News Article: Lebreton talks in mediation to salvage deal

[pzeeman]

What isn't clear is the extent to which the devcore bid can be changed. They can negotiate melnyk in because the proposal included an arena but it's not like there is a pick list here and they can drop items they don't like and add what they dO want. Doing that sort of thing invites a 3rd party to complain about the process

I agree that it seems the NCC isn’t obliged to do anything, be that re open the bidding or go straight to Devcore.

I listened pretty closely the morning after the NCC bombshell when JR and Steve has the Devcore rep on. He said they would adapt their plan to what has already been accomplished.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

That was the joke. Several times you referred to the "EM haters" as if there are actually two sides to Eugene Melnyk's popularity in this city, or anywhere across the league.

If you can't ascertain that there are outright Haters of EM, who post in these threads, then I can't help you.

I've never suggested that there are EM lovers, in these threads............ but many have been accused of being EM lovers, in a weak attempt to smear them, or their opinions.

Many people can separate the team, it's performance, the players and the games from the off ice side show that also includes the current owner sticking his foot in his mouth, while also shooting himself in the (other) foot.

 

[RaMai]

If you can't ascertain that there are outright Haters of EM, who post in these threads, then I can't help you.

I've never suggested that there are EM lovers, in these threads............ but many have been accused of being EM lovers, in a weak attempt to smear them, or their opinions.

Many people can separate the team, it's performance, the players and the games from the off ice side show that also includes the current owner sticking his foot in his mouth, while also shooting himself in the (other) foot.

And you really believe the off ice side show doesn't affect the on ice product? If you don't see how all of those things are related I can't help you.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think Melnyk AND Ruddy can hear the "footsteps" from Devcore and are giving this one last kick at the can. Doesn't benefit either one of them to see this thing become an open competition again. I don't have high hopes that EM can play nice with anyone, but at least the potential of losing this deal got both sides back to the table.

And if the impending deadline and potential loss of future profits is what it takes to get two squabbling multi millionaires to the table, have them swallow some pride and work things out so that the Senators end up playing in Lebreton Flats in about 3 or 5 years, then I'm all for it, as it's good for Senator fans, in the long run.

​

 

[Tuna99]

If you can't ascertain that there are outright Haters of EM, who post in these threads, then I can't help you.

I've never suggested that there are EM lovers, in these threads............ but many have been accused of being EM lovers, in a weak attempt to smear them, or their opinions.

Many people can separate the team, it's performance, the players and the games from the off ice side show that also includes the current owner sticking his foot in his mouth, while also shooting himself in the (other) foot.

Exactly because people can separate the game, the players from the owner is why Ottawa has turned on Melnyck. We like the team, we don’t like he owner - and you saying the fans can’t separate the two and it leads to a blind spot is condescending and makes you the one with the massive blind spot.

Fans are clear on this - we like the team, we don’t like the owner. Team stays, owner goes.

 

[slamigo]

I for one do not care who owns the team. Melnyk can own it forever and I won’t care as long as his public comments and erratic behaviour cease. I don’t know the man. At all. I don’t pretend to know him. Getting a new owner doesn’t even necessarily change anything. New owner could even be worse.
All I know is that the current state of affairs is turning me away.
If the owner would leave the limelight and some good news could replace what’s in the cycle, I would probably tune back more.
The team just needs something to look forward to right now. Signing the UFAs and making progress on Lebreton would go a long way.

 

[HF Reader]

I for one do not care who owns the team. Melnyk can own it forever and I won’t care as long as his public comments and erratic behaviour cease. I don’t know the man. At all. I don’t pretend to know him. Getting a new owner doesn’t even necessarily change anything. New owner could even be worse.
All I know is that the current state of affairs is turning me away.
If the owner would leave the limelight and some good news could replace what’s in the cycle, I would probably tune back more.
The team just needs something to look forward to right now. Signing the UFAs and making progress on Lebreton would go a long way.

In general I agree, and I don't know him either. But I can't separate the owner from his public behaviour. Melnyk does own the team (agree) and I don't like his public behaviour. Also I make assumptions about his financial commitment based on recent history. Based on these points I do care who owns the team.

But we're getting off the main topic here.

 

[JD1]

The team just needs something to look forward to right now. Signing the UFAs and making progress on Lebreton would go a long way.

It most certainly would!!!

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

How does enabling the worst NHL owner make it a win for Sens fans? Because a new stadium won’t change anything? Melnyk got that massive Sportsnet cheque and promised it would be a difference maker and Ottawa never been worse off.

People dislike Melnyck because of the person he is and how he treats people, not because of the size of his wallet.

How do you know, playing at an Arena, located in the middle of the Ottawa/Gatineau Market, situated beside Two LRT Stations, one of which also services the existing O Train line, plus the Bus routes that travel between Ottawa and Gatineau via the Chaudiere bridge ....... "won't change anything" ................. vs their current location, that's closer to Carleton Place (27 kms) than it is to Orleans (41 Kms)?????

You keep on talking about this "Massive" Sportsnet cheque, as if it's the golden ticket for the Senators to be able to compete with the big boys of the NHL.

Didn't the Leaf and the Habs also receive the same "massive" cheque fro Sportsnet also?

Heck, the Leafs received $40 million per season, for 20 years, just for the naming rights for their Arena. How do you expect a small market team like the Senators to be on par with teams that have multiple revenues that dwarf the Senators in comparison?

Everyone knows the move to Lebreton Flats is in the best interests of the Senators.

You're just to hung up on your hatred for the owner to see this.
Perhaps you should take the approach that someone else has already pointed out ..........that is if your number one priority is seeing the owner decide to sell his franchise ......... the likelihood of him selling will only be increased, when the team is playing in a downtown Arena, over where it is currently, in an Arena that has perhaps 10 more seasons at most, without a major investment, left in it's life span.

 

[Ice-Tray]

You're argument boils down to Ruddy should be paying Melnyk to allow him to build an arena. How much added profit do you really think Ruddy would realize by having the Sens there rather than something else? is it the 500+ mil that arena will cost to build?

Lets not pretend that the Ottawa Senators are the only viable options for that space. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the team to be there, but lots of things could be built there that add value to the development. Perhaps they wouldn't add quite as much value to the surrounding development, but they may not cost quite as much to build, and could provide revenue streams back to the developer instead of some guy who refuses to take any of the risk,

The team was set to assume operating costs? Really? That's so generous of them... good lord...

I took the following from your post:

1) You don’t seem to understand that Ruddy is entirely replaceable, though he seems to understand this. If he can’t make a deal work, someone else will. EM May get to live in and run someone else’s arena, for a term, but the developer gets to reap the rest of the benefits of the 4 billion dollar downtown development around a brand new LTR and NHL arena. The NCC wants the the NHL team and X developer on the project. If no group can make a deal with the team, sure, the development would likely have to go ahead with out it, but the group that does make the deal with the NHL team, will win, again. EM owns the team, but the NHL is the jewel here, blind hate for the owner clouds fan discussions in here.

2) You don’t seem to understand the finances involved in a deal like this. It’s not a big deal really, but you tend to act smug about things that seem a bit beyond you for some reason.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Exactly because people can separate the game, the players from the owner is why Ottawa has turned on Melnyck. We like the team, we don’t like he owner - and you saying the fans can’t separate the two and it leads to a blind spot is condescending and makes you the one with the massive blind spot.

Fans are clear on this - we like the team, we don’t like the owner. Team stays, owner goes.

First of, you don't speak for 100% of the fans of the Senators. Neither do I. But from my experience, there are many more fans who don't care about the owner, or just think he's a doofass, but it's not full blown hatred like you assume it is.

There is nothing you or I can do, short of offering EM his asking price for the Senators, that will make him go.

You're losing sleep over this, and wasting your time too.

In the meantime, I suspect most fans just want to see the Team play at Lebreton Flats ASAP, without caring who the owner is, as the team is the priority, not getting the owner to go, in some unexplained magic way, as you seem to be spending most of your energy on.

 

[Cosmix]

Potential money to be made.

I’m already shocked that the partners let it get this far without getting control of Melnyk. But this is absolutely an attempt to salvage the project and not lose all the cash that’s going to be made on that land.

And to help pay for the costs already incurred and legal costs due to the wrangling.

If Melnyk cannot put the capital in that is required for his part of the deal, then Ruddy or someone else might be willing to do so IF they buy the team from Melnyk for say $500M or so.

There are Agreements to be made to get this project going again.

 

[Cosmix]

I agree. First, mediation was going to happen no matter what. it is forced by the courts. now, both sides can show up to mediation and not give an inch, but it does happen, so they might as well push to get it done asap before the deadline.

I would be pretty shocked if the NCC rfp, or whatever it's called, doesn't have wording all over the place to protect themselves. It may be that the Devcore position is strong - have to move to the second bidder so,

Ruddy and Melnyk probably see which way the wind is blowing and they can either mediate and hope to salvage everything or not mediate, probably spend a bunch of money with neither side winning their case, and Devcore getting to run with it - and possible having a pretty good leverage position if Euge still wants to move downtown.

I doubt very much that the NCC would include text in a legal document that would require the NCC to “have to” enter an agreement with any other bidder. It might contain a “may” clause.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

I doubt very much that the NCC would include text in a legal document that would require the NCC to “have to” enter an agreement with any other bidder. It might contain a “may” clause.

right. I seem to have argued against myself at some point.

1. NCC would have wording protecting themselves all over the place: "may", "If we feel like it etc".
2. Rudy Melnyk know this and are running to arbitration.
3. Devcore would know this too. They are paying relatively nice at this point: run with the existing place; keep land aside for a rink for 5 years; etc. etc.
4. I think the only advantage that Devore might have is that they are legitimate, have money behind them, and could probably pick up the ball quickly.
5. if point 4 is true, it means that the NCC could turn to Devcore without looking like idiots.
   • side note: the folks behind Devcore, beyond being rich, are very connected. if the NCC wanted to start over for whatever reason, I wouldn't be surprised to hear of a lot of arm twisting and calling in of old favours on Devcore's behalf.

 

[Micklebot]

Really?

Think about this....even if his demands are met his situation wouldn't be as strong as Katz's situation in Edmonton

You don't see a pretty significant difference between Katz asking and getting loads of public money, and Melnyk asking for a private company to fund his arena? You can't ask a private company pay for something because it's in the public interest like you can with Gov't.

I also think the Edmonton situation was a farce, so there's that.

 

[JD1]

You don't see a pretty significant difference between Katz asking and getting loads of public money, and Melnyk asking for a private company to fund his arena? You can't ask a private company pay for something because it's in the public interest like you can with Gov't.

I also think the Edmonton situation was a farce, so there's that.

I don't think there is enough details to really understand the details

 

[Micklebot]

I took the following from your post:

1) You don’t seem to understand that Ruddy is entirely replaceable, though he seems to understand this. If he can’t make a deal work, someone else will. EM May get to live in and run someone else’s arena, for a term, but the developer gets to reap the rest of the benefits of the 4 billion dollar downtown development around a brand new LTR and NHL arena. The NCC wants the the NHL team and X developer on the project. If no group can make a deal with the team, sure, the development would likely have to go ahead with out it, but the group that does make the deal with the NHL team, will win, again. EM owns the team, but the NHL is the jewel here, blind hate for the owner clouds fan discussions in here.

2) You don’t seem to understand the finances involved in a deal like this. It’s not a big deal really, but you tend to act smug about things that seem a bit beyond you for some reason.

Oh the irony... not going to bother here as you go right to your usual ad hominem attacks. Have a nice day,

 

[Micklebot]

I don't think there is enough details to really understand the details

It's certainly possible the early rhetoric about zero public money has changed, but from the details we do have, the offer looks absurd imo. Perhaps there is more to it that would make it reasonable, but certainly not from what was made public.

 

[West Coast Eagles]

Operating costs on an arena for 30 years would exceed rent you'd think

Agree. But operating costs are the cost of being in the game. What do you think the delta is between us current operating costs and the new ones? I cant really see how they can be exorbitantly different. Am I missing something? Presumably CTC operating costs drastically reduce/go to nil after the move so what's the actual delta between this commitment and his current commitments?

Also I find it very interesting that the article states that CSMI are alleged to have agreed to commercial rent terms. That certainly wouldn't be $1. Perhaps that is one of the reasons Leeder was let go.

 

[JD1]

Agree. But operating costs are the cost of being in the game. What do you think the delta is between us current operating costs and the new ones? I cant really see how they can be exorbitantly different. Am I missing something? Presumably CTC operating costs drastically reduce/go to nil after the move so what's the actual delta between this commitment and his current commitments?

Also I find it very interesting that the article states that CSMI are alleged to have agreed to commercial rent terms. That certainly wouldn't be $1. Perhaps that is one of the reasons Leeder was let go.

I get the sense Leeder was let go because the meat of this deal occurred when Melnyk was out of commission and once he was healthy he didn't like the deal. Speculation on my end.

 

[JD1]

It's certainly possible the early rhetoric about zero public money has changed, but from the details we do have, the offer looks absurd imo. Perhaps there is more to it that would make it reasonable, but certainly not from what was made public.

What offer are you referring to?

 

[West Coast Eagles]

I get the sense Leeder was let go because the meat of this deal occurred when Melnyk was out of commission and once he was healthy he didn't like the deal. Speculation on my end.

Agree. I was just speculating that, if true, maybe that is a significant component (amongst others) Melnyk didnt like.

 

[Micklebot]

Operating costs on an arena for 30 years would exceed rent you'd think

Edmonton is paying 166 mil over 35 years in mostly rent, our about 4.5 mil a year as well as paying the operating expenses for the arena.

 

[Micklebot]

What offer are you referring to?

this one:

CSMI proposed to assign its interest to Trinity for the residential, retail, commercial and recreational elements of the LeBreton Flats plan. Trinity would collect all the revenue. In exchange, Trinity would finance the $500-million arena, instead of CSMI. Any profits from the massive redevelopment of LeBreton Flats would be Trinity’s alone under the CSMI pitch. CSMI proposes to pay for the operating and life-cycle costs of the arena during the lease term.

I think that proposal was asking the city to fund half of the arena development now that I think of it though it's not clear from the article if that was the latest deal, or previous requests made prior to the law suits coming out.

 

[JD1]

Edmonton is paying 166 mil over 35 years in mostly rent, our about 4.5 mil a year as well as paying the operating expenses for the arena.

they have rights to all revenue associated with all events do they not? including naming rights ?