News Article: Lebreton...Interesting...NCC - PART 2

[Golden_Jet]

I suppose it depends on what their priorities are, just off the top of my head, they all seem to offer something a bit different.

Hurdman pros:
Lots of space for both arena and additional development
On Transit and very close to the highway.
Adjacent to downtown, but it's a longish walk.

Lebreton Pros:
Potentially lots of room for both arena and additional development
Closer to downtown than Hurdman, and some already developed areas, but not quite a hub of activity, long walk to typical hubs but at least there's some options close by and on route.
On transit, but not the highway.

L'esplanade Pros:
Enough room for an arena but not for additional development
Fairly central
Close to transit and to highway, but not quite right on either

101 Colonel By Pros:
Enough space for an arena, but not for additional development
Centrally located downtown,
Right on Transit, good access to the highway with Nicolas.

Bayview Yards
Lots of space for both arena and additional development
On Transit but not the highway.
Adjacent to downtown, but not walkable.

Not large enough footprint.
Canadian Tire centre building is about 6.7 acres. Need a bigger building for larger concourses. So more than 6.7.


We already know LeBreton at 6.5 ish they said is too small, but NCC open to discussing bigger parcel.

101 Colonel By 5 acres, too small.
L’Esplanade someone posted about 3.5 acres in size, too small.

Hurdman, not a good spot, nothing around.

 

[Micklebot]

Not large enough footprint.
Canadian Tire centre building is about 6.7 acres. Need a bigger building for larger concourses. So more than 6.7.


We already know LeBreton at 6.5 ish they said is too small, but NCC open to discussing bigger parcel.

101 Colonel By 5 acres, too small.
L’Esplanade someone posted about 3.5 acres in size, too small.

Hurdman, not a good spot, nothing around.

Colonel by would be about the same size as USB arena in NY, when people talk about l'espanade, I believe the idea is to also buy out the block next to it, but I don't know how feasible that is. They are both about as small as a plot can get and still fit a modern arena, the bigger issue imo is the additional things the team will want like commercial space and potentially a hotel.

Wrt nothing around Hurdman, do you want things around it as a developer? If the goal is to develop the next hotspot, one could argue it's a selling point to be close enough rather than in the thick of current hot spots. In the mean time, It's close enough that people can easily get to something via train or uber, 3 km to Elgin street or the market. 3.5 to to summerset or Sparks street. Lebreton is certainly a bit closer, especially to sparks street, but lets not pretend it's like putting it at Coventry or leaving it in Kanata.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Colonel by would be about the same size as USB arena in NY, when people talk about l'espanade, I believe the idea is to also buy out the block next to it, but I don't know how feasible that is. They are both about as small as a plot can get and still fit a modern arena, the bigger issue imo is the additional things the team will want like commercial space and potentially a hotel.

Wrt nothing around Hurdman, do you want things around it as a developer? If the goal is to develop the next hotspot, one could argue it's a selling point to be close enough rather than in the thick of current hot spots. In the mean time, It's close enough that people can easily get to something via train or uber, 3 km to Elgin street or the market. 3.5 to to summerset or Sparks street. Lebreton is certainly a bit closer, especially to sparks street, but lets not pretend it's like putting it at Coventry or leaving it in Kanata.

No, colonel by is a smaller plot, currently smaller than CTC footprint, great location if can get some more land.
CTC is 630,000 square feet
UBC 690,000 square feet, but sits on 43 acre plot of land.

 

[JD1]

I'd study taking out the north side of Gloucester and building at lesplanade. A hotel can go on the top of the arena.

Bottom line is there's nowhere downtown it can go without taking out existing properties

 

[Cosmix]

Does anyone have access to NHL arena information showing the locations of them and the enmities surrounding them at the time they were built?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I suppose it depends on what their priorities are, just off the top of my head, they all seem to offer something a bit different.

Hurdman pros:
Lots of space for both arena and additional development
On Transit and very close to the highway.
Adjacent to downtown, but it's a longish walk.

Lebreton Pros:
Potentially lots of room for both arena and additional development
Closer to downtown than Hurdman, and some already developed areas, but not quite a hub of activity, long walk to typical hubs but at least there's some options close by and on route.
On transit, but not the highway.

L'esplanade Pros:
Enough room for an arena but not for additional development
Fairly central
Close to transit and to highway, but not quite right on either

101 Colonel By Pros:
Enough space for an arena, but not for additional development
Centrally located downtown,
Right on Transit, good access to the highway with Nicolas.

Bayview Yards
Lots of space for both arena and additional development
On Transit but not the highway.
Adjacent to downtown, but not walkable.

where ever the New Arena is located, being close to “the Highway” is not a determining factor for the Senators. The plan to move to a central location is also tied to being tied into the LRT system, as the original Rendezvous Lebreton plan showed, when it only had approximately 500 parking spots designated mostly for employees, and services, not for game day parking.

Yes new ownership will have a different outlook on what they want in a downtown location….. but doubt very much that many current NHL arenas, located in downtown, have sprawling parking lots… just not viable for a downtown location …. Sure there could be underground parking, for an added construction cost I suppose, and if studies show that there is a need for more 24/7 parking in the downtown area, it could be a consideration,

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Does anyone have access to NHL arena information showing the locations of them and the enmities surrounding them at the time they were built?

NyQuil posted this map a few months ago, in this thread….. comparing other NHL arenas locations vs where the CTC is

 

[Micklebot]

where ever the New Arena is located, being close to “the Highway” is not a determining factor for the Senators. The plan to move to a central location is also tied to being tied into the LRT system, as the original Rendezvous Lebreton plan showed, when it only had approximately 500 parking spots designated mostly for employees, and services, not for game day parking.

Yes new ownership will have a different outlook on what they want in a downtown location….. but doubt very much that many current NHL arenas, located in downtown, have sprawling parking lots… just not viable for a downtown location …. Sure there could be underground parking, for an added construction cost I suppose, and if studies show that there is a need for more 24/7 parking in the downtown area, it could be a consideration,

Downtown doesn't need sprawling parking because there is already parking infrastructure there, from city hall, to the NAC to the numerous other parking options, the proximity to the highway isn't as key when you're expecting most people to use transit, but it's still a positive attribute when it's there.

 

[Masked]

Downtown doesn't need sprawling parking because there is already parking infrastructure there, from city hall, to the NAC to the numerous other parking options, the proximity to the highway isn't as key when you're expecting most people to use transit, but it's still a positive attribute when it's there.

Most NHL arenas are in close proximity to a highway. .Cities with much better public transit than Ottawa, like Toronto or Montreal, have their arenas right next to highways.

Bruce Firestone wrote a piece that's been widely circulated on here in the past about what an NHL arena requires regarding people getting there and it was either a highway or a heavy rail system. I don't think Ottawa's LRT has heavy rail capacity.

 

[Micklebot]

Most NHL arenas are in close proximity to a highway. .Cities with much better public transit than Ottawa, like Toronto or Montreal, have their arenas right next to highways.

Bruce Firestone wrote a piece that's been widely circulated on here in the past about what an NHL arena requires regarding people getting there and it was either a highway or a heavy rail system. I don't think Ottawa's LRT has heavy rail capacity.

The Bruce Firestone article compared Ottawa's transit (buses at the time) to Toronto and MTL, which he was saying they could move 20-30k pph, while Ottawa at the time would have been around 10k via buses. He suggested he would never even consider driving to the arena in MTL.

The LRT can currently to do up to 21.4k pph (10.7 each way), well, when it works... according to their website. Trillium line would add another 1300 or so in one direction only. If needed, you could further supplement that with bus service.

 

[Spotlight]

Not large enough footprint.
Canadian Tire centre building is about 6.7 acres. Need a bigger building for larger concourses. So more than 6.7.


We already know LeBreton at 6.5 ish they said is too small, but NCC open to discussing bigger parcel.

101 Colonel By 5 acres, too small.
L’Esplanade someone posted about 3.5 acres in size, too small.

Hurdman, not a good spot, nothing around.

I'm not sure where you're getting you're info on the CTC being 6.7 acres but the CTC is 5 acres currently and it's built with a seat slope that is considered very wide. There are new ways to build seat bowls that have a more compact or narrower slope which means it needs less overall build space without impacting having considerable concessions etc...

they're saying Lebreton at 6.5 acres is too small not because the Arena can't fit in it (we saw the renders that it can fit, it's because they want to build an entertainment district with residential, hotels, retail/commercial around it to make it a better destination and in their control. (which i'm all for and glad to hear that Lebreton and the NCC are open to even more space so that they can build out something great. (hopefully the fact Malhottra from Claridge is on the ownership group won't mean we get crap design like they do for all Claridge buildings)

The reason they also want to be able to build all the extra stuff is to maximize the amount of revenue they can make on the entire development (without having to ask the city and the province for money)

Lebreton really does offer the best of both worlds as long as the NCC is willing to play ball and give them the space they want and the location they want (as close to an actual LRT station as possible)

Hurdman is a horrible location, case closed, the Mayor keeps bringing this one up for a couple of reasons, first, there's nothing there and this gives the city an easy plan for the land that no one wants. Second, it's close to the baseball stadium + highway + transit and they think that's all it takes. Hurdman would be the biggest mistake ever (after the current Kanata location)

101 Colonel By is a perfect spot, but only the arena itself would be able to fit with maybe a hotel/residential tower but nothing more which means they can't generate much revenue which means they would need the city and or province to come in and that won't happen. The feds would also have to move faster than they've ever moved on a project to vacate the building and we all know that's not gonna happen.


L'esplenade is not as great even if it's smack downtown, it's further from an LRT station than 101 Colonel By is, and it's even small so this one would have nothing more at all not even a hotel or residential as a possibility, so this won't work financially at all.

 

[Cosmix]

NyQuil posted this map a few months ago, in this thread….. comparing other NHL arenas locations vs where the CTC is

View attachment 822639

Thanks. Very interesting info.

 

[coladin]

Hurdman is an empty canvass, with unrivalled access from all types of transportation. They could even develop the waterfront. Established neighborhoods with established businesses. 7 mins to the Market. And everyone can get to it whether from Quebec or all neighborhoods. No territorial issues. Trainyards nearby.

Not a sexy location, but easy and in a city with terrible transit, a dream location

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hurdman is an empty canvass, with unrivalled access from all types of transportation. They could even develop the waterfront. Established neighborhoods with established businesses. 7 mins to the Market. And everyone can get to it whether from Quebec or all neighborhoods. No territorial issues. Trainyards nearby.

Not a sexy location, but easy and in a city with terrible transit, a dream location

That’s probably at or near the bottom of the choices.

 

[Crosside]

Leeder: LeBreton Flats isn't the only option for a new arena

Senators CEO Cyril Leeder on the Sens partnering with the NLL, new sports franchises in Ottawa, Game Day changes at Sens games and update on a new Sens arena.

www.tsn.ca

 

[coladin]

That’s probably at or near the bottom of the choices.

Who knows , maybe. But it is the smartest location, and thebshit theyncan build in that giant area would be something else , and waterfront to boot

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Who knows , maybe. But it is the smartest location, and thebshit theyncan build in that giant area would be something else , and waterfront to boot

Is it too far away from the nearest LRT station?

 

[Micklebot]

It is too far away from the nearest LRT station…. View attachment 824162

Do you not see the little red o in the middle of your map? Or the one just across the river at Lees campus?

 

[Micklebot]

Who knows , maybe. But it is the smartest location, and thebshit theyncan build in that giant area would be something else , and waterfront to boot

I'm not sold on Hurdman, but if they did build there, it's got a ton of development potential

That’s probably at or near the bottom of the choices.

I'd say Coventry rd would be lower, not sure what Bayview offers over it either. Anything further east or west than those two is probably a non-starter.

 

[Big Muddy]

Do you not see the little red o in the middle of your map? Or the one just across the river at Lees campus?

Yep, his blue dot route terminated at the intercity Via Rail train station versus the LRT station.

 

[bert]

I'm not sure where you're getting you're info on the CTC being 6.7 acres but the CTC is 5 acres currently and it's built with a seat slope that is considered very wide. There are new ways to build seat bowls that have a more compact or narrower slope which means it needs less overall build space without impacting having considerable concessions etc...

they're saying Lebreton at 6.5 acres is too small not because the Arena can't fit in it (we saw the renders that it can fit, it's because they want to build an entertainment district with residential, hotels, retail/commercial around it to make it a better destination and in their control. (which i'm all for and glad to hear that Lebreton and the NCC are open to even more space so that they can build out something great. (hopefully the fact Malhottra from Claridge is on the ownership group won't mean we get crap design like they do for all Claridge buildings)

The reason they also want to be able to build all the extra stuff is to maximize the amount of revenue they can make on the entire development (without having to ask the city and the province for money)

Lebreton really does offer the best of both worlds as long as the NCC is willing to play ball and give them the space they want and the location they want (as close to an actual LRT station as possible)

Hurdman is a horrible location, case closed, the Mayor keeps bringing this one up for a couple of reasons, first, there's nothing there and this gives the city an easy plan for the land that no one wants. Second, it's close to the baseball stadium + highway + transit and they think that's all it takes. Hurdman would be the biggest mistake ever (after the current Kanata location)

101 Colonel By is a perfect spot, but only the arena itself would be able to fit with maybe a hotel/residential tower but nothing more which means they can't generate much revenue which means they would need the city and or province to come in and that won't happen. The feds would also have to move faster than they've ever moved on a project to vacate the building and we all know that's not gonna happen.


L'esplenade is not as great even if it's smack downtown, it's further from an LRT station than 101 Colonel By is, and it's even small so this one would have nothing more at all not even a hotel or residential as a possibility, so this won't work financially at all.

Bingo it's going to be Lebreton or Bayview. Great post.

 

[Micklebot]

Yep, his blue dot route terminated at the intercity Via Rail train station versus the LRT station.

To be fair, that would probably help out for games against the leafs...

 

[bert]

That’s probably at or near the bottom of the choices.

May as well keep it in Kanata. No one that likes this team can possibly want it to be at Hurdman. There's nothing there it's a terrible idea.

I've been to 16 different arenas. You want to be close to entertainment. A lively central part of the city. It's very important for the future of the franchise they don't blow this.

 

[Micklebot]

Bingo it's going to be Lebreton or Bayview. Great post.

What do people see in Bayview as an option? I really don't get the appeal

 

[bert]

What do people see in Bayview as an option? I really don't get the appeal

It's right beside lebreton...... the only place the North South and East West Transit meets. Closer to hintonburg equal distance to little Italy as Lebreton. Close to Quebec. It's my number 1 choice personally. Only second to lebreton. They are the only real choices.