News Article: Lebreton...Interesting...NCC - PART 2

[coladin]

This is hyperbole. Where did you get this information? There is absolutely nothing to suggest it. I can confidently say this is not true. Its the number 1 location. Mass transit for both trains intersects right there and its the closest location to Gatineau a completely untapped market. Lots of room to develop around it and already walking distance to Hintonburgh and Little Italy.

Is the NCC making it easy I dont know but we do know that Claridge has a great relationship with them. So maybe its not the most viable due to the NCC but its definitely the best location.

It is not hyperbole. I have had private conversations with the Ottawa gang that have suggested it. If there is a site that is better, and in downtown proper, they will absolutely consider it. But Lebreton is not the home run that many thought it was, and it certainly has lost some of its lustre with the ownership group. Let me put it this way, it has to be a can't miss deal for them to go there, and that isn't what many of them feel at the moment

 

[UglyPuckling]

It is not hyperbole. I have had private conversations with the Ottawa gang that have suggested it. If there is a site that is better, and in downtown proper, they will absolutely consider it. But Lebreton is not the home run that many thought it was, and it certainly has lost some of its lustre with the ownership group. Let me put it this way, it has to be a can't miss deal for them to go there, and that isn't what many of them feel at the moment

Interesting.

I have a question. How are they (the ownership group) defining "Lebreton"? Is it only the current site that the NCC has proposed that is rather small? Or does "Lebreton" include the Bayview Yards?

 

[coladin]

Interesting.

I have a question. How are they (the ownership group) defining "Lebreton"? Is it only the current site that the NCC has proposed that is rather small? Or does "Lebreton" include the Bayview Yards?

Bayview is not "Lebreton" in their eyes as that is a much larger piece of land, and it is city owned land. And I don't think there are any land rights issues there either.

Some of them would like something in the actual downtown core and the mayor has some say there. The feds have some say there.

 

[UglyPuckling]

Bayview is not "Lebreton" in their eyes as that is a much larger piece of land, and it is city owned land. And I don't think there are any land rights issues there either.

Some of them would like something in the actual downtown core and the mayor has some say there. The feds have some say there.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

It sounds like Bayview is still potentially in play then.

I can get the reluctance to the site that has been proposed by the NCC (covered/identified in the current MOU). It's too small to be of interest I'd think. We already saw that reaction when the Reynolds group walked away in the sale process.

 

[coladin]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

It sounds like Bayview is still potentially in play then.

I can get the reluctance to the site that has been proposed by the NCC (covered/identified in the current MOU). It's too small to be of interest I'd think. We already saw that reaction when the Reynolds group walked away in the sale process.

Yeah, definitely too small and not much opportunity to recoup the costs for the Senators onwership group.

Lebreton can be better utlilized for other projects, and they need some sort of attractions there, like the non-Senators bid, Devcore or what was it, rather than an events center that is on a tiny piece of the pie

 

[UglyPuckling]

Yeah, definitely too small and not much opportunity to recoup the costs for the Senators onwership group.

Lebreton can be better utlilized for other projects, and they need some sort of attractions there, like the non-Senators bid, Devcore or what was it, rather than an events center that is on a tiny piece of the pie

Yes, it seems like the other things they do with the land will be important. If they are thinking about the Bayview alternative, I guess the current ownership group will have more control of what is built if they own a decent chunk of land. Would the Bayview land parcel and whatever else the ownership can build be enough, I have no idea. There's lot of details and considerations of course, so all I can do is be a spectator and watch what goes down.

 

[coladin]

Yes, it seems like the other things they do with the land will be important. If they are thinking about the Bayview alternative, I guess the current ownership group will have more control of what is built if they own a decent chunk of land. Would the Bayview land parcel and whatever else the ownership can build be enough, I have no idea. There's lot of details and considerations of course, so all I can do is be a spectator and watch what goes down.

I believe it is more than twice the size

 

[UglyPuckling]

I believe it is more than twice the size

Yes I think so. I think the NCC site was 6 acres (going from memory).

Bayview is 13.5 acres according to the Garrioch quote and article below.

"The site is approximately 13.5 acres, which is close to double the size of LeBreton Flats. It’s well served by light-rail transit from the east and west, plus it’s a transfer station from the south."

GARRIOCH: More space, better transit could make Bayview Yards a contender for Ottawa Senators' new arena

GARRIOCH: More space, better transit could make Bayview Yards a contender for Ottawa Senators' new arena

ottawasun.com

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

I hereby offer a downtown area for, properly reimbursed payout, with my house being the approximate geographic centre of the project - can't risk being on the edge and losing out.

 

[bert]

It is not hyperbole. I have had private conversations with the Ottawa gang that have suggested it. If there is a site that is better, and in downtown proper, they will absolutely consider it. But Lebreton is not the home run that many thought it was, and it certainly has lost some of its lustre with the ownership group. Let me put it this way, it has to be a can't miss deal for them to go there, and that isn't what many of them feel at the moment

Were getting opposite information from the ownership group then. This is where they want to be according to someone connected to the group. Maybe this is leverage you are hearing, I am not sure. However you havent presented one argument to suggest why its a bad site, what other areas have other development potential around it and mass transit. 'Downtown proper' is a strange concept in Ottawa considering the actual downtown is a ghost town and the market is not a destination anymore way too many homeless and crime. The best and most frequented restaurants/bars are between Elgin and Wellington west. Same with the highest density in real estate is Preston and Carling. More units for rent and buy are being built in that area than anywhere else.

 

[DaveMatthew]

The Senators don’t want Lebreton, and I am glad that this ownership group is smart enough to understand why.

The mayor wants it in downtown proper, and the spinoffs could be city changing if done right. It will be totally worth whatever it costs , and the spinoffs, for the city which desperately needs something to revitalize the core. These arenas and “entertainment districts “ actually do work at doing precisely that.

"Downtown proper", as you and the mayor define it, is tiny. Where is there space to build an entire entertainment district?

It's complete pie-in-the-sky thinking and never going to happen.

At best, you'll be able to find a parcel of land to build a building. But that's it. If the ownership group needs a surrounding development to make it work, it's not going to happen in the "core".

 

[DrEasy]

"Downtown proper", as you and the mayor define it, is tiny. Where is there space to build an entire entertainment district?

It's complete pie-in-the-sky thinking and never going to happen.

At best, you'll be able to find a parcel of land to build a building. But that's it. If the ownership group needs a surrounding development to make it work, it's not going to happen in the "core".

I'm not in favor of a rink in "downtown proper", but I could see the argument that if you build it there then you don't need to surround it with an artificial (cough*Lansdowne*cough) entertainment district. It already has all the restaurants, bars, etc.

I can also see the revitalization argument, though dealing with drugs and homelessness would be a better way to handle it than putting lipstick on it.

 

[JD1]

I think they need another block there

East west it's fine. Take out the north side of Gloucester. I don't remember if there's anything there other than very old housing.

$200M to acquire, $100M to demolish. With no opportunities to make money on the surrounding development. Great plan! All while there is a free undeveloped parcel at Lebreton Flats.

Where'd you get the 200, 100 and free from?

 

[JD1]

It is not hyperbole. I have had private conversations with the Ottawa gang that have suggested it. If there is a site that is better, and in downtown proper, they will absolutely consider it. But Lebreton is not the home run that many thought it was, and it certainly has lost some of its lustre with the ownership group. Let me put it this way, it has to be a can't miss deal for them to go there, and that isn't what many of them feel at the moment

And just this week, Bruce published they've extended the timelines at LeBreton. They didn't do that as a result of a burning desire within the Sens team to get 'er gone.

 

[Micklebot]

East west it's fine. Take out the north side of Gloucester. I don't remember if there's anything there other than very old housing.


Where'd you get the 200, 100 and free from?

Source: Pooma

 

[JD1]

Source: Pooma

Should be lots of room then to store new inaccurate information

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

"Downtown proper", as you and the mayor define it, is tiny. Where is there space to build an entire entertainment district?

It's complete pie-in-the-sky thinking and never going to happen.

At best, you'll be able to find a parcel of land to build a building. But that's it. If the ownership group needs a surrounding development to make it work, it's not going to happen in the "core".

That is what was said when the Devils announced the location for their new arena in Newark. The location was crime ridden, lots of abandoned rundown building… it’s now totally revitalised.

 

[Beech]

guys, get on tsn1200, Friday the 24 (Nov, 2023). Get the info from the Mayors mouth. Tune in 7 am - 8 am. It is the most info packed.

The Feds are bugging out. He threw numbers out that are startling.. effectively, Ottawa's downtown is nothing more than a Federal government office complex. And soon could be a ghost town.

Sutcliff knows the shit that is flying..

Between the LRT and the bugging out, the city will be so f'ed. We will be pregnant.

The F'ng LRT was to get the Federallies to their jobs during the day. Now, they are at home.. So, a white elephant with cost over-runs and a white elephant in terms of office space.

By the way.. In August, they testes the LRT to the intended station in River Side South.. I am cycling on Earl Armstrong east of Limebank, open area.. I see it coming.. It passes. About 100 M south of me.

OOOHHHHWAAAH... 1) it screeches and screams like a banshee 2) it wobbles enough, a pregnant women is sure have her water burst.

What the F, did we pay for????

And now, it will run, half empty...

Thank you Jimbo!!!!

 

[pt_mck]

That is what was said when the Devils announced the location for their new arena in Newark. The location was crime ridden, lots of abandoned rundown building… it’s now totally revitalised.

true, build it and they will come

downtown is dying and needs a plan, this could be a centrepiece

 

[UglyPuckling]

That is what was said when the Devils announced the location for their new arena in Newark. The location was crime ridden, lots of abandoned rundown building… it’s now totally revitalised.

Not sure which areas you are thinking about. To the east is the business district with office towers where people work. Those buildings have been there for awhile (Prudential Center was built in 2007). Penn Station (a dump) is nearby. There's the Ironbound district (east & south I'd say of the Prudential Center) that has quite a few restaurants within the older buildings there. Inner city areas in Newark are like most U.S. cities and are really kind of hit & miss. Thankfully I'd say downtown Ottawa is not as bad and has much higher or better starting point than Newark. At least these were my impressions based on my time there.

 

[coladin]

Were getting opposite information from the ownership group then. This is where they want to be according to someone connected to the group. Maybe this is leverage you are hearing, I am not sure. However you havent presented one argument to suggest why its a bad site, what other areas have other development potential around it and mass transit. 'Downtown proper' is a strange concept in Ottawa considering the actual downtown is a ghost town and the market is not a destination anymore way too many homeless and crime. The best and most frequented restaurants/bars are between Elgin and Wellington west. Same with the highest density in real estate is Preston and Carling. More units for rent and buy are being built in that area than anywhere else.

I don't know, but if you have someone better than Neil Malhotra , then I am all ears. He told me back in June or July. Things can change, but building and development costs are still what they are, and cleanup costs are what they are, and labour/material costs are still high and/or climbing.

I don't know if it is a leverage play or not. I know the mayor wants to fix Ottawa's ghost town downtown core. There are a lot of empty buildings and they would have to see what is realisitic and what isn't.

I would prefer Bayview if they had to go in that direction. They can build other entertainment avenues there and probably quicker, and better served. Plus it is city land, less headaches

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Not sure which areas you are thinking about. To the east is the business district with office towers where people work. Those buildings have been there for awhile (Prudential Center was built in 2007). Penn Station (a dump) is nearby. There's the Ironbound district (east & south I'd say of the Prudential Center) that has quite a few restaurants within the older buildings there. Inner city areas in Newark are like most U.S. cities and are really kind of hit & miss. Thankfully I'd say downtown Ottawa is not as bad and has much higher or better starting point than Newark. At least these were my impressions based on my time there.

So let’s not wait until the downtown core deteriorates and gets close to the point where Newark was at the time.

 

[Relapsing]

Looking at the Bayview site again, (which to me is such a great option for it's easy transit integration), and I'm going pie-in-the-sky. I have no direct sources,

Green: The overall Bayview site, including a City Parking Office at 185 Slidell St. This lot especially would have unreal views of the river

Orange: Tom Brown Arena and it's field. A new sensplex with mixed used residential/commercial?

Blue: A Canadian Heritage building, if the feds could be convinced to part with it.

Purple: Merkley Supply: the true wild card. A private company. Can they be convinced to part ways?

If Canada Heritage and Merkley are every in play, I think that's a really interesting development opportunity.

I've left out the Bayview Yards location because I think they'd welcome integrated development and access to more office spaces. That's as close to insider knowledge as I have on this board.

To the east of all this, there's Laroche park, which the City has put what I'm sure is a good amount of into, and a place of worship, so I figure that's the extent of it.

I think the NCC has the land West of the LRT line earmarked for Parks... it would be neat to extend the N/S line station north into a bit more development, but there's a pretty big grade separation between that parcel and Bayview on the north side, and idk how to facilitate road access... maybe a pedestrian-friendly development with emergency access from the Parkway? Heck, I didn't show it on the map, but toss in part of Scott St to the west of Bayview as well for a little bit extra too.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Ottawa Senators studying options for new rink as talks on lease at LeBreton Flats continue

Will the Ottawa Senators stay at the Canadian Tire Centre or will they make a decision in 2024 that they're headed downtown?

ottawasun.com

“We’re going to do some work in the parking lots to try to get people in and out faster


Well the only way that is done, is to relocate the access roads, to the parking lots, to the out side perimeter of the lots, and eliminate the vehicle vs pedestrian conflict between the parking lot and the CTC that happens before and after every single game…….

The idiot(s) who designed the parking lots at the CTC that forces the vehicle vs pedestrian interaction should be sought out and jailed.

 

[SanderSen]

Ottawa Senators studying options for new rink as talks on lease at LeBreton Flats continue

Will the Ottawa Senators stay at the Canadian Tire Centre or will they make a decision in 2024 that they're headed downtown?

ottawasun.com

“We’re going to do some work in the parking lots to try to get people in and out faster


Well the only way that is done, is to relocate the access roads, to the parking lots, to the out side perimeter of the lots, and eliminate the vehicle vs pedestrian conflict between the parking lot and the CTC that happens before and after every single game…….

The idiot(s) who designed the parking lots at the CTC that forces the vehicle vs pedestrian interaction should be sought out and jailed.

It is just unbelievable that it was a greenfield development and the parking lots chosen were pod and congestion design. And over the years lots I used to get there early for have been taken away from general parking so the options have gotten lousier. With the highway improvements heading east driving there is much better than when it opened but the parking lots remain ugly.