 4th in scoring for Team Canada that year despite them moving him up and down the lineup. The reason why he never had more then 28 pts in the AHL is because in his rookie year in Hamilton while playing under Clement Jodoin, he had 22 pts in 31 games but got called up and had 10 in half a season with the Habs. He was on pace for 54 pts that year (.71 ppg)

As someone that watched him play in the USHL at 17, at Havard at 18, the Q/WJC's, and just about all his games in Hamilton & Habs, for the life of me I just don't get how people could have watched him then where things weren't outstanding but this was a kid that was always leading his team in scoring or ppg every single year. He was easily our best rookie in the AHL at 20 and was easily one of the best players on the team. How on earth do so many posters over the years since always gloss over this? The kid looked fine. Yes he had holes in his game, in no way am I saying he was a lock to be an NHLer. What I am saying is that he was doing very well in Hamilton as a rookie under Jodoin. People can believe what they want, I saw it.

.

How Is this supposed to impress me??? How many first round busts have led their junior or university teams in scoring or PPG in the history?? ALOT..

Also, its not like he was totally dominant statistically talking,*playing for Harvard, he only had 1 more point than Biega and 2 more than Killorn.. Playing for MTL juniors, he only had a 1,14 ppg rate while guys like Rose and Parkes had 0.97 and 1,03 ppg rate.. If you take a look at the scoring leaders that year, you have guys like Huberdeau, Couturier and Palat, all 2 years younger than Leblanc with respectively a 1,57 1,66 and 1.57 ppg rate.. Even a guy like Jonathan Marchesseault, who has never been drafted, produced way more than Leblanc despite being the same age (1,40ppg rate).. THIS impresses me ALOT!!

As for being the best rookie on the farm or amongs the best players on the team at his first Pro season, that doesnt impress me much either considering guys like Willsie Engqvist were the best offensive fowards on the team lol.

As I said, I was excited to watch Leblanc at the WJC but came pretty unimpressed with his puck skills while not that solid either defensively.. Only his boards work was clearly above average..

 

[DAChampion]

How Is this supposed to impress me??? How many first round busts have led their junior or university teams in scoring or PPG in the history?? ALOT..

Also, its not like he was totally dominant statistically talking,*playing for Harvard, he only had 1 more point than Biega and 2 more than Killorn.. Playing for MTL juniors, he only had a 1,14 ppg rate while guys like Rose and Parkes had 0.97 and 1,03 ppg rate.. If you take a look at the scoring leaders that year, you have guys like Huberdeau, Couturier and Palat, all 2 years younger than Leblanc with respectively a 1,57 1,66 and 1.57 ppg rate.. Even a guy like Jonathan Marchesseault, who has never been drafted, produced way more than Leblanc despite being the same age (1,40ppg rate).. THIS impresses me ALOT!!

As for being the best rookie on the farm or amongs the best players on the team at his first Pro season, that doesnt impress me much either considering guys like Willsie Engqvist were the best offensive fowards on the team lol.

As I said, I was excited to watch Leblanc at the WJC but came pretty unimpressed with his puck skills while not that solid either defensively.. Only his boards work was clearly above average..

Isn't it impressive that Leblanc outproduced Killorn?

Anyway we can retroactively nitpick his potential all we want but the fact is that Lefebvre should have given him an honest chance. Instead Lefebvre chose to develop Zack Stortini which led nowhere and was pointless.

It's not as though that ice time went yo someone good, it didn't. It went to Stortini, Hagel, etc.

And yes it's impossible for a player to develop properly without ice time. It doesn't happen.

 

[Goldenhands]

Isn't it impressive that Leblanc outproduced Killorn?

Anyway we can retroactively nitpick his potential all we want but the fact is that Lefebvre should have given him an honest chance. Instead Lefebvre chose to develop Zack Stortini which led nowhere and was pointless.

It's not as though that ice time went yo someone good, it didn't. It went to Stortini, Hagel, etc.

And yes it's impossible for a player to develop properly without ice time. It doesn't happen.

Lefebvre tried to work on his skating but Leblanc was crying to his girlfriend about the methods used.. It gives you a good idea what the kid was made of..

 

[Runner77]

QUESTION:

If Hudon, Big Mac & DLR become NHL full timers will people change their opinion of Sly?

How about 2 or 3?

How about Lefebvre gets a 3 year extension tacked on to the one he just got and then we can really see if he can do something with Poehling and we can forget all the years leading up to that. Sounds fair? Bergevin says yes.

 

[durojean]

Guy Boucher said something really interesting but really true to Desharnais when he was with hamilton.

He said : stop focusing too much on your defence... You won't make the nhl on your weaknesses.

Harness your strenght and make it what is making a difference between you and the rest.

I think the approach to Lefebvre development is wrong because he s working on player weakness.

By doing that he makes a lot of average player not good enough. They become a little better on their weaknesses but by the same time lose a little bit of their strenght because their focus is not on them.

Exemple is Sherbak. The guy is an offensive dynamo but is poor defensively. Put him in places whete he ll exploit his offense the defensive side of the game can become ok but he'll never be a plekanec.

 

[Top Corner2]

2 things about Leblanc.

- His strength and conditioning did not develop as hoped.

- His will to be an NHLer was questioned (which now makes sense with the knowledge that this guy flat out quit hockey....)

I really think looking at the coach and his skillset is just not telling the full story. Something was up with this guy. Either he couldn't handle the pressure, or got sick of playing the game, or who knows....

But definitely there was something else going on here. As Montreal alludes to, this guy was a very good junior player. I felt like all he had to do was work on his lower body strength and he would make it no problem (as a 3rd liner or better). But he never got stronger and was always too easy to knock off the puck.

He was eventually traded, but the results were exactly the same and now he quit hockey. That's pretty drastic.

My feeling is that this guy was not 110%++ dedicated, and his parents were not either. And to be honest, I don't blame him. Being a pro is a huge commitment and you really need to give up on so many other things you might want to do with your life.

Anyways, that's my take. So who's fault is it? Timmins for not judging character? Sly for next getting him more motivated? Bergy for not working with him and his family? Or maybe it just was a human story that fans have a hard time believing are possible.

 

[Lshap]

QUESTION:

If Hudon, Big Mac & DLR become NHL full timers will people change their opinion of Sly?

How about 2 or 3?

How can people NOT change their opinion if circumstances change? Yes, of course, if those players zoom out of the gate and succeed in the NHL then I'll be forced to retire my "LeZero" nickname and admit the guy did a good job.

But right now, Lefevbre has a big fat "0" on his list of players he's coached who've reached their ceiling or exceeded expectations in the NHL.

 

[Tighthead]

I think both Leblanc and Tinordi would have benefitted from sticking with the NCAA route. In Tinordi's case, I think it was his decision. I believe the Habs encouraged it with Leblanc.

I'm not saying they wouldn't have still busted out. I think a slower trajectory suited the players better, and Leblanc may have enjoyed the academic experience as well. I'm not sure his mindset was ready for the basically full time hockey approach of Major Junior.

This isn't a knock on Lefebvre, nor to absolve the players, but it seemed like the development decisions on these players were not part of an overall plan. The team seemed to rush them a little, and then have little patience for growing pains.

I don't believe it had any bearing on his development, but watching Tinordi get knocked out by some AHL lifer was a painful moment. Kind of a worst case scenario for your first rounder.

 

[LaP]

Before giving Danault as an example, some should remember what they were saying about him when he came here from Chicago. The funny thing is the fact that Danault blossomed under terrible Mike. Most of the development is on the player.

Danault has yet to blossom really. He has done 40 points playing first line minutes for half the season with one of the best duo of wingers in the whole league. Potential is there but 40 points in this situation is not enough there's still work to be done with his offensive game.

Many players in this league would do 40 points with the same usage. Many 3rd line players would do it.

 

[dcyhabs]

I will worry about Lefebvre the day prospects he failed to develop into NHLer blossom in other organisations.. As of now, Leblanc tried his luck on 4 other teams after leaving and it didnt work.. Dietz, Tinordi and some others looks like busts as well..

On another side, Hudon developed pretty well under Lefebvre, a 5th round pick that never really been dominant offensively in junior, he had a nice progression under Lefebvre.. Same with Andrighetto, there isnt much more Lefebvre could do about this kid.. Lernout's development is going well..

At the end, Lefebvre has basically no quality prospects to work with.

I like Hudon but I'm not sure how you can say he developed under SL. He hit the league, went on a hot streak, and has produced consistently since. In 3 years he should be showing marked improvement if the dev team is good.

I'm not sure anyone hit the Montreal AHL dev system and showed serious improvement. Some of the D like Dietz and Pateryn did OK, but they haven't stuck in the NHL yet.

Getting McCarron and Tinordi to drop the gloves, and get KOed by journeymen AHLers, while fighting is dropping out of the NHL doesn't look like a genius move. Nor does playing marginal career AHLers on the top lines.

Tinordi, McCarron, and Hudon looked really good in their first year. JDLR, Tinordi, and Leblanc looked good against NHLers in their first year in the system. Do any of them really look better now? maybe JDLR?

Did any non-goalie take a significant step forward in the last 5 years?

 

[Runner77]

I like Hudon but I'm not sure how you can say he developed under SL. He hit the league, went on a hot streak, and has produced consistently since. In 3 years he should be showing marked improvement if the dev team is good.

I'm not sure anyone hit the Montreal AHL dev system and showed serious improvement. Some of the D like Dietz and Pateryn did OK, but they haven't stuck in the NHL yet.

Getting McCarron and Tinordi to drop the gloves, and get KOed by journeymen AHLers, while fighting is dropping out of the NHL doesn't look like a genius move. Nor does playing marginal career AHLers on the top lines.

Tinordi, McCarron, and Hudon looked really good in their first year. JDLR, Tinordi, and Leblanc looked good against NHLers in their first year in the system. Do any of them really look better now? maybe JDLR?

Did any non-goalie take a significant step forward in the last 5 years?

About Hudon, never got a real chance, especially in the disastrous season that became meaningless, when Price was badly injured. I'm not a fan of rushing 21-year olds, but it was a revolving door at the time and everyone seemed to be getting an audition. I remember that Hudon's ended rather abruptly.

All we've been hearing about Hudon is "he's got a high IQ but ... his skating ...". I was hoping they'd give them more of an opportunity to play center. Now, too late. He either makes the Habs or they risk losing him on the wire if they try to send him down -- which probably means they'll end up trading him if it comes to that.

 

[scrubadam]

no and no. One guy that I really would give him credit for is Pateryn, he was solid in the NCAA but he made good improvements in the AHL under Lefebvre. It remains to be seen if he did enough to become a full time NHLer or not. McCarron it depends on what he turns into in the NHL. The kid's first month in the AHL he had 20 pts in 21 games, he never looked as good again. If he develops a decent offensive game in the NHL, then I will change my opinion of Lefebvre but not holding my breath on that one. Hudon came to the AHL as a highly skilled and very smart player, credit will go to Lefebvre if he makes the NHL full time for sure but if Hudon makes it, it's due to his skill and IQ which he had before Lefebvre.

My thing is I believe we have one of the best scouts in the NHL, who has proven in the past he can find NHL talent. Under Lefebvre we haven't been able to develop NHL talent from our AHL team. Maybe Ghetto, Pateryn, McCarron, Hudon, DLR will make it. Right now he's really only got Beaulieu to his credit imo. Whereas Timmins has Lehkonen, Galchenyuk, Price, Subban, Halak, McDonagh, Condon, etc...

so to me when you have one of the best scouts in the NHL, you should be getting at some NHL talent developed by our farm system and to date it's not there. Granted there are factors, weak draft classes, less draft picks, picking later in the draft. And it's not all on Lefebvre and his staff. Timmins and his staff have made their share of mistakes, the NHL coaching staff has made their share of mistakes, management has called up too many players too soon and the players themselves didn't improve on the areas they needed to.

What I find interesting is Timmins gets credit for the players that become NHLers, but the ones that bust thats on development ??

Development didn't play a part in those players becoming good? Boucher didn't influence PK? Or what about Lek's coaches in Europe and MT in the NHL? And what about all the busts Timmins chose ?

If development ruins a player, then shouldn't it make the player. Why is development only a negative factor but not a positive factor when players Timmins drafted do well in the NHL?

If all the busts are on Sly then all the ones who make it are on the coaching staff AHL/NHL/NCAA/CHL etc...

 

[scrubadam]

what will be interesting is if the Rocket make the playoffs again.

I think with the signings MB made and Lindgren coming back they will have a good shot.

So will we back to chicken or the egg? The improved roster is the reason or will Sly magically have become a good coach?

 

[montreal]

How Is this supposed to impress me??? How many first round busts have led their junior or university teams in scoring or PPG in the history?? ALOT..

Also, its not like he was totally dominant statistically talking,*playing for Harvard, he only had 1 more point than Biega and 2 more than Killorn.. Playing for MTL juniors, he only had a 1,14 ppg rate while guys like Rose and Parkes had 0.97 and 1,03 ppg rate.. If you take a look at the scoring leaders that year, you have guys like Huberdeau, Couturier and Palat, all 2 years younger than Leblanc with respectively a 1,57 1,66 and 1.57 ppg rate.. Even a guy like Jonathan Marchesseault, who has never been drafted, produced way more than Leblanc despite being the same age (1,40ppg rate).. THIS impresses me ALOT!!

As for being the best rookie on the farm or amongs the best players on the team at his first Pro season, that doesnt impress me much either considering guys like Willsie Engqvist were the best offensive fowards on the team lol.

As I said, I was excited to watch Leblanc at the WJC but came pretty unimpressed with his puck skills while not that solid either defensively.. Only his boards work was clearly above average..

It's not written to impress you, but try looking at context. Leblanc played on a low scoring team in the Q, if you are a playmaker and guys don't score much, it's hard to rack up the points. At Havard only 2 players were younger then Leblanc, Danny Biega and David Valek. Together they had half the points of Leblanc. It's not the 23 pts in 31 games that's impressive, it's him leading his team in scoring as a 18 year old Freshman. That's not something you see happen that often.

You aren't impressed with Leblanc being one of our best players in Hamilton on a bad team but did you ever stop and think what picture this is painting? Stop looking at numbers for a second and consider this. Leblanc at 17 to 20, everything was going fine in the sense that he was doing what you want to see from a prospect. He led every team in scoring or ppg (USHL at 17, led team in scoring, NCAA at 18, led team in scoring, in the Q at 19, lead team in ppg, 20 year in the AHL he was doing great so then he got called up to the NHL and produced.

So everything was going as planned, Leblanc was producing everywhere and did well for Team Canda. But then he plays for Lefebvre after a major injury and he is a shell of himself. I'm not trying to say Leblanc would not have busted, or that it's all Lefebvre's fault. What i'm saying is that things were going well for Leblanc, and then when he played for Lefebvre his game went downhill extremely quick and never bounced back. There's a lot of blame to go around, but for me Lefebvre has his share of it. I just don't get how several posters over the years rip on Leblanc but just shrug off the fact that he was doing well everywhere he played and then boom it went to hell.

When you have one of the better scouts in the NHL, and you have a rookie head coach in the AHL and then ALL of your 1st round picks from said top scout that play under his first time head coach all struggle to progress and people think there's nothing to be concerned with? It just sounds crazy to me.

Lefebvre tried to work on his skating but Leblanc was crying to his girlfriend about the methods used.. It gives you a good idea what the kid was made of..

Do you have a link that says Lefebvre tried to work on his skating? Also how do you know he was crying to his girlfriend? I bet you don't have a clue what the kid is made of.

How can people NOT change their opinion if circumstances change? Yes, of course, if those players zoom out of the gate and succeed in the NHL then I'll be forced to retire my "LeZero" nickname and admit the guy did a good job.

But right now, Lefevbre has a big fat "0" on his list of players he's coached who've reached their ceiling or exceeded expectations in the NHL.

For me I wouldn't be too impressed if he had 1 or 2 players turn into solid NHLers since that's his job and has been for the past 5 years with almost nothing to show for it. Things were going fine with our development before Lefebvre, granted we had better drafts, more picks and higher picks but 1 player in 5 years is just terrible. 3 players in 6 years just isn't anywhere near good enough. Now if he gets to say 5 or 6 in 6 years that's a good place to start.

I think both Leblanc and Tinordi would have benefitted from sticking with the NCAA route. In Tinordi's case, I think it was his decision. I believe the Habs encouraged it with Leblanc.

I'm not saying they wouldn't have still busted out. I think a slower trajectory suited the players better, and Leblanc may have enjoyed the academic experience as well. I'm not sure his mindset was ready for the basically full time hockey approach of Major Junior.

This isn't a knock on Lefebvre, nor to absolve the players, but it seemed like the development decisions on these players were not part of an overall plan. The team seemed to rush them a little, and then have little patience for growing pains.

I don't believe it had any bearing on his development, but watching Tinordi get knocked out by some AHL lifer was a painful moment. Kind of a worst case scenario for your first rounder.

I think it would have helped Tinordi if he had been born 5-10 years earlier as he just isn't a fit in today's NHL. But agreed on seeing him get beat down in the AHL, it was tough to watch.

What I find interesting is Timmins gets credit for the players that become NHLers, but the ones that bust thats on development ??

Development didn't play a part in those players becoming good? Boucher didn't influence PK? Or what about Lek's coaches in Europe and MT in the NHL? And what about all the busts Timmins chose ?

If development ruins a player, then shouldn't it make the player. Why is development only a negative factor but not a positive factor when players Timmins drafted do well in the NHL?

If all the busts are on Sly then all the ones who make it are on the coaching staff AHL/NHL/NCAA/CHL etc...

Not true at all. Collberg, Kristo, Fischer, the Kostitsyn's, Ben Maxwell, they are all on Timmins and his staff along with the players themselves. I have said over and over and over and over that the blame is not all on one person. Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, over and over I have said that the blame is shared by all invovled. Management called them up too soon, so they shoulder the blame. Both the NHL and AHL coaching staffs should have done a better job, they share the blame. The scouting staff should have done a better job, Leblanc's skating and frame were an issue from day one, Beaulieu with his poor decisions, etc.. and then the players themselves have the share in the blame.

Now there's also injuries that you can't predict but can have a very big impact. Lats, Chipchura, Leblanc, Thrower, Bozon, Nygren, Crisp. It's not an excuse, just that injuries happen and sometimes it can hamper their development. That's not to say that they wouldn't have busted here if not for those injuries, just that it's hard to say what impact they had on their development. Then there's trades, it's not Timmins fault that they traded McDonagh, Subban, Beaulieu, Halak, etc...

Now development imo is a big part to draft success. Timmins owes some of his success to Guy Boucher (although it was Timmins who suggested to bring Boucher to the AHL) and the others that coached our AHL teams like the Randy's, Doug Jarvis, Don Lever, etc....

I look at it this way. What was the players strength and weaknesses before we drafted them and then once they were in our development system in the AHL? So if someone like Hudon say, you see how he's skilled and smart but plays the same since his junior days, then I don't see Lefebvre getting a lot of credit but if he makes it then I would credit Timmins more for drafting him. But on the other hand, I look at Pateryn, he was partnered with Mac Bennett but it was Bennett who was the better player in the NCAA, in the AHL Pateryn really improved his game under Lefebvre. So if he becomes a regular in the NHL, then I would give more credit to Lefebvre then I would Timmins who didn't draft him but there's no way on earth he wasn't involved since it was days after the leafs drafted him out of the USHL, I mean an American defensemen from the USHL, that was Timmins bread and butter!

 

[NobleSix]

QUESTION:

If Hudon, Big Mac & DLR become NHL full timers will people change their opinion of Sly?

How about 2 or 3?

No.

Sly just is not a good coach. Right now it looks like McCarron and DLR will both be bottom 6 players, and Hudon has a good shot at being a top 9 player.

Gotta do better than that in 5 years to change the perception.

 

[ECWHSWI]

That's the good question. With a two years contract, Sly will have time to be judge fairly. If none of the guy above or Scherbak, Lernout or Lindgren make it will be a clear failure. Even one or two players would not be enough. At the same time, Julien will need to give them a real chance at some point and for Hudon and DeLaRose, the time is next year.

huh what ?? you saying this cause huh, it would be unfair to judge him after FIVE seasons or something ??

 

[Goldenhands]

Do you have a link that says Lefebvre tried to work on his skating? Also how do you know he was crying to his girlfriend? I bet you don't have a clue what the kid is made of.

It was well known that Aleksandra Worniak publicly criticized the Habs org. a couple of times for mishandling his boyfriend and one of those critics was about the methods used to improve his skating.. Apparently they were using elastics to increase the resistence or something like that and she tweeted that it was inhumain pratics..

Apparently we have a very different vision of Leblanc in time... I named you 4-5 guys who outproduced Leblanc big time despite being 2 years yonger or unddrafted that are playing in the NHL, Leblanc's producion while playing for the Juniors was average, that kind of offensive stats in juniors doesnt usually look good as a potential top 6.. In fact the best comparison for Leblanc would be Danault.. they basically have the same offensive stats at their last junior season and were known first and foremost for their solid 2-way play and compete level more than for the skills.. Now why is Danault in hte NHL and Leblanc has busted? Speed and determination...