Recalled/Assigned: Leafs Loan Rasmus Sandin to Marlies | Re-Call Kevin Gravel

[Terrible GM]

Sandin is clearly good enough for the NHL but Babcock is doing a terrible job with his development

How is he doing a terrible job with his development?

 

[thewave]

How is he doing a terrible job with his development?

Being responsible is now bad

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

No, he is saving his development. The guy is not overly quick for his size. He got lined up, in a PO he will get wrecked. He is not ready and people with your opinion will have him in on the IR. NHL PO is play for keeps

The playoffs are over 75 games away so what exactly is your fear? Players will get hit in professional hockey regardless of what league he's in

 

[Suntouchable13]

Gravel, Marincin, and Holl is the kinda crap we have circulating in our bottom pair now. Not sure if other teams have better or the same or worse. Not sure what should I be expecting out of the bottom pair D.

 

[thewave]

The playoffs are over 75 games away so what exactly is your fear? Players will get hit in professional hockey regardless of what league he's in

He hasn't looked good in a 360 degree sorta way.

 

[CelticDruid]

I feel like Gravel is gonna get unnecessary hate just because he was the guy who got called up for Sandin.

Gravel was extremely solid in the pre-season and adds some much needed attitude in the back end.

I just wished it wasn’t for Sandin

That's an over the top statement.

Maybe if you had in a hockey pool, but for hockey purposes it makes perfect sense.

 

[biotk]

You just said he shouldn't play another game in the NHL this season. You're starting to confuse me.

I don't know why that confuses you. I am not saying that Sandin is not good enough to play in the NHL right. I am saying that based on the circumstances in which he can play in the NHL he shouldn't.

These are two very different points which are both correct:

1) Sandin is good enough to play in the NHL. He has dominated the AHL. He has a very high IQ.

2) Sandin, however, is a member of the Leafs' organization. The NHL team in that organization is coached by a guy who has allowed Sandin an average of 12 minutes a game over 6 games. Who will not play him on special teams. Who leaves him on the bench for absurdly long stretches of time, especially when the game is tied or the Leafs' have a lead. That is fine of D in their mid-20s or older who have essentially no potential of being anything more than 3rd pairing fill in D. It is not fine for young Ds who the team expects to fill top-4 roles in the NHL. I have gone over (on this forum) the development path of every top-4 D in the NHL last year. The few who played the kind of limited minutes that Sandin has played in the year of their NHL debut were quickly sent down for a year or two. There has simply not a top-4 D in the NHL who was developed by playing minimal minutes of sheltered hockey in the NHL at a young age. Tons of top-4 D were playing in the NHL at Sandin's age or younger, but all were either playing lots or they were sent down.

Dermott has played 16 or 17 minutes of very sheltered 3rd pairing minutes over his two NHL seasons. While that is a lot more minutes than Sandin was getting, it is also not similar to any current top-4 D who entered the NHL at a young age (although there were a couple top-4 D last year who entered the NHL getting similar deployment, but they were all older, had played many years of big minutes of pro hockey elsewhere, and were not generally expected to become top-4 D). And while Dermott was improving very rapidly in the AHL and pushed himself onto the Leafs' roster there is also little evidence that Dermott has improved much, if at all, since entering the NHL.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

No, he is saving his development. The guy is not overly quick for his size. He got lined up, in a PO he will get wrecked. He is not ready and people with your opinion will have him in on the IR. NHL PO is play for keeps

So what if he got wrecked, he got up didn't he? I've seen bigger players get wrecked and not be able to shake it off like Sandin. Hits in hockey happen.

The kid is ready, I don't get this let him play 25 minutes against AHL competition instead of instead of playing 12 minutes against NHL competition. If any of the top four are struggling during a game, he can always be moved up and play more minutes. Other teams start their young forwards out on the third line and defenseman out on the third pairings. The kid is calm under pressure and is able to fit the puck in those tight spaces. If he is outplaying veterans than he should stay.

 

[Future]

Can we send down our head coach to the Marlies instead?

 

[ShaneFalco]

I like this move

 

[ShaneFalco]

Gravel, Marincin, and Holl is the kinda crap we have circulating in our bottom pair now. Not sure if other teams have better or the same or worse. Not sure what should I be expecting out of the bottom pair D.

I don’t think any of them are bad players and They have some size and jam

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

Gave him a taste of the big league. it was obvious he will be an NHL player but has some things to iron out. 25 mins in the AHL may be more beneficial than 12 mins to work on things.

I guess I'm the only one who has been slightly impressed with Holl (given the extremely low expectations)

 

[OVO16]

I don’t think any of them are bad players and They have some size and jam

Marincin has no Jam. I’ve seen Sandin throw more body checks than Marincin.

Holl is 50/50. Could use his size a lot more of he could but he doesn’t

Gravel is the only one who actually uses that size and grit. He should be playing over Marincin at the very least.

Marincin is never leaving the leafs is he

 

[biotk]

The organization certainly knew before the season started that you wouldn't get him on the PP. They certainly knew before the season that you wouldn't get him on the PK. They certainly knew before the season that on a real good night you might allow him on the ice for 14 minutes. They certainly knew that the deployment he was going to get under Babcock would be worse for his development than sending him down.

The organization should know nothing now that they didn't know before the season opener. So why was he on the roster in the first place? Completely irresponsible development of the team's best prospect.

CJ has also said that barring a string of injuries the Leafs' plan appears to be to not recall him to the NHL this season. (which is finally the responsible position).​

 

[Leafidelity]

Yiiikes. Might as well just give the 3rd pair shovels, because nobody left is much with the puck on their stick.

We might have the worst 3rd d pair in the entire NHL at the moment. Hope I'm wrong.

Hurry back Dermott.

 

[Green Snow Storm]

Sandin really stuggled the last couple of games. Would rather him get 25 minutes with the Marlies than 12 minutes with the Leafs

I agree with the sentiment. The thing is there's been games where he has been one of our best defencemen. Every young dman struggles, I'm not sure the AHL is the right place for Sandin, but it won't hurt him in the long run. He's too smart a player.

 

[Advanced stats]

So why was he on the roster in the first place? Completely irresponsible development of the team's best prospect.

What's wrong with giving him a taste of the NHL? A sort of reward for a very impressive training camp.

 

[Stephen]

The organization certainly knew before the season started that you wouldn't get him on the PP. They certainly knew before the season that you wouldn't get him on the PK. They certainly knew before the season that on a real good night you might allow him on the ice for 14 minutes. They certainly knew that the deployment he was going to get under Babcock would be worse for his development than sending him down.

The organization should know nothing now that they didn't know before the season opener. So why was he on the roster in the first place? Completely irresponsible development of the team's best prospect.

CJ has also said that barring a string of injuries the Leafs' plan appears to be to not recall him to the NHL this season. (which is finally the responsible position).​

Sandin had a nice week and a half taste of the NHL and now has a sense of what it will take to make it permanently while working towards that in the AHL. Not sure why you're being so fatalistic about this.

 

[Kiwi]

Sandin is important to the future, if sending the kid to the Marlies is the best thing for his development he should be sent down

There's nothing wrong with him playing 25 minutes a night in all situations with Liljegren and the Marlies rather than 10 minutes with the Leafs

 

[FlareKnight]

Sandin had a nice week and a half taste of the NHL and now has a sense of what it will take to make it permanently while working towards that in the AHL. Not sure why you're being so fatalistic about this.

Yeah, he knows what it will take...being exactly what he is right now. He's not going down because he isn't good enough to play in the NHL. What it will take to make it permanently is one or more of Muzzin, Barrie, Rielly, or Dermott being ejected from the team. All it will take is waiting until next year when the cap crunch eliminates at least one or two of those guys from the roster.

It's not a disastrous move. He'll get some work done. But our blueline is worse for it. All he would have learned is that he's already good enough and just has to bide his time for guys to leave the team.

 

[thewave]

Fully agree with this. I said so before the season start. I was simply proven right in the end but more importantly, I now agree it was good to give him a taste and let him fail. He can now go back play 20mins and refine his game.

 

[crump]

Kid got a taste, showed him where he needs to strengthen. Gravel, Holl and Marincin can scrap it out to see who stays once Dermott returns.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Marincin has no Jam. I’ve seen Sandin throw more body checks than Marincin.

Holl is 50/50. Could use his size a lot more of he could but he doesn’t

Gravel is the only one who actually uses that size and grit. He should be playing over Marincin at the very least.

Marincin is never leaving the leafs is he

Marincin has one of the longest reaches and is best suited to use his stick to defend. Marincin throws his body around when needed.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

I was hoping to see:

Rielly - Dermott*
Muzzin - Barrie
Sandin - Ceci

OR

Rielly - Muzzin*
Dermott - Barrie
Sandin - Ceci

But I guess not

 

[Stephen]

Yeah, he knows what it will take...being exactly what he is right now. He's not going down because he isn't good enough to play in the NHL. What it will take to make it permanently is one or more of Muzzin, Barrie, Rielly, or Dermott being ejected from the team. All it will take is waiting until next year when the cap crunch eliminates at least one or two of those guys from the roster.

It's not a disastrous move. He'll get some work done. But our blueline is worse for it. All he would have learned is that he's already good enough and just has to bide his time for guys to leave the team.

Giving rookies a taste of the NHL before sending them back to juniors or the AHL for further seasoning is pretty standard practice.

In many cases, first round prospects may be the slightly better option than your bottom pairing or 4th line option, but the responsible teams don't keep guys up with the big team because the kids should get reps in the bigger roles you envision them in eventually.

Also, the NHL game just gets harder as the season goes on, so you don't want the prospects falling behind in play.