Leafs fire Carlyle II - Carlyle Speaks (Link in post 227)

[The Winter Soldier]

I would agree with you except that Carlyle said he demanded on the phone convo to be told right then. What was Nonis supposed to say, "no we're not firing you" and then the next morning show up in Sudbury and call Carlyle "hey, I just happened to be in the area, let's chat!" then "guess what, I changed my mind!"

Carlyle did say this, I would too. What did Nonis expect Randy to do knowing he was in Sudbury, to leave his family and drive back to Toronto at 3AM to make a 8AM meeting?

 

[Durrr]

Carlyle did say this, I would too. What did Nonis expect Randy to do knowing he was in Sudbury, to leave his family and drive back to Toronto at 3AM to make a 8AM meeting?

Didn't Carlyle say in the article he was coming back for morning practice regardless?

From the way the situation unfolded, really seems like there was no good way to get this done. Even if Shanny/Nonis flew to Sudbury, what were they going to do show up at Randy's family house full of grieving family members and fire him?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Didn't Carlyle say in the article he was coming back for morning practice regardless?

From the way the situation unfolded, really seems like there was no good way to get this done. Even if Shanny/Nonis flew to Sudbury, what were they going to do show up at Randy's family house full of grieving family members and fire him?

The right time to do it was after the game in Winnipeg. Nonis said they were thinking about it for 2 weeks even when the team was winning. Why they had to wait to Tuesday with Carlyle in Sudbury is silly to me.

 

[Gramsci]

Cry him a river. He's still pulling down $2 million per. He wasn't fired. He was relieved of his coaching duties. Now he's paid to do whatever he wants with his time.

 

[Durrr]

The right time to do it was after the game in Winnipeg. Nonis said they were thinking about it for 2 weeks even when the team was winning. Why they had to wait to Tuesday with Carlyle in Sudbury is silly to me.

These aren't just quick or rash decisions, the management group obviously had to get together to make a final decision regardless of if they were talking about it before hand. After the game in Peg the team gets on the bus almost instantly and flys back to Toronto, where Randy would have heard the news of his brother-in-laws passing the same or next day (if the funeral was tuesday?).

Seems like you're trying to make an unfortunate situation even worse by trying to make it look even more poorly on the organization. Firings are never easy and rarely done right in any profession, and the timing of this one made it even worse. Randy was given another 2 years of pay even though last year was a disaster, seems to me like the organization gave him much more then they needed too in the first place.

 

[Longshot]

The right time to do it was after the game in Winnipeg. Nonis said they were thinking about it for 2 weeks even when the team was winning. Why they had to wait to Tuesday with Carlyle in Sudbury is silly to me.

They were waiting until the World Juniors were over.

The Leafs would have looked like a bunch of complete morons firing their coach while the world junior tournament was happening in their hometown.

 

[Durrr]

They were waiting until the World Juniors were over.

The Leafs would have looked like a bunch of complete morons firing their coach while the world junior tournament was happening in their hometown.

Ah I forgot about this as well, but my point stands (this just adds to it).

 

[The Winter Soldier]

These aren't just quick or rash decisions, the management group obviously had to get together to make a final decision regardless of if they were talking about it before hand. After the game in Peg the team gets on the bus almost instantly and flys back to Toronto, where Randy would have heard the news of his brother-in-laws passing the same or next day (if the funeral was tuesday?).

Seems like you're trying to make an unfortunate situation even worse by trying to make it look even worse on the organization. Firings are never easy and rarely done right in any profession, and the timing of this one made it even worse. Randy was given another 2 years of pay even though last year was a disaster, seems to me like the organization gave him much more then they needed too.

Coaches always get an add on year so they have a parachute, this is nothing new. The unfortunate part was they fired someone over the phone while he was grieving the passing of a family member.

I don't care how much you want to excuse this, it is not right. If Nonis and Shanahan did not know he was in Sudbury with his family, and didn't ask him to drive overnight to Toronto then I would not make an issue of it. But they did, and that does speak to how this team thinks about it's people. You don't think other coaches would not notice this?

Right time to do it was after Winnipeg's game on Sunday. As I said, they have been considering this for 2 weeks.

 

[Durrr]

Coaches always get an add on year so they have a parachute, this is nothing new. The unfortunate part was they fired someone over the phone while he was grieving the passing of a family member.

I don't care how much you want to excuse this, it is not right. If Nonis and Shanahan did not know he was in Sudbury with his family, and didn't ask him to drive overnight to Toronto then I would not make an issue of it. But they did, and that does speak to how this team thinks about it's people. You don't think other coaches would not notice this?

Right time to do it was after Winnipeg's game on Sunday. As I said, they have been considering this for 2 weeks.

World Juniors, as the poster said. Even the media commented on this, and how stupid Toronto would have looked if they derailed the attention of a tournament they were hosting in their own building.

So again, countless things went on during this process, there was no good time to do this.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

World Juniors.

Game was on Monday not Sunday. Not that it really mattered.

 

[Durrr]

Game was on Monday not Sunday. Not that it really mattered.

So? They still would have derailed the tournament hype with their ********. If you think that's remotely okay, then that's your opinion and yours alone. It's simply not.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So? They still would have derailed the tournament hype with their ********.

Derail a tournament! How? You think the rest of Canada or the world cares about the Leafs? If he was fired Sunday morning, talk shows talk about for a day, and the next day it is business as usual. As it was on Tues-Wed.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I just need to correct people.
Randy is only being paid for the rest of this year. his second year was a Club option (which obviously, the team is not picking up).

with the information that was gathered - from the tail-end of the winning streak (which corresponds with LA/Anaheim and we were getting dummied in every aspect except the final score, management relayed the message that they were not liking what they were seeing and clean it up. So Randy had two weeks to try to turn the ship around, (to which we went, 2 and 7 with, where optically, we should have won the Philly game, the Florida game and the Tampa game).

Now - personally I don't think that would have saved him, but I think the Winnipeg ultimately killed him. (Randy's comments, as valid as they were, "I can only coach with what I have." is as true and damning as McLean's "I'm scared of who we face and I'm scared of what I put on the ice" (or however he phrased it).

Management got together Sunday-Monday. Final decision was made Monday. they didn't want to overshadow that event (nor should they have). Between that time, Randy finds out his brother in law passed away, and he needs to do things. But he'll be at practice by 10:00. (or 11, whenever practice is). Nonis says, come at 8 instead. Randy realises he's being fired, and says "do it over the phone." Nonis does it over the phone -because Randy said to.

I'm sorry -i would have been more pissed off if my boss came to fire me, when my family was grieving, vs. them calling me up to fire me. and firings need to be quick and judicious (what were they going to do? wait until Wednesday when it was more convenient, but oops, wait there's a game on Wednesday).

If you had the flu, and you were being let go -would you expect your boss to come to your house to fire you face to face? You wouldn't expect the company to hold on firing you until you got better so they could do it in person.

 

[Durrr]

Derail a tournament! How? You think the rest of Canada or the world cares about the Leafs? If he was fired Sunday morning, talk shows talk about for a day, and the next day it is business as usual. As it was on Tues-Wed.

When half the sports media attention in Canada turns away from the tournament to the Leafs, you don't think this consumes the hype of the tournament?

TSN did like 24 hours straight Leafs coverage when Randy was canned, you think they can balance the Juniors and this?

 

[Longshot]

Game was on Monday not Sunday. Not that it really mattered.

The semi-finals were on Sunday. Perhaps you remember. Russia vs. Sweden and Canada vs. Slovakia.

The Leafs would have been accused of stealing the thunder and headlines of the tournament that was happening in their own building if they had of fired Carlyle just as the tournament was reaching its climax.

But you're bottom line point is correct: it didn't really matter. The Leafs didn't owe the World Juniors any obligation to not do anything while it was happening. But it was more a matter of respect between the two. The Leafs waited until the tournament was over and then made the move.

 

[Durrr]

The semi-finals were on Sunday. Perhaps you remember. Russia vs. Sweden and Canada vs. Slovakia.

The Leafs would have been accused of stealing the thunder and headlines of the tournament that was happening in their own building if they had of fired Carlyle just as the tournament was reaching its climax.

But you're bottom line point is correct: it didn't really matter. The Leafs didn't owe the World Juniors any obligation to not do anything while it was happening. But it was more a matter of respect between the two. The Leafs waited until the tournament was over and then made the move.

This is wrong. Bells owns TSN and the Leafs, you know, the company who is nationally presenting the tournament? Without hockey rights this is literally the biggest event for TSN all year.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Derail a tournament! How? You think the rest of Canada or the world cares about the Leafs? If he was fired Sunday morning, talk shows talk about for a day, and the next day it is business as usual. As it was on Tues-Wed.

Perspective:

Canada wins gold -ending five year gold drought. Everyone is talking about this until 10:15 when

BOOM. Leafs coach fired

from 10:16 until 7:00pm, guess what media outlets were talking about? It wasn't Canada winning gold, that's for sure.


Sunday was the Semi-Finals (In Toronto). Monday was the Finals (in Toronto) . they didn't like what they saw.. If they did Saturday: No one is talking about the semi-finals/finals Sunday/Monday. If they did it Monday - it casts ashadow over the event.

if you honestly believe that the Leafs firing their head coach wouldn't have have shifted media attention,....

 

[Longshot]

This is wrong. Bells owns TSN and the Leafs, you know, the company who is nationally presenting the tournament?

I just meant in a formal sense. There was nothing formal preventing the Leafs from making the move while the tournament was on.

In the same way that Major League baseball does not allow teams to make big announcements during the World Series.

And I don't think Bell (owners of TSN) management would have needed to tell Leafs management not to make the move and disrupt attention on the tournament. Nonis and Shanahan both have enough respect for the game as a whole to wait until it was over.

 

[Auston Matthews]

At the end of the day, Carlyle gave us some of the best Leaf hockey in 10 years, even if it was just for one season.

 

[Daisy Jane]

This is wrong. Bells owns TSN and the Leafs, you know, the company who is nationally presenting the tournament?

it's not even that. it's just optics.

what looks worse:

GM firing their coach via telephone.

vs

Toronto GM fires coach the day before the Semi-Final game in Toronto where Canada tries to end gold medal drought. #1 question that would be asked would have been "why didn't you wait until after the WJHC to do it. " hands down.

as much as one can argue "Organizationally, it looks bad because you should be fired face to face." the flip side could be. "Organizationally the Leafs only care about themselves, and they stole the spotlight from kids, the event (IN their Hometown), and Hockey Canada"

I dare say, option 2 is a lot worse for the organization than option 1 is.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

The semi-finals were on Sunday. Perhaps you remember. Russia vs. Sweden and Canada vs. Slovakia.

The Leafs would have been accused of stealing the thunder and headlines of the tournament that was happening in their own building if they had of fired Carlyle just as the tournament was reaching its climax.

But you're bottom line point is correct: it didn't really matter. The Leafs didn't owe the World Juniors any obligation to not do anything while it was happening. But it was more a matter of respect between the two. The Leafs waited until the tournament was over and then made the move.

I don't think the NHL stops for the WJC. As much as we love this in Canada, it is a TSN creation that to their credit has taken off in popularity.

It really has no significance other than it was held in Montreal and Toronto this year. There is no good time to fire anyone.

Leafs stealing thunder, I don't know if this actually entered the mind of Shanahan and Nonis. In the end they have a team to run and they have to do what is best for the team. If I were them, I wouldn't let a Junior tournament dictate the plans of a team.

If anything, they didn't want to steal the spotlight from TSN if we are going to use this as a reason or excuse.

 

[Durrr]

I just meant in a formal sense. There was nothing formal preventing the Leafs from making the move while the tournament was on.

In the same way that Major League baseball does not allow teams to make big announcements during the World Series.

And I don't think Bell (owners of TSN) management would have needed to tell Leafs management not to make the move and disrupt attention on the tournament. Nonis and Shanahan both have enough respect for the game as a whole to wait until it was over.

In the formal sense fine, but its atrocious business non the less. I'm sure the board of MLSE (and Shanny) were fully aware not to cause a scene during the tournament.

 

[Durrr]

I don't think the NHL stops for the WJC. As much as we love this in Canada, it is a TSN creation that to their credit has taken off in popularity.

It really has no significance other than it was held in Montreal and Toronto this year. There is no good time to fire anyone.

Leafs stealing thunder, I don't know if this actually entered the mind of Shanahan and Nonis. In the end they have a team to run and they have to do what is best for the team. If I were them, I wouldn't let a Junior tournament dictate the plans of a team.

If anything, they didn't want to steal the spotlight from TSN if we are going to use this as a reason or excuse.

It's not an excuse when Bell has a share in MLSE and owns TSN. Them not stealing the spotlight is them not ruining their parent company's golden ticket.

Welcome to the world of business!

 

[Cor]

The Toronto Maple Leafs aren't going to delay firing a Head Coach because of a Junior Tournament

Media Coverage has no percentage in the decision. Brendan Shanahan doesn't care if the media talks about the Leafs instead of the WJC's.


Would it have still been bad had it been Russia who won Gold?

 

[Durrr]

The Toronto Maple Leafs aren't going to delay firing a Head Coach because of a Junior Tournament

Yes, they are, and they did.