Sportsnet: Leafs are Shopping Phaneuf - MOD WARNING #394

[hotpaws]

Give Dion a different role and he could be so much better. Stop putting the weight of the whole D on his shoulders. Let him shoot the puck more, let him be more creative offensively and Dion takes on a whole new dimension. He was at one time a very good offensive player.

There's no rover position in hockey and DP isn't a good enough skater to play a more offensive style without costing us defensively.

He plays a ton a pp mins and was ineffective this year while having plenty of chances to "shoot the puck".

The weight of the whole D isn't on his shoulders , he's being paid like an elite D but the problem is he's not up to the task.

We could easily replace him on the 1st PP unit but then he'd be reduced to slightly over 20 mins and DN would look like a fool for signing a D to a top 5 salary at his position and said player could only play 2nd pair mins .

 

[hotpaws]

right, but the Jackets are to me an example of what you don't want to end up like. They are a young scrappy team, but I don't see them becoming a Cup contender in the next five years. To me they will be the team that gets in for two years and then misses the next. so we could go through all this change and just wind up with another group that won't challenge for the cup.

You're knocking the Jackets , while going around and defending the shape our teams in .

 

[leafs in five]

right, but the Jackets are to me an example of what you don't want to end up like. They are a young scrappy team, but I don't see them becoming a Cup contender in the next five years. To me they will be the team that gets in for two years and then misses the next. so we could go through all this change and just wind up with another group that won't challenge for the cup.

it's been over five years since the start of the Leafs "re-tool" and the teams has gone through a lot of change to wind up with a group that won't challenge for the cup. but it would be cool to see them make the playoffs two seasons in a row.

 

[The CyNick]

You're knocking the Jackets , while going around and defending the shape our teams in .

So in your mind they are a Cup contender?

 

[The CyNick]

it's been over five years since the start of the Leafs "re-tool" and the teams has gone through a lot of change to wind up with a group that won't challenge for the cup. but it would be cool to see them make the playoffs two seasons in a row.

Yup it would. And they could blow it up and end up with a team that goes out in the first round every year. or a team that never gets in at all.

I just don't think trading Dion for futures puts us in a much better position as it relates to winning a Cup. It could be the first of many moves for futures, but that's not what was originally said.

It's different if we end up with a number one centre by trading him, but I don't think anyone expects that to happen.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

right, but the Jackets are to me an example of what you don't want to end up like. They are a young scrappy team, but I don't see them becoming a Cup contender in the next five years. To me they will be the team that gets in for two years and then misses the next. so we could go through all this change and just wind up with another group that won't challenge for the cup.

The point still remains. The Blue Jackets were winning nothing with Nash and actually got better as a result of the direct and indirect implications of that trade.

I see the Leafs as being a few years away from contending and need to at least expore trading Phaneuf. Nobody is talking about giving Phaneuf away but if we can get some key future pieces to build around they need to srongly consider because with or without him we aren't winning anything.

Phaneuf is 29 and if the Leafs are 3, 4, 5 year away from contending (like how I see it) he'll likely see his play decline then we might be wishing we could have got a top young asset or two for him when we could.

Two other examples of how dealing a star player doesn't have to be a loss:

Clark for top youngster Sundin. Getting Sundin gave us a franchise center to build around.

Rumoured 2008 Jeff Carter + 1st rounder (pick became Luca Sbisa) for a 30 year old Tomas Kaberle who was still an elite Dman. Kaberle waived his NTC to continue helping us win nothing but that deal sure would have set us up a lot better long term.

However, dealing Phaneuf could also turn out to be a complete failure like Edmonton after dealing Pronger.

 

[Darkside Blue]

I kind of think we'll trade Dion to San Jose for a couple of prospects and a couple of draft picks.

He'll have a pretty good year, play 2nd pairing and 2nd pp, and we'll all wonder if we made a mistake trading him.

Then the playoffs will start, and we'll see the return of Frankendion, who was the poster boy for a franchise that has been the epitome of collapsing under pressure.

 

[91Kadri91*]

How is it typical when it's true? Nothing we get for Dion will come close to replacing Dion so why are we taking a step backwards for no reason? If the team doesn't plan on plunging itself into no mans land/forced rebuild then trading him is dumb (depending on the return of course).

We're already in no man's land.

 

[Durkin67]

I kind of think we'll trade Dion to San Jose for a couple of prospects and a couple of draft picks.

He'll have a pretty good year, play 2nd pairing and 2nd pp, and we'll all wonder if we made a mistake trading him.

Then the playoffs will start, and we'll see the return of Frankendion, who was the poster boy for a franchise that has been the epitome of collapsing under pressure.

SJS makes sense, but Id gladly take a pair of Schenns for him from PHI

 

[leafs in five]

I just don't think trading Dion for futures puts us in a much better position as it relates to winning a Cup.

yeah i don't really either, especially if that move is made in concert with other win-now type moves (e.g. re-signing Bolland). but i don't think this group is anywhere close with Dion, either.

the Leafs are in a really awkward position with respect to winning now vs building for the future, because they bought guys out, traded picks and prospects, signed a grinder for 7 years, all part of an attempt to be better positioned to win now. to start trading from that core for picks or prospects would be an admission by Nonis that he screwed up, and he doesn't really seem like a guy who is willing to admit that about himself.

i am fine with trading Dion but not if there isn't a plan beyond freeing up cap space. if it's a matter of shipping Dion out so that they can have a better captain or a better style of leadership in the room so that this group can finally succeed under Carlyle like Nonis knows they can then it will be another in a sequence of disappointing developments. i guess i am getting used to those.

i am not a big Phaneuf fan but he's at least a good player. Nonis last summer thought that there was no reason to keep a good player (Grabo) that didn't fit with his/Carlyle's vision for the team going forward, so he paid him to play somewhere else. it was a really bad move.

 

[Beleafer4]

Im not sure I want to go full out rebuild... But if we do, I would do something along the lines of

1) Trade Phaneuf for Yakupov
2) Trade Kessel for Seth Jones

Bernier, JVR, Jones, Rielly, Yakupov, Kadri, Gardiner, (whoever we pick 8th) would be a decent core.
Then we would probably also finish poorly next season getting another quality pick

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I kind of think we'll trade Dion to San Jose for a couple of prospects and a couple of draft picks.

He'll have a pretty good year, play 2nd pairing and 2nd pp, and we'll all wonder if we made a mistake trading him.

Then the playoffs will start, and we'll see the return of Frankendion, who was the poster boy for a franchise that has been the epitome of collapsing under pressure.

Aside from Couture or maybe Hertl I don't see the Sharks having the pieces we want. Vlasic isn't going anywhere and they don't have a high 1st rounder.

I'm guessing it ends up being the Ducks, Wild or Canes:

Ducks: loaded prospect pool with the Ottawa # 10 overall selection this draft + their own first rounder. Bryan Allan could be thrown in to offset Dions cap hit for this year.

Canes: deep down the middle with Staals, Skinner + Lindholm. Jordan Staal or Lindholm would fit our timeline to get younger and deeper down the middle. Also own the 7th overall pick. Cam Ward who has two terrible years left on his deal could offset cost of taking on Phaneuf.

Wild: lack depth on D but have lots of good young pieces. Have lots of good young pieces like Granlund, Coyle, Niederretier, prospect Dumba. Have cap space with Heatley contract coming off the books.

 

[Durrr]

The point still remains. The Blue Jackets were winning nothing with Nash and actually got better as a result of the direct and indirect implications of that trade.

I see the Leafs as being a few years away from contending and need to at least expore trading Phaneuf. Nobody is talking about giving Phaneuf away but if we can get some key future pieces to build around they need to srongly consider because with or without him we aren't winning anything.

Phaneuf is 29 and if the Leafs are 3, 4, 5 year away from contending (like how I see it) he'll likely see his play decline then we might be wishing we could have got a top young asset or two for him when we could.

Two other examples of how dealing a star player doesn't have to be a loss:

Clark for top youngster Sundin. Getting Sundin gave us a franchise center to build around.

Rumoured 2008 Jeff Carter + 1st rounder (pick became Luca Sbisa) for a 30 year old Tomas Kaberle who was still an elite Dman. Kaberle waived his NTC to continue helping us win nothing but that deal sure would have set us up a lot better long term.

However, dealing Phaneuf could also turn out to be a complete failure like Edmonton after dealing Pronger.

This is the problem though, lots of people are talking about giving Dion away for nothing, and talking about all this "addition by subtraction" BS. No one should be straight up against trading Dion, it just all depends on; 1. The direction management wants to take this team, and 2. The return.

If management thinks we need to take a step back after last season and restock some higher end youth, then looking into possible trades for Dion makes a lot of sense. If were continuing the course, then Dion should only be moved if the return is too good to pass up. I'd much rather move Dion then Kadri, Gardiner or Rielly though.

As for Kaberle, we also could have had Kessel for Kabrele + 1st (Kadri) at the draft, keeping our 2 firsts to come. This organization has had a brutal past when it comes to letting assets go at the right time. Either one of those two trades puts this team WAY ahead of where it is right now. I hope the new management has some sense about them, because this team could really use some higher end youth.

What did we end up getting for Kabrele? A 4th and Stewart Percy? ?

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

SJS makes sense, but Id gladly take a pair of Schenns for him from PHI

Oh, yes please. Schenn brothers would be awesome. I actually miss Luke and he is the kind of defender we miss today.

 

[Beleafer4]

Oh, yes please. Schenn brothers would be awesome. I actually miss Luke and he is the kind of defender we miss today.

Yes because tim gleason, paul ranger and mark fraser have been very successful here.

Luke schenn= cody franson without the offense.

Bad defense, lead feet, but a lot of hits

 

[hotpaws]

So in your mind they are a Cup contender?

No , but I can't say we're in a better position to become one than they are at this present time outside of our franchises economic advantage .

 

[EscapeGoat]

Id gladly take a pair of Schenns for him from PHI

Ugh.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Yes because tim gleason, paul ranger and mark fraser have been very successful here.

Luke schenn= cody franson without the offense.

Bad defense, lead feet, but a lot of hits

He have actually looked solid when I have seen him play. You are right about the lead feet but he is getting better positionally. But then I like him so perhaps I view him more positively then I should.

 

[hullsy47]

Im not sure I want to go full out rebuild... But if we do, I would do something along the lines of

1) Trade Phaneuf for Yakupov
2) Trade Kessel for Seth Jones

Bernier, JVR, Jones, Rielly, Yakupov, Kadri, Gardiner, (whoever we pick 8th) would be a decent core.
Then we would probably also finish poorly next season getting another quality pick

i think that 's the culture change right there ......florida tho for bykov and maybe some kinda swap of no 1.s

 

[ShaneFalco]

Someone posted this in another thread:

Kevin McGran @kevin_mcgran
#Leafs pres Brendan Shananhan dropped by the Star newsroom. Some quotes to follow…..

Will Leafs strip C off Phaneuf? "I hope not. It's not something I've contemplated in the time that I've been here." - SHANAHAN

"I would like to improve the leadership of the entire team." SHANAHAN

"I don't know if (stripping C) is a solution. I think it's a cop-out, to a certain degree an easy way out."
SHANAHAN

"I want to help enhance the player and leader that Dion is." SHANAHAN #Leafs

On Phaneuf and #Leafs collapse: "There are certain times when less is more. Really felt that he was trying to be all things at once." Shanny

On #Leafs collapse: "I don't think anyone here just rolled over. I know there were times they were accused of that." SHANAHAN

"I've heard too many times in my life, talking about leadership, this team can't succeed with this leadership group. Until they do." SHANNY

 

[Joey Hoser]

Someone posted this in another thread:

Kevin McGran @kevin_mcgran
#Leafs pres Brendan Shananhan dropped by the Star newsroom. Some quotes to follow…..

Will Leafs strip C off Phaneuf? "I hope not. It's not something I've contemplated in the time that I've been here." - SHANAHAN

"I would like to improve the leadership of the entire team." SHANAHAN

"I don't know if (stripping C) is a solution. I think it's a cop-out, to a certain degree an easy way out."
SHANAHAN

"I want to help enhance the player and leader that Dion is." SHANAHAN #Leafs

On Phaneuf and #Leafs collapse: "There are certain times when less is more. Really felt that he was trying to be all things at once." Shanny

On #Leafs collapse: "I don't think anyone here just rolled over. I know there were times they were accused of that." SHANAHAN

"I've heard too many times in my life, talking about leadership, this team can't succeed with this leadership group. Until they do." SHANNY

"Big changes" my ass. Is there ANYTHING wrong with this team according to management?

 

[ShaneFalco]

You can find it here: http://www.thestar.com/authors.mcgran_kevin.html

Should we be surprised?!

 

[Dangles McGavin]

I’m fine one way or the other with keeping or trading Dion.

He’s a great player. The first half of this season was the best hockey he has ever played- an absolute force. He’s peaked physically but he’s becoming a more intelligent player. He just can’t be asked to do absolutely everything. He’s not the best defenseman in the league but I still think he’s top 15, quite easily. It wasn’t his fault alone that we collapsed, though he was playing some **** hockey.

Honestly, trading Kessel makes more sense to me than trading our #1D who we have no close replacement for. Something akin to the Nash trade, but Kessel should be worth significantly more than Nash as he is, well, significantly better (and younger!). Adding 2-3 young high-potential pieces in place of Phil would be the right direction to go I think.

 

[hotpaws]

"Big changes" my ass. Is there ANYTHING wrong with this team according to management?

I hear yea but i wouldn't expect him to say anything of substance in the media . I'm always hopeful something slips out but i'm usually disappointed .

We'll have to wait and see what develops between the end of the playoffs and after the first week of ufa season . That'll should give us a good view of the direction our mang team is going to take .

 

[ShaneFalco]

I don't think there's any chance they trade Kessel