Proposal: Leafs/Canucks

[PinkFly]

Leivo is 25. Virtanen is 22. Not even close

Yeah but Leivo has been able to produce in the NHL whereas Virtanen's production is abysmal. Leivo can't get playing time because the Leafs are stacked beyond belief whereas the Canucks roster is practically trash aside from a few pieces.

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Yeah but Leivo has been able to produce in the NHL whereas Virtanen's production is abysmal. Leivo can't get playing time because the Leafs are stacked beyond belief whereas the Canucks roster is practically trash aside from a few pieces.

If Leivo was anything he’d have been playing over Moore, Martin etc. The Leafs roster was also trash before Matthews and co and he couldn’t make it then

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Virtanen probably shouldn't be written off at this point, but he hasn't been as good as Kapanen in the NHL, and not nearly as good as Kapanen in the AHL where both players got the offensive usage that neither really has in the NHL - Kapanen produced there at the rates you'd expect from a top 6 prospect, Virtanen fell well short of that. There is lots of evidence for Kapanen>Virtanen at this point, I think it would be hard to frame it otherwise
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I’m not arguing otherwise. I’m arguing that calling one a top 6 prospect while the other is a waiver fodder bust is ridiculous. The separation between the two’s track record isn’t that significant.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I’m not arguing otherwise. I’m arguing that calling one a top 6 prospect while the other is a waiver fodder bust is ridiculous. The separation between the two’s track record isn’t that significant.

it's very significant in offensive usage, there just isn't enough of that in the NHL to make a judgement. Kapanen has passed every "top 6" test that he's been given, Virtanen hasn't

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

it's very significant in offensive usage, there just isn't enough of that in the NHL to make a judgement. Kapanen has passed every "top 6" test that he's been given, Virtanen hasn't

Besides the test of producing at the NHL level.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Besides the test of producing at the NHL level.

he hasn't had that test yet, playing with 4th liners in heavily defensive usage with PK time but very little PP time isn't a good litmus test for offensive prowess, you'll get a lot of false negatives that way. He's being used as a checking forward and doing very well at it

ultimately I think he'll end up being a Michael Grabner type offensive player with Carl Hagelin type defensive prowess, very useful but not a top 6 in a vacuum. I think he moves too fast for his brain to keep up

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

he hasn't had that test yet, playing with 4th liners in heavily defensive usage with PK time but very little PP time isn't a good litmus test for offensive prowess, you'll get a lot of false negatives that way. He's being used as a checking forward and doing very well at it

ultimately I think he'll end up being a Michael Grabner type offensive player with Carl Hagelin type defensive prowess, very useful but not a top 6 in a vacuum. I think he moves too fast for his brain to keep up

And that’s probably a spot on comp. Essentially a speedy top 9 guy. But I very much belief Virtanen can be a top 9 guy as well just in a different role

 

[Randy Randerson]

And that’s probably a spot on comp. Essentially a speedy top 9 guy. But I very much belief Virtanen can be a top 9 guy as well just in a different role

I wouldn't be cutting bait on Virtanen yet either, but I think he has to show more to really secure a long term NHL role. Kapanen I think has at least shown that he's a bottom 6 player and excellent penalty killer with some offensive tools that will translate (speed to generate odd man rushes/breakaways, very good release) and some that are less predictable (hands, ability to use the tools he has at his own high rate of speed against NHL competition). I could see them turning out similarly, but Kapanen's floor is much higher imo

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

I wouldn't be cutting bait on Virtanen yet either, but I think he has to show more to really secure a long term NHL role. Kapanen I think has at least shown that he's a bottom 6 player and excellent penalty killer with some offensive tools that will translate (speed to generate odd man rushes/breakaways, very good release) and some that are less predictable (hands, ability to use the tools he has at his own high rate of speed against NHL competition). I could see them turning out similarly, but Kapanen's floor is much higher imo

He showed some nice flashes towards the end of last year, just has to work on his vision and finishing. Only McDavid, Miles Wood, Hall, MacKinnon and Kase had more possession entries per hour last year. He just couldn't do anything with them

 

[Liferleafer]

Can somebody explain to me why we are arguing about Kapanen? Tanev? Matthews?? None of them are in the OP....are they?

 

[Randy Randerson]

He showed some nice flashes towards the end of last year, just has to work on his vision and finishing. Only McDavid, Miles Wood, Hall, MacKinnon and Kase had more possession entries per hour last year. He just couldn't do anything with them

Van is in a good position to see what they have in Virtanen, there's a few years for him to show what he can do without a lot of fallout in terms of consequences of losing games if it doesn't work for him

Can somebody explain to me why we are arguing about Kapanen? Tanev? Matthews?? None of them are in the OP....are they?

just killing time waiting for some hockey.....I guess we should really be talking about this Levivo guy

 

[Liferleafer]

Van is in a good position to see what they have in Virtanen, there's a few years for him to show what he can do without a lot of fallout in terms of consequences of losing games if it doesn't work for him


just killing time waiting for some hockey.....I guess we should really be talking about this Levivo guy

Meh, it was just a lot of fluff to wade through.

To the OP, i would pass, Leivo is available for next to nothing if the Nucks want/need him. Sutter is of no use to TO with that cap hit. Virtanen is still a question mark....if he was a defenseman (even as a question mark) i might be more inclined...but as it stands, pretty easy pass. Brown has a role here, and Grundstrom looked good with the Marlies...and ELCs are going to be realy important going forward.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Meh, it was just a lot of fluff to wade through.

To the OP, i would pass, Leivo is available for next to nothing if the Nucks want/need him. Sutter is of no use to TO with that cap hit. Virtanen is still a question mark....if he was a defenseman (even as a question mark) i might be more inclined...but as it stands, pretty easy pass. Brown has a role here, and Grundstrom looked good with the Marlies...and ELCs are going to be realy important going forward.

I was just making light of the misspelling in the OP

I wouldn't trade Leivo for what he's worth, his NHL results are way too good to let him leave without finding out if that's real for the 3rd round pick he'd get right now. I don't want Sutter's contract, and honestly his underlying numbers are terrible. Virtanen....sure I'd take him, but why not just let Leivo/Grundstrom/Bracco/Timashov/Korshkov/Brooks fight it out for that roster spot in the years to come? I think the result will be good if we do that

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

Van is in a good position to see what they have in Virtanen, there's a few years for him to show what he can do without a lot of fallout in terms of consequences of losing games if it doesn't work for him


just killing time waiting for some hockey.....I guess we should really be talking about this Levivo guy

Green seemed to have more confidence in him than Willie ever did. Interesting to see if he can get top six minutes with Bo, Brock, Baertschi, Pettersson locked in. Probably gonna be either him or Goldobin unless they play EP at center.

 

[Horse McHindu]

I could see them turning out similarly, but Kapanen's floor is much higher imo

LOL, what a joke. Talk about being completely biased and unobjective.

Kapanen, is a marginal Top 6 forward at best. Like a support player on the 2nd line of a weak team. Virtanen on the other hand, has a legit shot of becoming one of the premier power forwards in the NHL. Anyone who saw how Virtanen finished last year, knows that this kid has the potential to be the real deal.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Green seemed to have more confidence in him than Willie ever did. Interesting to see if he can get top six minutes with Bo, Brock, Baertschi, Pettersson locked in. Probably gonna be either him or Goldobin unless they play EP at center.

seems like most of the league is going to a "top 9" format rather than just two scoring lines now that the designated goons are all gone, so there might be room for both. I wouldn't be surprised if Pettersson is sheltered a bit early in his career, seems risky to throw him to the wolves, but I think you'll get a respectable forward corps out of what you have and a really good forward corps if you happen to draft 1st this year. I think the Canucks are missing the face-of-the-franchise forward unless Pettersson turns out at the peak of his potential, but he and Boeser should be good enough to be core supporting guys on a scary offensive team a la Nylander/Marner. I could see Virtanen finding a spot if he puts it all together, and it could be in a role that makes his results a lot better than they would be otherwise if he plays with good linemates. I think Kapanen is the same that way, he could be the #3 on a terrifying offensive line because defenses always have to account for him or he'll burn them for 3 breakaways a game, which in turn makes a lot of space for his linemates to work

LOL, what a joke. Talk about being completely biased and unobjective.

Kapanen, is a marginal Top 6 forward at best. Like a support player on the 2nd line of a weak team. Virtanen on the other hand, has a legit shot of becoming one of the premier power forwards in the NHL. Anyone who saw how Virtanen finished last year, knows that this kid has the potential to be the real deal.

"you're biased and unobjective even though you're literally citing numbers the whole way through, and my unbiased opinion is based on nothing but my own bias"

also, thanks for the lols at the premier power forward bit, Virtanen needs to produce offensively somewhere before he gets any mention of being a premier NHL forward. He has not produced at an impressive rate anywhere, including his junior career

 

[Baksfamous112]

Virtanen probably shouldn't be written off at this point, but he hasn't been as good as Kapanen in the NHL, and not nearly as good as Kapanen in the AHL where both players got the offensive usage that neither really has in the NHL - Kapanen produced there at the rates you'd expect from a top 6 prospect, Virtanen fell well short of that. There is lots of evidence for Kapanen>Virtanen at this point, I think it would be hard to frame it otherwise
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All those fancy stats for a mere 10 points in 52 games. How sad

 

[Nizdizzle]

LOL, what a joke. Talk about being completely biased and unobjective.

Kapanen, is a marginal Top 6 forward at best. Like a support player on the 2nd line of a weak team. Virtanen on the other hand, has a legit shot of becoming one of the premier power forwards in the NHL. Anyone who saw how Virtanen finished last year, knows that this kid has the potential to be the real deal.

Woah Nelly.

 

[Randy Randerson]

All those fancy stats for a mere 10 points in 52 games. How sad

lol, k Trump

 

[Baksfamous112]

lol, k Trump

To be fair you guys have been on the Kapanen is a guaranteed top 6 player « next year for the past 3 years now and so far he still only has produced at the rate of a meh 4th liner.

I guess this year is « the year », right?

 

[Randy Randerson]

To be fair you guys have been on the Kapanen is a guaranteed top 6 player « next year for the past 3 years now and so far he still only has produced at the rate of a meh 4th liner.

I guess this year is « the year », right?

who is "you guys"? I don't speak for anyone, and no one speaks for me. I would also suggest that you're spewing some butt hurt hyperbole here

He's produced at very high end 4th line rates with very good underlying numbers in defensive 4th line usage, not sure how that's bad

 

[Baksfamous112]

who is "you guys"? I don't speak for anyone, and no one speaks for me. I would also suggest that you're spewing some butt hurt hyperbole here

He's produced at very high end 4th line rates with very good underlying numbers in defensive 4th line usage, not sure how that's bad

By you guys I mean Leafs fans. They (if you prefer that term) have been trying to convince every other team that Kapanen has and is a top 6 player (even before his 2g in 6 playoff games when « they » said he was a top 6 lock for the future)

I never it was bad but you guys are talking about a guy who produced at a 4th liner rate as a top 6 forwards. He’s not. He couldn’t even pass guys like Komarov in Leafs depth chart

 

[GoodbyeLuongo]

seems like most of the league is going to a "top 9" format rather than just two scoring lines now that the designated goons are all gone, so there might be room for both. I wouldn't be surprised if Pettersson is sheltered a bit early in his career, seems risky to throw him to the wolves, but I think you'll get a respectable forward corps out of what you have and a really good forward corps if you happen to draft 1st this year. I think the Canucks are missing the face-of-the-franchise forward unless Pettersson turns out at the peak of his potential, but he and Boeser should be good enough to be core supporting guys on a scary offensive team a la Nylander/Marner. I could see Virtanen finding a spot if he puts it all together, and it could be in a role that makes his results a lot better than they would be otherwise if he plays with good linemates. I think Kapanen is the same that way, he could be the #3 on a terrifying offensive line because defenses always have to account for him or he'll burn them for 3 breakaways a game, which in turn makes a lot of space for his linemates to work


"you're biased and unobjective even though you're literally citing numbers the whole way through, and my unbiased opinion is based on nothing but my own bias"

also, thanks for the lols at the premier power forward bit, Virttanen needs to produce offensively somewhere before he gets any mention of being a premier NHL forward. He has not produced at an impressive rate anywhere, including his junior career

I think Horvat is sort of serving as the "face" just considering he was the first of the kids to really show promise and because he's pretty much a lock to be our next captain. Pettersson will probably be sheltered as he should, but yeah the obvious dream scenario is to get Hughes so he can be that bonafide superstar 1C face of franchise etc whereas Horvat can fit the 2C role he's much more suited for.

 

[Randy Randerson]

By you guys I mean Leafs fans. They (if you prefer that term) have been trying to convince every other team that Kapanen has and is a top 6 player (even before his 2g in 6 playoff games when « they » said he was a top 6 lock for the future)

I never it was bad but you guys are talking about a guy who produced at a 4th liner rate as a top 6 forwards. He’s not. He couldn’t even pass guys like Komarov in Leafs depth chart

lol, go argue with "them" then, I have not at any point said Kapanen is a lock to be a top 6 player, so quit looking for opportunities to dump on all things Leafs as I imagine you're going to find yourself on the wrong end of the balance of those opportunities for the next 5 to 10 years as a Habs fan

what Kapanen has done so far is shown that he is a very good bottom 6 player, he has not disqualified himself as having the potential to be more. When he has had scoring line opportunity, he has produced absolutely in line with what you would expect of a prospect with top 6 potential, that opportunity has just been in the 2nd best pro league in NA rather than the NHL, so we have yet to see whether he is or is not a top 6 player

 

[Randy Randerson]

I think Horvat is sort of serving as the "face" just considering he was the first of the kids to really show promise and because he's pretty much a lock to be our next captain. Pettersson will probably be sheltered as he should, but yeah the obvious dream scenario is to get Hughes so he can be that bonafide superstar 1C face of franchise etc whereas Horvat can fit the 2C role he's much more suited for.

sorry when I said "face" I meant the franchise player by performance, the McDavid/Eichel/Barkov/Laine type rather than the locker room and media leader. Pettersson could be that if he really hits, but a Jack Hughes would go a long way for you guys

agree on Horvat though, as a 2C he would be in his element on a contending team, especially with some linemates that can really play