Sportsnet: Leafs are Shopping Phaneuf - MOD WARNING #394

[JackJ]

Successful NHL teams don't pay soft one dimensional forwards 64 million over 8 years nor do they pay middling defensemen 49 million over 7 years.

 

[Swervin81]

The day this organization trades Dion Phaneuf and Phil Kessel is the day the Leafs become a better team on the ice. Not only will the Leafs ship out 15 million in cap space, they will also receive depth, prospects, and picks for these players in what is quite possibly, the perfect time to rebuild with a strong 2015 draft right around the corner.

These 2 players epitomize the Leafs in their current state perfectly. Soft, easy to play against, and crumbling under any sort of pressure.

Kessel has 21 points in 22 career playoff games... Dion, I won't argue, though.

 

[DD03]

Kessel has 21 points in 22 career playoff games... Dion, I won't argue, though.

Besides #'s, what has Kessel won in his life time? Ever? Besides cookies.

 

[Durrr]

Successful NHL teams don't pay soft one dimensional forwards 64 million over 8 years nor do they pay middling defensemen 49 million over 7 years.

Sigh...

Letang got more money then Dion and he isn't close to as good an overall player as him, I'd say Pittsburgh is a successful NHL team.

Kane is getting paid 6.5 right now, a cap hit % greater then Kessel when he signed it. When he is a UFA he's going to get the same deal if not more depending on the state of the cap. I'd say the Hawks are a pretty successful team eh.

Great argument sir. You can argue that these players are different all you want (and I'm sure you will), but it doesn't change the fact that it's not really different at all. Letang may have a enhanced offensive skill set then Dion uses now, and Kane may have flashy stick moves but its the same damn thing.

The difference is they include those players in a larger core of talented players, the leafs didn't.

 

[Trapper]

This doesn't even make any sense. Letang is being paid more and doesn't play an all-round game. Neither did Brian Campbell when signed by Chicago. This regurgitated argument that seems to pop around never had a shred of logic in it.

Guess what? Phaneuf got paid, because the market said so. You have a defenceman who can play in all situations. To expect him to post a GA On/ 60 of 1.50 with no two-way centre up front, poorly complemented at D is ridiculous. No one is expecting him to out perform Weber who interestingly posted significantly weaker advanced statistic metrics. Shea, by the way, is complemented by a much better D core and their forwards can largely play defence. Let's be honest here, assessing Dion's performance under this team is outright ridiculous.

Letang is being paid because his offense was on a Karlsson level. You get paid in this league if you are dynamite offensively on D, or stellar all around like a Doughty.
Phaneuf is a step down in the Girardi category.
Which D in this league make 7 million?
So tell me, you're paying Phaneuf 7 million, what do you think his new role should be? I see only one role. Getting help sure, but he's still paid to be the anchor is he not?

 

[Durrr]

Besides #'s, what has Kessel won in his life time? Ever? Besides cookies.

The Olympic forward of the tournament? The masterson? Childish argument lol

 

[Durrr]

Letang is being paid because his offense was on a Karlsson level. You get paid in this league if you are dynamite offensively on D, or stellar all around like a Doughty.
Phaneuf is a step down in the Girardi category.
Which D in this league make 7 million?
So tell me, you're paying Phaneuf 7 million, what do you think his new role should be? I see only one role. Getting help sure, but he's still paid to be the anchor is he not?

Ugh not sure why I even bother. Letang's offense and Dion's are pretty much on par their entire career(dalthough Letang has injury history keeping him back), seriously, do you even look the facts up your pretending to know? Letang has a NHL career high of 11 goals and 50 points, Dion has a career high 60 points and a 20 goal season.

Great argument.

 

[Diatomic]

Besides #'s, what has Kessel won in his life time? Ever? Besides cookies.

Waffles. He'll be eating alot of those next year though, when they start raining down onto the ice.

 

[Swervin81]

Besides #'s, what has Kessel won in his life time? Ever? Besides cookies.

Olympic silver in Vancouver and Olympic forward of the tournament in Sochi.

 

[DD03]

Olympic silver in Vancouver and Olympic forward of the tournament in Sochi.

I said besides numbers which is basically that was all about since the US didn't win...

I'm just saying. People who win in the NHL, have won just about everywhere they go. Phil doesn't have any really notable wins on his resume. Not even in college or younger then that.

All I'm saying.

 

[Durrr]

I said besides numbers which is basically that was all about since the US didn't win...

I'm just saying. People who win in the NHL, have won just about everywhere they go. Phil doesn't have any really notable wins on his resume. Not even in college or younger then that.

All I'm saying.

So now it's Kessel's fault that the USA can't match Canada's hockey development? Got it. Fully makes sense that a winger can win his team the Cup by himself.

 

[34]

Once Phaneuf is gone the team will instantly better. The losing culture and sense of entitlement will be gone.

I don't care if Shannahan gives him away and gets nothing in return. Just get him the **** out of here. He is a lazy #3-4 Dman.

 

[DD03]

So now it's Kessel's fault that the USA can't match Canada's hockey development? Got it. Fully makes sense that a winger can win his team the Cup by himself.

When did I say it was Kessel's fault that they lost? I said besides numbers. I didn't say it's his fault they lost. Never once mentioned Canada either.

And it's pretty clear it's going to take more then Kessel to win the Cup. The players around him need to make up for his lack of everything else besides offensive production..

 

[Durrr]

When did I say it was Kessel's fault that they lost? I said besides numbers. I didn't say it's his fault they lost. Never once mentioned Canada either.

You said winners win where ever they go, yet no one from the US has won a gold in the Olympics from the modern NHL. If you're using this as a point in your argument against Kessel then I can obviously point out the enormous flaw in the argument.

There is no player in the current NHL that can win without an outstanding cast of teammates. Look at Crosby, 3 points this playoffs ending in elimination. The pens, who have Malkin and Crosby, cannot get close to a cup repeat because they simply don't have the supporting cast to do so even with 2 of the best centers in the game. Why would this be any different for Kessel OR Dion, who plays on an awful team. 2 players is not enough people.

 

[DD03]

You said winners win where ever they go, yet no one from the US has won a gold in the Olympics from the modern NHL. If you're using this as a point in your argument against Kessel then I can obviously point out the enormous flaw in the argument.

I never once said it needed to include Olympic gold. I said in college or younger as well. Not sure what you're getting at.. All I was saying is that he hasn't won a thing in hockey. So he doesn't know what it takes to win.

What about Kessel tells you he wins?

 

[Trapper]

Ugh not sure why I even bother. Letang's offense and Dion's are pretty much on par their entire career(dalthough Letang has injury history keeping him back), seriously, do you even look the facts up your pretending to know? Letang has a NHL career high of 11 goals and 50 points, Dion has a career high 60 points and a 20 goal season.

Great argument.

You still didn't answer what Dion's new role should be. That was the response to the post. If you're frustrated it's because you seem to be taking it personal. What are we paying Phaneuf and Pittsburgh paying Letang to be then? Maybe Letang shouldn't be making 7 either.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Letang is being paid because his offense was on a Karlsson level. You get paid in this league if you are dynamite offensively on D, or stellar all around like a Doughty.
Phaneuf is a step down in the Girardi category.
Which D in this league make 7 million?
So tell me, you're paying Phaneuf 7 million, what do you think his new role should be? I see only one role. Getting help sure, but he's still paid to be the anchor is he not?

Pair Phaneuf with McDonagh and then have Staal on another pair then play him in front of King Henry and see how good he instantly becomes.

Meanwhile Phaneuf has had Kostka or Gunnarson as his partner, a weak 2nd pair and average goaltending most of his time in Toronto.

Phaneuf is much more valuable then Girardi and got paid more because of it.

 

[TMLegend]

When did I say it was Kessel's fault that they lost? I said besides numbers. I didn't say it's his fault they lost. Never once mentioned Canada either.

And it's pretty clear it's going to take more then Kessel to win the Cup. The players around him need to make up for his lack of everything else besides offensive production..

And therein lies the problem. No teams "go-to" forward have such deficiencies in his game. Look at all the top teams best players. They're all strong 200 foot players. Something Kessel is not.

 

[dimi78]

How long has that been a problem here? But then they go out and sign guys like Clarkson and trade for Bolland, and hope someone like Kostka or Holzer can just magically jump into the #2 spot.

I'm no fan of Gunnarsson in fact I think the Leafs dropped the ball last offseason to trade him while he holds some type of value and hoping for the same this offseason but this isn't about who's DP partner but more of sharring the work load of all the hard minutes through all 3 pairing that's the issue... Sutter out in Minnesota avg close to 30 min. of TOI and even he didn't face the hard minutes Phaneuf or even Gunnar did.

I've been calling out Carlyle and his micromanaging of the bench with this stupid 5 man shut down unit he matches hard game in and game out to the point Mcclememt gets 20 min of TOI on many nights as the single biggest issue collectively that has hurt his own team from playing the puck possession, up tempo forcheck game he claims is what's being pleaded to the players to play... Both Dion and Gunnar are products of the environment they're in as is ALL THE PLAYERS. Carlyle needed to change, stop the 5 man shutdown unit, role his lines more get everybody involved so they're confidant at both ends of the ice and to eliminate the shackles on PMD so this team could get it's flow and momentum going to forcheck, to spend more time in the offensive zone but he never did and the result was rope & dope hockey with overworked players and others underworked with confidence out the door... that the maligned D and defensive zone coverage gets blamed for when the coach gets in the way of momentum to play a 2 way game and keep his bench involved and confident. Offense is part of 2way hockey. Regardless that the team can score goals the way this team has been obstructed from the micromanaging of the bench the way this team played offensively was it's issue not the defensive zone that keeps on being ripped apart.

That there needs to be a culture change their needs that and it's the philosophy behind the bench that needs to change for the TEAM GAME TO IMPROVE. Can Carlyle change?

Well I guess we'll see cause I've said this before and I will say this again if Carlyle doesn't adjust away from the in game micromanagement of the bench and gets rid of the shackles on PMD NOTHING WILL CHANGE REGAURDLESS OF THE ROSTER... Don't believe me? Just watch Anaheim cause the Leafs are playing the same damn way Anaheim played when Carlyle was their and watched one of the games best players in Getzlaf get progressively worst in that environment as did the whole damn team until Carlyle was fired.

 

[Durrr]

You still didn't answer what Dion's new role should be. That was the response to the post. If you're frustrated it's because you seem to be taking it personal. What are we paying Phaneuf and Pittsburgh paying Letang to be then? Maybe Letang shouldn't be making 7 either.

I'm not taking it personal, I'm just trying to have a real discussion about a player on the leafs and people are throwing around untrue facts so I answer in kind.

Dion doesn't need a new role, he needs support in the role he has. Real support, not 3rd liners and AHL players. I don't think Letang is worth anything close to 7, but like Toronto, he is their guy and they paid him what the market would pay him.

 

[diceman934]

Ugh not sure why I even bother. Letang's offense and Dion's are pretty much on par their entire career(dalthough Letang has injury history keeping him back), seriously, do you even look the facts up your pretending to know? Letang has a NHL career high of 11 goals and 50 points, Dion has a career high 60 points and a 20 goal season.

Great argument.[/QUOTE]

Do you look up stats?

Letang last 4 years 205 games 152 pts....
Dion last 4 years 276 games 133 pts...

So in 71 more games Dion has 19 less points.

No where near the same amount of offense....

 

[Schennanigans]

Once Phaneuf is gone the team will instantly better. The losing culture and sense of entitlement will be gone.

I don't care if Shannahan gives him away and gets nothing in return. Just get him the **** out of here. He is a lazy #3-4 Dman.

If Phaneuf was traded and not replaced with someone as good or better, this team would have no chance at the playoffs. 3-4 defensemen? You clearly don't have a clue.

 

[Durrr]

Ugh not sure why I even bother. Letang's offense and Dion's are pretty much on par their entire career(dalthough Letang has injury history keeping him back), seriously, do you even look the facts up your pretending to know? Letang has a NHL career high of 11 goals and 50 points, Dion has a career high 60 points and a 20 goal season.

Great argument.[/QUOTE]

Do you look up stats?

Letang last 4 years 205 games 152 pts....
Dion last 4 years 276 games 133 pts...

So in 71 more games Dion has 19 less points.

No where near the same amount of offense....

Good job leaving out the years Dion played an offensive role like Letang does. When I say on par throughout their careers I mean at the same age. I clearly said on par their entire career and acknowledged letangs injury's holding him back from passing Dion, you can manipulate that as you wish.

 

[DD03]

If Phaneuf was traded and not replaced with someone as good or better, this team would have no chance at the playoffs. 3-4 defensemen? You clearly don't have a clue.

So true. Our whole team is full of 3-4 defensemen except for Dion. Rielly was getting up there and so was Gardiner near the end of the year, but Dion is the only top pairing defenseman we have.

 

[TMLegend]

Sigh...

Letang got more money then Dion and he isn't close to as good an overall player as him, I'd say Pittsburgh is a successful NHL team.

Kane is getting paid 6.5 right now, a cap hit % greater then Kessel when he signed it. When he is a UFA he's going to get the same deal if not more depending on the state of the cap. I'd say the Hawks are a pretty successful team eh.

Great argument sir. You can argue that these players are different all you want (and I'm sure you will), but it doesn't change the fact that it's not really different at all. Letang may have a enhanced offensive skill set then Dion uses now, and Kane may have flashy stick moves but its the same damn thing.

The difference is they include those players in a larger core of talented players, the leafs didn't.

When Kane got his 6.3M contract he had already won a stanley cup, and made the conference finals the season before. Since then he has won another Stanley cup, and Conn Smythe. If Chicago chooses to give Patrick Kane his 64 million I would say he has deserved it, no? Paying a player whose earned his contract and contributed to his teams sustainable success is something fans can get behind. Paying a player for yearly collapses is not something a smart organization does.