1909
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Lefebvre Discussion
- Thread starter Whitesnake
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Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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Because every single one of those players were pencilled to go in the 1st round by MOST SINGLE SCOUTING SERVICE on the planet? Fischer that's something else. He was a HM on McKenzie list. But Tinordi and Leblanc most definately were. Mind you...I absolutely did NOT agree with that. Not with Tinordi. Leblanc...that's another story, I thought he'd be better than what he showed. Leblanc was pencilled to go 1st round by everybody.
Anyway, that does not matter. There are TONS of players pencilled to go in the 1st round by every scouting service and they might still be bad picks. Sometimes, a player just make consensus and he shouldn't....but that's how he gets on everybody's list. And yet....he might still be a bad pick. My point is that...unless you make a clear stupidity like Hickey at #4, or Crisp in the 3rd, you never can be too certain whether it's a bad pick or a bad development.
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1909
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So how come, Tinordi, Leblanc, Thomas, Dietz, Ellis, and many many others who were finally traded to other organisations, never panned out with heir new club, under "better" coaching ? How come these guys are just what they are ?
If they are so talented, how come they did not rebound ?
Was Collberg really a top second round pick ?
Whitesnake
If you rebuild, they will come.
- Jan 5, 2003
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Because some "might" be bad picks". Some others we actually might have screwed their development. Some of them might just be about being picked in the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th roudn when at that point, they were guesses to begin with....and stayed as a guess. Yeah, for a lot of people, Collberg was even a 1st rounder. And I know that when I saw him at the development camp, Collberg was downright impressive, with an already NHL wrister. But like everybody....you need development. And he didn't. Mind you...the development part is also complicated to analyse. It's false to say it's SOLELY Lefebvre. It's not true. Sometimes...the player just doesn't have in him to develop. A player might have reached his ceiling at junior level. It happens. Not true that you can give the best development coach in the world and he can transform EVERYBODY into hall of famers. Not true. Yet....you have to take the overall body of work. And since he's there, on top of having losing team after losing team....what the heck can you attribute Lefebvre's good work? At one point, even if it might not be his fault....you just have to try something else. What is the worst that could happen....we could lose, not make the playoffs, and not see a lot of development in our players? What's new there?
1909
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I am still very surprised that Lefebvre was re-hired... and Timmins promoted.
These two guys, nd many of the guys surrounding them, should had been showned the door.
montreal
Go Habs Go
Ok, so the guy that has a proven track record is at fault but not the guy that has never been a head coach before? So why do you think Timmins and his staff went from drafting NHLers to 36 games of Gallagher, a confused Beaulieu and a 7th D in Pateryn in 5 years?
Do you watch a lot of our AHL team? Do you agree with the decisions he makes? Would you put the 2 youngest and weakest forwards both physically and defensively on the same line for much of the season? Would you move your most skilled prospect to center days after being out for most of the season and had a major injury in the off-season? Would you take you top players off the top 6 and replace them with non skilled players, and do the same on the PP when you have one of the worst PP's in the AHL over your first 3 years as head coach.
Do these sound like good moves?
Tinordi if he was born 5-10 years sooner, would have been fine, but who would have thought that 6'6 physical stay at home defensemen would be out of favor.
Leblanc was a bona fide prospect, how the hell was he not? He was USHL rookie of the Year, led his team in scoring at 17. Went to the NCAA, led his team in scoring as an 18 year old freshman which is very rare, Ivy League rookie of the year. Goes to the Q, one of the top scorers for Team Canada at the WJC's, leads his team in ppg. goes to the AHL is a top player on the team as 20 year old, gets called up to the NHL and puts up 10 pts in half a season with limited ice time. If you didn't know who I was talking about, wouldn't that sound like a bona fide prospect? If not what more would a prospect need to do to be a bona fided prospect?
Hockey is mostly mental. There's a reason why they say bringing up a prospect too soon can ruin him as once their confidence is gone, it can be very hard to get back. That said, I never got how people can look at 5 years with almost nothing to show for it and not point the finger at the development and drafting.
Collberg is one of the all time leaders in scoring for Team Sweden at the WJC's, he likely peaked at 18 or so as it happens a fair bit but that's a part of scouting 17/18 year olds.
He would probably have been OK 10 years sooner, I agree.
But another problem is that dinosaur Lefebvre incited him to fight, which is incredibly stupid. It's been obvious for years that fighting is being phased out. Why let one of your top prospect fight some goon in the AHL?
I know a guy who had the build and way enough talent to make it to the NHL as a goon (about 20 years ago). But the fighting part was just too much for him psychologically. Fighting in the AHL and NHL is not easy. I could figure a player losing interest in hockey if fighting has to be part of his game and he doesn't particularly enjoy it.
And all of that is besides the additional injury risk, which actually also happened to Tinordi. Broke his hand during a fight. Like he could afford to lose some of the limited talent he had there.
Tighthead
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- Nov 9, 2016
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I'm not sure Tinordi would have made it under any circumstances, but his overall development plan seemed flawed. It seems like the Habs rushed him to the NHL but short leashed him, and then the demotions to the AHL seemed like setbacks. I do know that when he got out cold by some goon AHL lifer it seemed to represent just how wrong everything had all gone.
As for Leblanc, he looked okay in that 40 game stint, then the next year he was struggling in Hamilton and it seeemd the organization had soured on him. He seemed to go from over the hump to behind the ball.
I'm not laying all the blame, or even most of it on Sly for these players. I'm not absolving the players. However, in terms of the organization, it seemed like there was no plan.
1909
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Here is my take on the Tinordi development.
He would get called up, play a game or two and look decent. He would get caught going out of his way to make the big hit and when he missed he would get benched. He played the puck safely out of his zone by banking it off of the glass as opposed to an outlet pass. Therrien would not be pleased and would sit him in the press box. He would come back in and play more tentatively which was not his style of game. He would get sent down to the AHL. Because of his size he had to be a fighter down there because that's where all of the goons are. Goons would get him to fight just because of his size. He would get called back up and the same cycle would happen.
I really just wish that the Habs would have kept him up and hand him a good solid twenty game tryout. Let him play but shelter him as much as you can. Let him build his confidence and learn when to and when to not step up for the big hit.
To me he was a sure fire NHLer who was just badly mismanaged.
He would get called up, play a game or two and look decent. He would get caught going out of his way to make the big hit and when he missed he would get benched. He played the puck safely out of his zone by banking it off of the glass as opposed to an outlet pass. Therrien would not be pleased and would sit him in the press box. He would come back in and play more tentatively which was not his style of game. He would get sent down to the AHL. Because of his size he had to be a fighter down there because that's where all of the goons are. Goons would get him to fight just because of his size. He would get called back up and the same cycle would happen.
I really just wish that the Habs would have kept him up and hand him a good solid twenty game tryout. Let him play but shelter him as much as you can. Let him build his confidence and learn when to and when to not step up for the big hit.
To me he was a sure fire NHLer who was just badly mismanaged.
Top Corner2
Registered User
Tinordi was drafted at a time when teams wanted big tough D, even if they lacked mobility and hockey sense. The league changed and there was a huge rise in smaller puck moving D. It was a terrible year for D. Forbert & McIlrath & Gormley were taken ahead of Tinordi... even Gudbransen hasn't worked out great...
Ezpz
No mad pls
- Apr 16, 2013
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You can't "fix" a player's development at 23+. A player that's been poorly developed for 5 years post draft isn't gonna turn it around anywhere. Some people blossom late but usually they have clear development the whole time. Not to say all our players were poorly developed, but some were. Imagine if Morgan Ellis had gone to the ECHL two years prior for example. How did he magically become a top pairing AHL all star guy after struggling on the bottom pairing under Lefebvre for two years? Or Avtsin had stayed in Russia for two years. Though in his case his problem was between the ears, he was still considered one of if not the top 1991 Russian born player before we drafted him. That means at one point he was ahead of Tarasenko and Burmistrov. Regressing four consecutive years isn't the sign of a great development organization.
For me Lefebvre's real failures are DLR and Nathan Beaulieu. DLR came with a pro ready game and body for the fourth line.. and was used on the fourth line in the AHL. Why was there no attempt to push him into a higher ceiling? Christian Thomas, TJ Hensick, Maxime Macenauer, even Dumont/Friberg/other AHL vets. We saw them as more important to develop? For a guy who always used the excuse he's not there to win games, he certainly coaches like someone who's trying not to lose.
Beaulieu also came with clear weaknesses and clear strengths. His skating and poise were better at 18 than 23. It seems like his weaknesses were never worked on and his strengths degraded into nothing. He went from offensive dmen to simple pmd to simple pass dman.
Ghetto I won't blame him for, that's on Therrien. Colorado will enjoy their free top 6 winger while they finish last again.
For me Lefebvre's real failures are DLR and Nathan Beaulieu. DLR came with a pro ready game and body for the fourth line.. and was used on the fourth line in the AHL. Why was there no attempt to push him into a higher ceiling? Christian Thomas, TJ Hensick, Maxime Macenauer, even Dumont/Friberg/other AHL vets. We saw them as more important to develop? For a guy who always used the excuse he's not there to win games, he certainly coaches like someone who's trying not to lose.
Beaulieu also came with clear weaknesses and clear strengths. His skating and poise were better at 18 than 23. It seems like his weaknesses were never worked on and his strengths degraded into nothing. He went from offensive dmen to simple pmd to simple pass dman.
Ghetto I won't blame him for, that's on Therrien. Colorado will enjoy their free top 6 winger while they finish last again.
Adam Michaels
Registered User
Aside from Tinordi himself, I blame Therrien more than I do Lefebvre. If anything, he was doing well in the AHL. Well enough to get called up. His transition to the NHL was seamless at first. He'd have good and solid games. So him coming in the majors and fitting right in says he was being groomed well enough in the minors. But a mistake here and a bad shift there, MT planted him on the bench and/or scratched him the next game. As soon as he started to maybe feel more comfortable, he'd get sent back down. I think Tinordi isn't mentally strong enough, but I also think MT didn't help the kid.
MT did the same thing to Pateryn and Beaulieu. But one thing I noticed when CJ took over, even when Beaulieu had some miscues, he was back out there the next shift. A stark contrast to MT who would normally glue him on the bench or really cut his ice time after that.
So in Tinordi's case, I don't blame Lefebvre as much as I do Therrien.
MT did the same thing to Pateryn and Beaulieu. But one thing I noticed when CJ took over, even when Beaulieu had some miscues, he was back out there the next shift. A stark contrast to MT who would normally glue him on the bench or really cut his ice time after that.
So in Tinordi's case, I don't blame Lefebvre as much as I do Therrien.
Le Barron de HF
Justin make me proud
I do recall Tinordi having some really good stretches in the NHL. He was excellent at the 2014 training camp where he was laying massive hits and also in the 2013 playoffs. It's a shame he didn't develop but there was a multitude of things that didn't help him (how league is trending, injuries from fighting, father's influence, Therrien benching him). At the end of the day it's hard to say whether or not he had the proper hockey sense to be a defensive specialist a la Gill. Similarly to when I watched him Pateryn play, I saw a guy who wasn't making the right decisions when defending. It might have been because of how he was taught to play by JJD but when you see a guy like Benn play defense and him, there's a clear difference. Seems like Tinordi just didn't have the IQ like O'Byrne. (Here's actually an old article where I compare the two with old posts from HF: http://rabidhabs.com/is-jarred-tinordi-just-ryan-obyrne-2-0/)
LaP
Registered User
I don't think the point is to solely blame Sly. People blame development and Sly is part of it. But yeah it also includes MT, Lapointe and cie. The thing is our drafting and scouting team had success in the past. Maybe it was just luck but they had success. The current development team (prior to hiring CJ) simply never had much success anywhere.
Personally i think DLR, Leblanc, Tinordi and Beaulieu all looked like NHLers the first time they were called up. Maybe not top 6 or top 4 but at least guys who could play in the NHL. Beaulieu looked great in that playoffs series against Boston when we asked him to replace Bouillon. Tinordi was one of the few guys who did not look awful in that playoffs series against Ottawa. Leblanc looked like a legit bottom 6 guy his first 40 games under Cunney. DLR looked like a surefire bottom 6 defensive guy the first time he skated in the NHL.
All those guys pretty much regressed over time imo. Not only they did not progress but they actually looked worse. In the last 4 years the only prospect drafted by us who graduated in our current lineup is Lehkonen. It happens that he was developed outside of the organization. Maybe it's just a coincidence but still ... it's certainly bad enough to question the people in charge of development.
1909
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DLR was way too young to be called up; he was not ready at all. He might be, soon, though.
Beaulieu messed up his carreer with his off ice behaviors, lack of maturity, and uneven play;
Tinordi and Leblanc never improved with their new organisations, Phoenix and Anaheim. Tinordi is still at AHL level, and Leblanc has retired.
WeThreeKings
Habs cup - its in the BAG
Stop perpetuating this ******** stance.
If their prime developmental years are mishandled, athletes very rarely recover especially when they are competing against the highest level athletes in the world where the smallest thing can drop you down.
Their lack of success elsewhere after being handled poorly is not a strong indicator that they were bad players, it's just proof they were ruined beyond repair.
cphabs
The 2 stooges….
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LaP
Registered User
I don't think you can ruin a player. But development and progression past 24 years old is hard and rare (mainly because there's not much time left before the prime years are done). Some guys blossom after 24 like Byron but it's rare. If a player's development between 18 and 23 years old was mishandled he is not necessarily ruined he just have 5 years of development to catch up while he should technically be entering his prime years so yeah most of the time other teams wont bother with them and at this point they have the AHLer for life stamp on them. Like we don't bother with Friberg we focus on our own prospect.
The real debate is whatever a player can develop between 18 and 23. Some guys think it's IMPOSSIBRU and players at 18 are at their max potential and at this point it's 100% on them to become a pro player. Other guys like me happen to think development between 18 and 23 is important for most players not named Crosby or McJesus and if not done properly then most of those players simply can't catch up and recover. They are not ruined they simply don't have enough time left until they turn 30 to learn the pro game.
Of course development is not everything. There's many other factors (skills, being willing to learn, work ethic, mental strength, etc ...) but development between 18 and 23 is imo a lot more important than some guys around here think it is.
montreal
Go Habs Go
agree with a lot of the points on Tinordi and how he was handled. Have said so many times that I don't just blame Lefebvre, as Timmins and his staff, the players (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc, etc...) management for calling them up too soon, both coaching staffs for not handling them better. With Lefebvre I often just don't understand or like the moves he makes, and while it may be unfair, I guess I just expect a former NHL defensmen to be able to improve our D prospects. It took to pairing Beaulieu with Gonchar that he really turned things around. Hopefully I'm wrong since MB brought back the entire AHL coaching staff, if not we got problems.
agreed, good points.
agreed, good points.
1909
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Stop yourself puking non sense left and right.
If these guys were unable to re-gain a NHL status, iot is because they were lacking the very basic character needed to succeed. Many guys never drafted made it to the big show. These 1st round draft picks were lacking something to start with.
The excuses just keep on coming LOL
Andrighrtto came through the same system, went to Colorado and carved himself out a nice little niche.
Tinordi and Leblanc couldn't cut it out in the nhl.....that's it. The Habs certainly didn't ruin Leblanc to the point where he's actually retired, come on!!!!!
Did Pittsburgh ruin Esposito?
Did Chicago ruin Beach
Did Tampa ruin Koekkoek
Did philly ruin Morin?
Danault in Chicago didn't exactly torch the league.....he comes to Montreal and blossoms!! Is Chicago horrible at developing??
The list is endless.....
TheBuriedHab
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- Jan 27, 2010
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You are picking 18 year old kids who aren't fully developed. Anything outside the top 10 is a total crapshoot.
montreal
Go Habs Go
Of course prospects are always going to bust, to me I just don't know how anyone can look at Timmins record in the past and the Habs record of development in the past and then in 5 years of one coach in the AHL who never coached a single game in his life as a head coach at any level of organized hockey and all he has to his credit is 36 games with Gallagher, a shaky Beaulieu and Ghetto's big point production in 19 games at the end of the season when most teams were too busy looking at the next team instead of worrying about facing the worst team in the league. Will be very interesting to see how Ghetto, Pateryn, DLR, Hudon, McCarron all do if they are in the NHL next year.
montreal
Go Habs Go
total crapshoot, no.
http://www2.tsn.ca/fantasy_news/story/?id=455673
http://www.tsn.ca/playing-the-percentages-in-the-nhl-draft-1.206144
But how do you explain,
Pre-Lefebvre (6 drafts from '03 to '08)
Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Halak, Kostitsyn, Grabovski, Sergei Kostitsyn, Lapierre, Chipchura, Ryan White, D'Agostini, O'Byrne, Yannick Weber
That's 13 draft picks that went through our AHL team and appeared in over 300 NHL games. Aside from the 2 goalies, all but White, Weber and O'Byrne put up over 100 points in the NHL to date.
Under Lefebvre (6 drafts from '09 to '14 since last 3 drafts still early to say)
Gallagher, Beaulieu, Ghetto, McCarron.
That's 4 draft picks that went through the AHL under Lefebvre that finished the season in the NHL or spent equal time in the NHL and AHL last year.
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