Rumor: Leafs interested in Bert + DET interested in Hyman? 1st post updated

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And with this... I mean, you can be justified in wanting David Clarkson half a decade ago. It was a mirage, but he did pot 30. Zach Hyman is David Clarkson without a 30 goal season. I have negative interest in him and if you're signing him for five hoping to dump him off somewhere at 3... I think that's a huge mistake. His numbers are going to crater when he's not on Toronto. Even if he's no worse a player and he still grinds, he's exactly like what Helm and Abby were for us. If you're proposing signing Hyman to that kind of contract... you better not have been screaming bloody murder about how bad Helm and Abdelkader's contracts were.

 

[MBH]

And with this... I mean, you can be justified in wanting David Clarkson half a decade ago. It was a mirage, but he did pot 30. Zach Hyman is David Clarkson without a 30 goal season. I have negative interest in him and if you're signing him for five hoping to dump him off somewhere at 3... I think that's a huge mistake. His numbers are going to crater when he's not on Toronto. Even if he's no worse a player and he still grinds, he's exactly like what Helm and Abby were for us. If you're proposing signing Hyman to that kind of contract... you better not have been screaming bloody murder about how bad Helm and Abdelkader's contracts were.

I can almost guarantee you there's no daylight between Wings' fans who hated the Abby contract on day one and the people who are staunchly opposed to trading for Hyman.. with the exception of perhaps a Wolverine slappy.

 

[r0bert8841]

In what world are this many teams interested in Zach Hyman? That is insanity.

 

[DInTheB]

 

[jkutswings]

Zero interest in Hyman for anywhere near that commitment.

And if Bertuzzi could somehow land me Kotkianemi, I'd pack Tyler's bags myself. A 6'2" center that is only 21 and has room to grow on offense? Yes please.

 

[golffuul]

Leave it to Kenny to overpay for a middle 6 forward

 

[NickH8]

Oh Ken

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Guess Bert's gonna wanna get paid (assuming Hyman gets overpaid) = Bert's gone.

 

[Ricelund]

Edmonton needs a piano puller!

 

[DInTheB]

Guess Bert's gonna wanna get paid (assuming Hyman gets overpaid) = Bert's gone.

Yep. This is going to factor in to his negotiations, injuries be damned. And he should want similar money. We just shouldn’t be the ones to pay him.

 

[ShelbyZ]

I would hope Yzerman learned his lesson on contracts to those types of guys with Ryan Callahan.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I would hope Yzerman learned his lesson on contracts to those types of guys with Ryan Callahan.

Man, I thought Callahan had a better career than he did. I was about to say... at least Callahan was once good. But man, his contract with Tampa was bad....

 

[Bench]

Leave it to Kenny to overpay for a middle 6 forward

All the jokes about Holland got so stale and predictable, but he's still doing it. It's wild.

The retreads like AA and Green that offered nothing. The loyalty deals. The overvaluing of veteran leadership. And now, if true, going all-in on Abdelkader 2.0.

Old dog, same tricks. He's not a disaster GM or a dumb guy, he's actually a thoughtful hockey guy and runs a good ship... And that's the most frustrating part because he can't seem to recognize his Achilles heel.

Have you ever worked on a project and NEEDED that friend/coworker to rein you in? To challenge your work and make sure you weren't falling into your usual shortcomings? The guy that lets you know when you're making a misstep and need to tweak something.

I feel like Holland needs that guy with him. Someone who can challenge him and say, "I get what you're going for, but is this our best option?"

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

 

[golffuul]

All the jokes about Holland got so stale and predictable, but he's still doing it. It's wild.

The retreads like AA and Green that offered nothing. The loyalty deals. The overvaluing of veteran leadership. And now, if true, going all-in on Abdelkader 2.0.

Old dog, same tricks. He's not a disaster GM or a dumb guy, he's actually a thoughtful hockey guy and runs a good ship... And that's the most frustrating part because he can't seem to recognize his Achilles heel.

Have you ever worked on a project and NEEDED that friend/coworker to reign you in? To challenge your work and make sure you weren't falling into your usual shortcomings? The guy that lets you know when you're making a misstep and need to tweak something.

I feel like Holland needs that guy with him. Someone who can challenge him and say, "I get what you're going for, but is this our best option?"

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

Yeah. It's pretty incredible that Edmonton couldn't see some of the problems that Kenny had after 2012 and just keep someone in his ear about it. But hey, Edmonton's been pretty blind about it's own issues for so long, I'm not even sure they realize what's going on any more.

 

[Henkka]

Guess Bert's gonna wanna get paid (assuming Hyman gets overpaid) = Bert's gone.

Would love to see Hyman get overpaid.

Then would love to see Bertuzzi get a bargain deal.

And Yzerman trades this bargain deal with a HUGE return. Because it's a bargain.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

All the jokes about Holland got so stale and predictable, but he's still doing it. It's wild.

The retreads like AA and Green that offered nothing. The loyalty deals. The overvaluing of veteran leadership. And now, if true, going all-in on Abdelkader 2.0.

Old dog, same tricks. He's not a disaster GM or a dumb guy, he's actually a thoughtful hockey guy and runs a good ship... And that's the most frustrating part because he can't seem to recognize his Achilles heel.

Have you ever worked on a project and NEEDED that friend/coworker to reign you in? To challenge your work and make sure you weren't falling into your usual shortcomings? The guy that lets you know when you're making a misstep and need to tweak something.

I feel like Holland needs that guy with him. Someone who can challenge him and say, "I get what you're going for, but is this our best option?"

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

I think what we're forgetting about is that Detroit suffered a major brain drain at the executive level following that 2008 cup.

We had...

Devellano, Jim Nill, Joe McDonnell, Jim Bedard, Scotty Bowman, Steve Yzerman and Hakan Andersson
We lost Nill and McDonnell to the Stars who have had slightly mixed but mostly good results. Then Bedard was behind them shortly. Bowman left Detroit as a consultant to help his son Stan out in Chicago. Yzerman left in 2010 to take the reigns of Tampa.
Leftover: Hakan and Devellano as Detroit's most senior and skilled braintrust. Incoming promotion for Ryan Martin I have to wonder why he's still there. Also incoming after Nill and McDonnel leave is our beloved Tyler Wright. A few years as a development coach (believe it or not) and then 2 years of experience as director of scouting for the bluejackets from 2011 to 2013 before taking over in Detroit. The 2 best players he drafted were Josh Anderson and Boone Jenner in Columbus. And during the years that he was a development coach in Columbus they kinda...sucked.

Coaching staff was Babcock, Paul McLean, Todd McLellan.
McLean and McLellan went on to become very successful coaches in the NHL. The assistants that Babcock replaced them with were B level or worse. Remember Tom Renney and Bill "likes to throw the N word around" Peters? Or Jim Hiller and Tony Granato? Awesome strategists there. We got Blashill out of the deal, though!

I think Holland was more a collaborator in Detroit than we realize during the successful days. After the support apparatus around him left town that's when things started to go cattywompus. The smartest guys in the room all left and Holland didn't have anyone he could ask for a second or third opinion, and there wasn't anyone there telling him that Stephen Weiss or Dave Legwand would be a bad addition. Or that firing your coach is always an option.

 

[jkutswings]

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

And this is how salary structure dies. With thunderous applause.

 

[Ricelund]

All the jokes about Holland got so stale and predictable, but he's still doing it. It's wild.

The retreads like AA and Green that offered nothing. The loyalty deals. The overvaluing of veteran leadership. And now, if true, going all-in on Abdelkader 2.0.

Old dog, same tricks. He's not a disaster GM or a dumb guy, he's actually a thoughtful hockey guy and runs a good ship... And that's the most frustrating part because he can't seem to recognize his Achilles heel.

Have you ever worked on a project and NEEDED that friend/coworker to rein you in? To challenge your work and make sure you weren't falling into your usual shortcomings? The guy that lets you know when you're making a misstep and need to tweak something.

I feel like Holland needs that guy with him. Someone who can challenge him and say, "I get what you're going for, but is this our best option?"

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

Yep, he's insanely predictable. Former players have said as much in interviews since he left (I'm thinking of Draper, Osgood, and McCarty).

 

[jkutswings]

After the support apparatus around him left town that's when things started to go cattywompus.

Bonus points for using cattywampus.

 

[MBH]

All the jokes about Holland got so stale and predictable, but he's still doing it. It's wild.

The retreads like AA and Green that offered nothing. The loyalty deals. The overvaluing of veteran leadership. And now, if true, going all-in on Abdelkader 2.0.

Old dog, same tricks. He's not a disaster GM or a dumb guy, he's actually a thoughtful hockey guy and runs a good ship... And that's the most frustrating part because he can't seem to recognize his Achilles heel.

Have you ever worked on a project and NEEDED that friend/coworker to rein you in? To challenge your work and make sure you weren't falling into your usual shortcomings? The guy that lets you know when you're making a misstep and need to tweak something.

I feel like Holland needs that guy with him. Someone who can challenge him and say, "I get what you're going for, but is this our best option?"

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

Holland is past it.
He refused to change.

 

[ShelbyZ]

Yeah. It's pretty incredible that Edmonton couldn't see some of the problems that Kenny had after 2012 and just keep someone in his ear about it. But hey, Edmonton's been pretty blind about it's own issues for so long, I'm not even sure they realize what's going on any more.

I can see where maybe Holland had appeal because the Oilers kind of need/needed what Holland did with the Wings coming into the cap era, just on a much grander scale. Get some depth around their established elite guys, but with a limited amount of cap space or expendable resources. And at the same time, help them learn how to draft players outside of top 10 picks and run something like a respectable NHL organization and not a country club for Oilers dynasty players.

But on the other hand you're also bringing in a guy who when last running a somewhat competitive team, had a strong aversity to lateral trades or proactive asset management and took a safe approach by "generously" retaining his own players and plugging holes with veteran free agents... Maybe not a huge deal, until you remember that Edmonton is usually ranked as one of the least desired locations for players, especially those that have wives and kids. Even when they came one win away from a Cup, most guys that had some control over where they play not named Ryan Smyth wanted to get out of dodge.

That's what I think gets glossed over with the Keith acquisition. The dude actually wants to go there and gives them a guy that's still likely a serviceable 2nd pairing D in place. I suppose that's better than having Kenny sit on his hands and wait for the UFA market to open up only to strike out on all viable options and have to settle for whoever is 2021's Carlo Colaiacovo.

I see all these posts elsewhere eviscerating Holland for pulling the trigger on Keith before the Suter buyout, but let's be real here... There's probably little chance of Suter signing with the Oilers.

 

[Bench]

Yep, he's insanely predictable. Former players have said as much in interviews since he left (I'm thinking of Draper, Osgood, and McCarty).

Do you think he has the same lunch every day? We've all known that guy.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

All the jokes about Holland got so stale and predictable, but he's still doing it. It's wild.

The retreads like AA and Green that offered nothing. The loyalty deals. The overvaluing of veteran leadership. And now, if true, going all-in on Abdelkader 2.0.

Old dog, same tricks. He's not a disaster GM or a dumb guy, he's actually a thoughtful hockey guy and runs a good ship... And that's the most frustrating part because he can't seem to recognize his Achilles heel.

Have you ever worked on a project and NEEDED that friend/coworker to rein you in? To challenge your work and make sure you weren't falling into your usual shortcomings? The guy that lets you know when you're making a misstep and need to tweak something.

I feel like Holland needs that guy with him. Someone who can challenge him and say, "I get what you're going for, but is this our best option?"

Ken Holland is the George Lucas of general managers. He has unrivaled success. And Jar Jar Binks.

i know it’s gonna look like I’m agreeing with you just to agree with you. It truly is eerie how similarly we think about hockey. But I did just say this exact thing (in different words) in a different topic.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think what we're forgetting about is that Detroit suffered a major brain drain at the executive level following that 2008 cup.

We had...

Devellano, Jim Nill, Joe McDonnell, Jim Bedard, Scotty Bowman, Steve Yzerman and Hakan Andersson
We lost Nill and McDonnell to the Stars who have had slightly mixed but mostly good results. Then Bedard was behind them shortly. Bowman left Detroit as a consultant to help his son Stan out in Chicago. Yzerman left in 2010 to take the reigns of Tampa.
Leftover: Hakan and Devellano as Detroit's most senior and skilled braintrust. Incoming promotion for Ryan Martin I have to wonder why he's still there. Also incoming after Nill and McDonnel leave is our beloved Tyler Wright. A few years as a development coach (believe it or not) and then 2 years of experience as director of scouting for the bluejackets from 2011 to 2013 before taking over in Detroit. The 2 best players he drafted were Josh Anderson and Boone Jenner in Columbus. And during the years that he was a development coach in Columbus they kinda...sucked.

Coaching staff was Babcock, Paul McLean, Todd McLellan.
McLean and McLellan went on to become very successful coaches in the NHL. The assistants that Babcock replaced them with were B level or worse. Remember Tom Renney and Bill "likes to throw the N word around" Peters? Or Jim Hiller and Tony Granato? Awesome strategists there. We got Blashill out of the deal, though!

I think Holland was more a collaborator in Detroit than we realize during the successful days. After the support apparatus around him left town that's when things started to go cattywompus. The smartest guys in the room all left and Holland didn't have anyone he could ask for a second or third opinion, and there wasn't anyone there telling him that Stephen Weiss or Dave Legwand would be a bad addition. Or that firing your coach is always an option.

Well said. I will defend the Stephen Weiss signing. I mean, he was exactly what we were looking for in a 2C. And the red flag on him (wrist surgery) isn’t what took him down.

Weiss instead was actually motivated to make a good impression and hurt his groin. Then pushed too hard in rehab to try to come back and completely ruined his career. That was bad luck with injury, not bad thinking. I guess you can say “be wary of a 30 year old… but Weiss never had any groin or lower body things of worry before he signed here”

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Do you think he has the same lunch every day? We've all known that guy.

Jim has worked at the same place for five years. Jim eats the same ham and cheese sandwich every day for lunch. I don't know, if I were a betting man, I'd say he will have a fun weekend in Philadelphia.

so for Kenny

Ken has been a GM for 20 years. Ken eats the same Turkey and cheddar on rye every day for lunch. I don’t know… if I were a betting man, I think he’ll end up signing a late 20s grinder for top 6 money.