Lefebvre Discussion

Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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You are picking 18 year old kids who aren't fully developed. Anything outside the top 10 is a total crapshoot.
The draft is incredibly linear actually. It's a crapshoot if you're talking in terms of a star player but on average an 11th overall will outproduce a 12th etc.... It's not a total crapshoot from that standpoint.
 

jfm133

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Nov 6, 2015
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Reway has already done a lot more than Collberg.

My point is that both Collberg and Lekhonen took the Frolunda route. One is a bust, the other looks good. So the avoid Laval (Sly) argument is not valid. Some players ust because they don't have what it takes (Leblanc, Tinordi, etc...), others like Gallagher made it easily.
 

LaP

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Jun 27, 2012
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My point is that both Collberg and Lekhonen took the Frolunda route. One is a bust, the other looks good. So the avoid Laval (Sly) argument is not valid.

Come one. That's such a ridiculous statement to make i don't even know where to begin. One player failed in frolunda therefore frolunda is not good at developing kids therefore coaches and development don't matter therefore Lehkonen did not development he was always good. Man it pains me to read such logic ...

Two players = small sample size = no even worth discussing about.

Come back after you did a deeper analysis of Frolunda and how "their kids" develop. Like the last 5 or 6 years. Same sample size as Sly. Man forget it i'll do it for you. Young players who played for Frolunda one season and reached the NHL in the last 6 years (2011-2017 notable players only) :

Lehkonen
Frederik Andersen
Erik Karlsson (yes teh Erik Karlsson)
John Klingberg
Alexander Wennberg

Holy mother of god that's lot better than Sly. But you know i don't give a **** about Frolunda. Maybe Frolunda was just lucky i don't ***** care. Sweden is good a developing kids period. Doesn't really matter which team it is. If i had a Swedish kid i would keep him in the SEL and he would not see the face of Sly one single second before graduating in the NHL.

It's not normal that in the last 5 years the only player who played in the AHL and will be playing in the NHL for us next year or was used to get something good in a trade is Gallagher a guy who played in the AHL because of the lockout. People can spin it the way they want it's not normal. Our AHL team did not even develop a ****** 4th line player in the last 5 years. That's not a small sample size.

It will be a big year for Sly. If all of Hudon, BigMac, DLR, Scherbak keep not developing then he must be fired at the end of the year. We have a couple of good kids incoming they need a real coach. I'm just puzzled at anyone thinking development doesn't matter between 20 and 23 and thinking it's already set in stone at 20 who will make the NHL or not. I just don't understand.
 
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Rockomax

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Jan 16, 2007
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My point is that both Collberg and Lekhonen took the Frolunda route. One is a bust, the other looks good. So the avoid Laval (Sly) argument is not valid. Some players ust because they don't have what it takes (Leblanc, Tinordi, etc...), others like Gallagher made it easily.

Of course it's a valid argument. The fact that Collberg did not develop well doesn't reduce Lefebvre's failure in terms of players development. Also, Frolunda having a good reputation in player development doesn't mean that all their players are going to develop correctly. Bottom line, Frolunda's performance has no connection to Lefebvre. People say to avoid him because he has proved over the years that he's terrible at his job and that pretty much any other option is a better option at this point. The argument is very much valid.
 

WeThreeKings

Habs cup - its in the BAG
Sep 19, 2006
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Of course it's a valid argument. The fact that Collberg did not develop well doesn't reduce Lefebvre's failure in terms of players development. Also, Frolunda having a good reputation in player development doesn't mean that all their players are going to develop correctly. Bottom line, Frolunda's performance has no connection to Lefebvre. People say to avoid him because he has proved over the years that he's terrible at his job and that pretty much any other option is a better option at this point. The argument is very much valid.

Their argument is that just because some players are so good at an early age, that development is useless. So keep Sly, since it doesn't matter and its always the players fault.

Theres a reason that over a hundred years of hockey that teams pay lots of money, in lots of sports, for development coaches, trainers, etc. It's because it's proven that it's effective when done properly.

Look at Belichick and the Patriots. Pop and the Spurs. Good coaches, good development teams, they remain at the top for a long time.

****, even the team we cheer for is credited for the template of development in hockey and lead us to being a dominant team for many years.

This is the stage we are at. The Canadiens were once Masters of innovation. Setting the standard. The model of success and ahead of the curve.

That history is lost, it's bastardized. Now the Canadiens identity is clinging to the objects of the past that reflect the success it had but completely miss the driving points of that success. The current brain trust sucks onto the rest of the dead puck era logic and is actively staying behind the curve to appease the Neanderthal logic of its general manager.
 

LaP

Registered User
Jun 27, 2012
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Quebec City, Canada
Their argument is that just because some players are so good at an early age, that development is useless. So keep Sly, since it doesn't matter and its always the players fault.

But if development/coaching is useless then why keep Sly? Just let one of the player be the coach and save some money.
 

get25

Registered User
Oct 17, 2015
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Come one. That's such a ridiculous statement to make i don't even know where to begin. One player failed in frolunda therefore frolunda is not good at developing kids therefore coaches and development don't matter therefore Lehkonen did not development he was always good. Man it pains me to read such logic ...

Two players = small sample size = no even worth discussing about.

Come back after you did a deeper analysis of Frolunda and how "their kids" develop. Like the last 5 or 6 years. Same sample size as Sly. Man forget it i'll do it for you. Young players who played for Frolunda one season and reached the NHL in the last 6 years (2011-2017 notable players only) :

Lehkonen
Frederik Andersen
Erik Karlsson (yes the Erik Karlsson)
John Klingberg
Alexander Wennberg

Holy mother of god that's lot better than Sly. But you know i don't give a **** about Frolunda. Maybe Frolunda was just lucky i don't ***** care. Sweden is good a developing kids period. Doesn't really matter which team it is. If i had a Swedish kid i would keep him in the SEL and he would not see the face of Sly one single second before graduating in the NHL.

It's not normal that in the last 5 years the only player who played in the AHL and will be playing in the NHL for us next year or was used to get something good in a trade is Gallagher a guy who played in the AHL because of the lockout. People can spin it the way they want it's not normal. Our AHL team did not even develop a ****** 4th line player in the last 5 years. That's not a small sample size.

It will be a big year for Sly. If all of Hudon, BigMac, DLR, Scherbak keep not developing then he must be fired at the end of the year. We have a couple of good kids incoming they need a real coach. I'm just puzzled at anyone thinking development doesn't matter between 20 and 23 and thinking it's already set in stone at 20 who will make the NHL or not. I just don't understand.
SHL >> AHL

It is also recognized that Frolunda is really good at developing players.
But we do have an infrastructure and coaches to do a good job.
The question of Sly will need to be considered next year if needed.

So you think Karlsson, Andersen, Klingberg and Wennberg would all have failed in AHL with Sly?
I see no proof just ranting like so many do about Sly.

Karlsson is the best d-men in the league but would have failed with Sly?
Wennberg a top center but he would not have scored in AHL?
Pretty sure that Klingberg and Andersen would also have made it with Sly.

We have to be honest here, ranting against Sly and MB is the new trend.

These are top players.

Karlsson was picked 15th, Wennberg was picked 14th, Klingberg took 5 years to make it to NHL and played in Frolunda only when he was 24, Andersen was drafted at 21 and again at 23.

Besides Gallagher (5th round), how many top prospects did he have?
And he did a pretty good job with him in 2012-13 BTW.
After 38 games in AHL with Sly he was able to make it to NHL.
Arguably the best talent Sly had in 5 years.

Did we give Sly Karlsson, Wennberg, Klinberg or Andersen?
Since he came, who was in the goal? Tokarski, Mayer, Pascale, Fucale?
We also had Condon (we lost him in waivers), Darling for a game and Dubnick after 8 games.

Last year was the first time with a good AHL goalie and he made it to the PO.

If we are so bad, why these players who were in Frolunda did not play in AHL (23 games if you remove Andersen). So they are also bad in AHL?
For me, it is based on contracts. Leaving those players in Frolunda allows the contract to slide. Especially top players like this that could have be in AHL if their team wanted.

For now, I see McCarron who was expected to be a bottom-6 player and he is going in that direction (top-6 was beyond my expectations like many here).
Same with DLR: great pick to make it at bottom-6 for at least 200-400 NHL games.
Meanwhile, Sly has done really good with Hudon given his speed.

For Scherback, Juulsen, Bourque, Lernout and others we need to wait.

Let's see how he does this year with Holland and Froese in the line-up.
He should get further in PO.

Would like to see how he does with a top-15.
Did he ever had a top-24 pick in his team besides Beaulieu?

Look at the team that was given to him in 2012 and Dumont is our best scorer with 31 points.
That is below Terry, Hudon, Scherback and DLR. Below the pace of McCarron.
Same than Friberg and one point more than Audette who was a rookie.

He had Dumont, Beaulieu, Bournival, Holland, Tenute and Blunden as top-6 scorer.
Do you see any of these players in Frolunda?
Anyone in line for a career in NHL?
Because they are now in other systems.

Can you blame him for the 2012 draft and the players that did not perform?

He did pretty well with the 2013 draft for now given expectations for the players.
Let's see how those players do and how he does manage the 2014 draft.

So we are now down to blame Sly for Beaulieu.
TBH, Beaulieu has consistently improve in offense. Defense is another story...

Next year with McCarron, McNiven, DLR, Hudon, Lindgren, Bourque, Juulsen and even Andrighetto we will have a better perspective.
If Andrighetto gets 50+ points, is it despite Sly or because of Sly.

DLR and Hudon should be in NHL and we will be able to know better, but for now McCarron needs more strength in his lower body and Hudon needs more speed.
Not so sure about Addison...

Just trying to be rational about this: comparing 2012 vs 2017 in AHL.

BTW, we did not pick a player that could play in Frolunda this year. Maybe Ikonen next year (following Lehkonen path: one year in Finland then to SHL).
 

get25

Registered User
Oct 17, 2015
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My point is that both Collberg and Lekhonen took the Frolunda route. One is a bust, the other looks good. So the avoid Laval (Sly) argument is not valid. Some players ust because they don't have what it takes (Leblanc, Tinordi, etc...), others like Gallagher made it easily.
I think that Reway has shown more than Lehkonen and Collberg did in Frolunda.

He is certainly able to compete in AHL.
Just needs to be healthy.

If he is healthy, Reway is a fabulous wild card.
 

montreal

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We have to be honest here, ranting against Sly and MB is the new trend.

Besides Gallagher (5th round), how many top prospects did he have?
And he did a pretty good job with him in 2012-13 BTW.
After 38 games in AHL with Sly he was able to make it to NHL.
Arguably the best talent Sly had in 5 years.

Did we give Sly Karlsson, Wennberg, Klinberg or Andersen?
Since he came, who was in the goal? Tokarski, Mayer, Pascale, Fucale?
We also had Condon (we lost him in waivers), Darling for a game and Dubnick after 8 games.

Last year was the first time with a good AHL goalie and he made it to the PO

Gallagher played 36 games in his AHL career, I know it's only 2 game difference but better to get it right.

But in no way was last year the first time with a good AHL goalie. Condon was great and Tok was their MVP in '13-'14. I know cause I watched almost every game, if not for him they would have been dead last in the AHL. Mayer would give up 3 or 4 goals much of the time other then one hot streak he went on.

But Lefebvre has had talent. 1st round picks in Scherbak, McCarron, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi. 2nd round picks in DLR, Fucale, Thomas, 3rd round picks in Ghetto, Bournival, Lernout, Bennett

Plus Hudon, Carr, Gallagher, Dumont, Pateryn

plus solid vets like Holloway, Hensick, Barberio, Martin St. Pierre, Davis Drewiske, Blunden, Tangradi

Aside from the year when Fucale was the starter, goaltending has been the backbone of the AHL teams under Lefebvre (though that speaks to the job Vincent Riendeau has done)
 

get25

Registered User
Oct 17, 2015
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Gallagher played 36 games in his AHL career, I know it's only 2 game difference but better to get it right.

But in no way was last year the first time with a good AHL goalie. Condon was great and Tok was their MVP in '13-'14. I know cause I watched almost every game, if not for him they would have been dead last in the AHL. Mayer would give up 3 or 4 goals much of the time other then one hot streak he went on.

But Lefebvre has had talent. 1st round picks in Scherbak, McCarron, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi. 2nd round picks in DLR, Fucale, Thomas, 3rd round picks in Ghetto, Bournival, Lernout, Bennett

Plus Hudon, Carr, Gallagher, Dumont, Pateryn

plus solid vets like Holloway, Hensick, Barberio, Martin St. Pierre, Davis Drewiske, Blunden, Tangradi

Aside from the year when Fucale was the starter, goaltending has been the backbone of the AHL teams under Lefebvre (though that speaks to the job Vincent Riendeau has done)
Well you have the vets: Terry, Holloway, St-Pierre and Hensick.

Then Dumont, Hudon, Andrighetto and Scherback were the only other ones to get 40+ points.
 

jfm133

Registered User
Nov 6, 2015
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Now Karlsson success is because he played 45 games with Frolunda while he was 18? Sure. Sly would have turned Karlsson into a bust? Come on! Gallagher played 36 games while being 20 years old and Sly has no credit, but 45 games at 18 fror Karlsson is a proof of how great Frolunda is. Nothing against Frolunda, but they are as good as the prospects they get.
 

Wats

Error 520
Mar 8, 2006
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Now Karlsson success is because he played 45 games with Frolunda while he was 18? Sure. Sly would have turned Karlsson into a bust? Come on! Gallagher played 36 games while being 20 years old and Sly has no credit, but 45 games at 18 fror Karlsson is a proof of how great Frolunda is. Nothing against Frolunda, but they are as good as the prospects they get.

Games =\= time spent with organization. That said, I don't think Karlsson would have bust with Lefebvre. Maybe develop slower.
 

get25

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Oct 17, 2015
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Games =\= time spent with organization. That said, I don't think Karlsson would have bust with Lefebvre. Maybe develop slower.
I know you do not like the way Lefebvre does his job.

But besides Gallagher for half season and Beaulieu for a few games and Beaulieu for two years you can not say he had such great talent.
There is Scherback still as a project and McCarron and DLR going pretty well toward expected bottom-6.
Finally, I see Hudon and Lingren.

Look back at the AHL team back in 2012-13 when Dumont was our best scorer at 31 points.

Anyway, we will see with Hudon and DLR as this is a make or break year.
BTW, at the same age, Froese was in ECHL and Holland had 29 NHL games...
 

Teufelsdreck

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Sep 17, 2005
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The Habs are not devoid of talent. I expect them to qualify for the 2018 playoffs.

Their depth at LW is impressive. Add a #1 center and perhaps one talented RW and they'd be a potent offensive team.

Juulsen will be good and I'm curious about Mete. The defense may not be outstanding but it should be solid. (It was unreasonable to expect Markov to last forever.)

Finally, the Habs are set at goaltending with Price, Montoya, and Lindgren.
 

Teufelsdreck

Registered User
Sep 17, 2005
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I know you do not like the way Lefebvre does his job.

But besides Gallagher for half season and Beaulieu for a few games and Beaulieu for two years you can not say he had such great talent.
There is Scherback still as a project and McCarron and DLR going pretty well toward expected bottom-6.
Finally, I see Hudon and Lingren.

Look back at the AHL team back in 2012-13 when Dumont was our best scorer at 31 points.

Anyway, we will see with Hudon and DLR as this is a make or break year.
BTW, at the same age, Froese was in ECHL and Holland had 29 NHL games...
I'm not confident about either Hudon or DLR.
 

DangerDave

Mete's Shot
Feb 8, 2015
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he'll prove you wrong realy fast, Hudon will likely be a fans favorite faster than people think, i can't believe people think his game wont translate.

Well, they have good reason. Hes small and not a great skater. His shooting percentage is very high. Hes got OK hands. Not saying he won't make it but he's not a guarantee.
 

Scriptor

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Jan 1, 2014
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Well, they have good reason. Hes small and not a great skater. His shooting percentage is very high. Hes got OK hands. Not saying he won't make it but he's not a guarantee.

Hudon is not a guarantee, I agree, but the coaching staff will have a lot to do with whether he sticks or not in how they use him and what kind of genuine chance he actually gets, especially at the beginning of the year where injuries won't force Julien's hand.

Julien can say he'll give Hudon every chance all he wants, but historically, Julien is a veteran's coach and Hemsky is likely to be in Hudon's way in Julien's mind.

The problem I see with Hudon beating out Hemsky in Julien's esteem is that Hemsky brings two elements to the ice that Hudon doesn't necessarily bring; speed and defensive awareness.

If Julien looks to Hudon to beat Hemsky in those two aspects, it won't happen, and even if Hudon clearly beats out Hemsky, there will be Shaw (who Julien really likes) to beat out for quality ice time that would allow Hudon to shine by playing more to his strengths than in a 4th line role or a checking 3rd line role (if that's how Julien uses his third line).

It won't be easy for Hudon, but if he could translate his game to the NHL level, the Habs would be much better for it. Hudon brings the creative offensive elements that Drouin brings, minus the speed, and to a lesser degree, even then. However, he's a double threat that can be an agile playmaker and still roof pucks into the opposing net.

I'd rather bank on Hudon reaching his full potential (the team would be better for it, at an excessively cheap price), than hope Hemsky can coax out an extra so-so season in his career.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Hemsky is a valuable safety net that brings an ability to carry the puck at high speed into the O-zone on the end of his stick and some decent playmaking ability to go with it. Still, he's not to be considered a building block towards the future and shouldn't get privileged ice time without proving that he deserves it.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
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Games =\= time spent with organization. That said, I don't think Karlsson would have bust with Lefebvre. Maybe develop slower.

What an insult to Karlsson...

Come on man, you can't seriously believe that.
 
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Doc McKenna

A new era 2021
Jan 5, 2009
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Games =\= time spent with organization. That said, I don't think Karlsson would have bust with Lefebvre. Maybe develop slower.

The reason Gally developed as did Karrlson, is because they didn't spend their time on a BAD farm team with poor coaching. Detroit has a great development system and turns turds into diamonds(in the rough of course).

We have ONE prospect that looks like they have made the Habs, Lehk. The only thing that makes him different from Reway, Hudon, Mac, Scherbak etc is he didn't spend any signifcant time on the Jr Habs.
 

Mario le Magnifique

Habs apologist, closet Pens fan
Dec 6, 2007
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I think that Reway has shown more than Lehkonen and Collberg did in Frolunda.

He is certainly able to compete in AHL.
Just needs to be healthy.

If he is healthy, Reway is a fabulous wild card.

His stats are good but he is exposed defensively, at least last season, as shown by his -7 in less than 20 games played. All we need not is more smurfs who needs sheltered offensive zone starts.
 

montreal

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I wouldn't look at Collberg's busting as having anything to do with Lefebvre. Some kids just peak, it ended up being one of Timmins worst picks imo, but at the time of the WJC's he certainly looked like he was going to be something. Good on the Habs to actually get something of value for him at the time.

My point with Lefebvre has been that since imo we have one of the best scouts in the NHL who clearly can find NHL talent, we should be getting better results then we have under Lefebvre. That and I just don't understand/agree with a number of moves he makes which to me as someone just sitting behind a computer just don't seem like good ways to develop players. Clearly management feels differently although these past 5 years we haven't had much to show for it and that should be concerning to management.

As for Reway/Collberg/Lehkonen, I saw a lot of Reway in the Czech league and Lehkonen in the SHL, it's hard to say which was more impressive as I would lean Reway if he played a full season and still ended up leading the league in scoring. But what Lehkonen did in the SHL playoffs, I would have to go with him as being more impressive. I'm fully admit I'm in compete shock that Collberg doesn't even seem to be good in the SHL, really thought he would have been at worst a decent NHLer.
 

CGG

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Jan 6, 2005
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and then a coach arrives, and during his tenure, no prospects graduate... nothing.

Starting to wonder if we know what "graduate" means. No one has graduated since Sly got hired, except for:

Gallagher
Beaulieu
Pateryn
Condon
Andrighetto
And very shortly... Hudon

Or do you really want to say that Drouin didn't "graduate" from the Bolts' AHL farm team because he's since been traded?
 

TheBlindFan

Registered User
Sep 7, 2008
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Starting to wonder if we know what "graduate" means. No one has graduated since Sly got hired, except for:

Gallagher
Beaulieu
Pateryn
Condon
Andrighetto
And very shortly... Hudon

Or do you really want to say that Drouin didn't "graduate" from the Bolts' AHL farm team because he's since been traded?
and
Dustin Tokarski

An the close shoot:
DLR (2013 34th), McCarron (2013 25th), Carr (not draft)​

The injury scad:
Geoffrion, Bournival, Bozon​

The hamilton victim
Nygren (who dislike the city more then anything else...)​
 

montreal

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Mar 21, 2002
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Starting to wonder if we know what "graduate" means. No one has graduated since Sly got hired, except for:

Gallagher
Beaulieu
Pateryn
Condon
Andrighetto
And very shortly... Hudon

Or do you really want to say that Drouin didn't "graduate" from the Bolts' AHL farm team because he's since been traded?

In 5 years he's had Gallagher, who played 36 games for him, was a back to back to back 40+ goal scorer in the WHL. Wonder how much he learned from Lefebvre in that time.

Beaulieu and Ghetto are 2 NHL players that developed under him in 5 years plus half a season of Gallagher. Hudon will make it 3 in 6 years. . Condon I give way more credit to Vincent Riendeau who was the goalie coach in Hamilton at the time.

Pateryn we'll see if he makes the Stars and what role he has. If he's a full time NHLer, that's clearly on Lefebvre, as Pateryn was much better in the AHL then he was in the NCAA.
 

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