Sportsnet: Leafs are Shopping Phaneuf - MOD WARNING #394

[egd27]

You can find it here: http://www.thestar.com/authors.mcgran_kevin.html

Should we be surprised?!

And another 1000 posts come to nothing.

 

[TootooTrain]

"I don't know if (stripping C) is a solution. I think it's a cop-out, to a certain degree an easy way out."
SHANAHAN

"I want to help enhance the player and leader that Dion is." SHANAHAN #Leafs

Bring on the angry mobs and torches. Good on Shanny. Will he be dealt in the next 6-7 years, who knows, but now's not the time imo.

 

[diceman934]

I hear yea but i wouldn't expect him to say anything of substance in the media . I'm always hopeful something slips out but i'm usually disappointed .

We'll have to wait and see what develops between the end of the playoffs and after the first week of ufa season . That'll should give us a good view of the direction our mang team is going to take .

Eaxctly....it was hardly a glowing endorsement of Dion.

 

[gabeliscious]

Im not sure I want to go full out rebuild... But if we do, I would do something along the lines of

1) Trade Phaneuf for Yakupov
2) Trade Kessel for Seth Jones

Bernier, JVR, Jones, Rielly, Yakupov, Kadri, Gardiner, (whoever we pick 8th) would be a decent core.
Then we would probably also finish poorly next season getting another quality pick

i would make both trades but im not sure either edmonton or nashville makes those trades.

 

[colchar]

Im not sure I want to go full out rebuild... But if we do, I would do something along the lines of

1) Trade Phaneuf for Yakupov
2) Trade Kessel for Seth Jones

Bernier, JVR, Jones, Rielly, Yakupov, Kadri, Gardiner, (whoever we pick 8th) would be a decent core.
Then we would probably also finish poorly next season getting another quality pick

Yak has an attitude problem and is the last guy they need.

 

[Amadeus]

I don't like Phaneuf.

It's hard cheering for the team whose captain you don't like a lot.

 

[Bluelines]

I’m fine one way or the other with keeping or trading Dion.

He’s a great player. The first half of this season was the best hockey he has ever played- an absolute force. He’s peaked physically but he’s becoming a more intelligent player. He just can’t be asked to do absolutely everything. He’s not the best defenseman in the league but I still think he’s top 15, quite easily. It wasn’t his fault alone that we collapsed, though he was playing some **** hockey.

Honestly, trading Kessel makes more sense to me than trading our #1D who we have no close replacement for. Something akin to the Nash trade, but Kessel should be worth significantly more than Nash as he is, well, significantly better (and younger!). Adding 2-3 young high-potential pieces in place of Phil would be the right direction to go I think.

I agree, if trading a Phaneuf/Kessel gets us 2 or 3 solid blue chippers , I'd have no problem with that.

I wonder if Shanny's relationship with Holland and Yzerman makes Det/TBL the more likely trading partners?

 

[Bluelines]

Yak has an attitude problem and is the last guy they need.

Kadri ver 2.0.

 

[Bluelines]

Eaxctly....it was hardly a glowing endorsement of Dion.

It was hardly anything...

 

[hullsy47]

It was hardly anything...

shanny isnt dumb .in fact he probally asked as many of his freinds ,even some colleagues about most of yhe leafs roster ,his take on phaneuf ,like many others might be more value keeping him than ,lets say kessel,kessel 's marketablilty in US city would be be an attractive trade partner
shanny wasnt born yesterday ,one thing we have to give phaneuf ....he battled till the last whistle,he is always fit ,doesnt gert hurt alot ,sounds like a shanny kinda guy,
if shanny thinks kessel wil be front and center ,like a crosby ,or even the smallish montreal forwards who getting their nosed bloodied in a tough playoff series ......he ll be here ,if not he explore a trade
i like shanny ,he did throw carlyle or phaneuf under the bus ,nor did i expect it
but if u gret offered something from a team looking to change all star ..for all star you listen ,its how good clubs get better

 

[Schennanigans]

If we aren't trading Dion, than we need to surround him with better support so that he can succeed into a #2. And not ask him to be the #1 which he is not, but paid like one. My suggestion is to bring in a defender that can eat a lot of minutes and has some leadership qualities.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

If we aren't trading Dion, than we need to surround him with better support so that he can succeed into a #2. And not ask him to be the #1 which he is not, but paid like one. My suggestion is to bring in a defender that can eat a lot of minutes and has some leadership qualities.

So basically bringing in some one to do Dions job for him, for half the pay?

 

[ShaneFalco]

If we aren't trading Dion, than we need to surround him with better support so that he can succeed into a #2. And not ask him to be the #1 which he is not, but paid like one. My suggestion is to bring in a defender that can eat a lot of minutes and has some leadership qualities.

How long has that been a problem here? But then they go out and sign guys like Clarkson and trade for Bolland, and hope someone like Kostka or Holzer can just magically jump into the #2 spot.

 

[Confucius]

So basically bringing in some one to do Dions job for him, for half the pay?

Ofcourse, and we may as well get two while we're at it.

 

[Commander Clueless]

"I want to help enhance the player and leader that Dion is." SHANAHAN #Leafs

By shipping his ass out West, obviously.


Don't see how anyone could get anything else out of Shanny's comments, to be honest.

 

[TheScruffington]

If we aren't trading Dion, than we need to surround him with better support so that he can succeed into a #2. And not ask him to be the #1 which he is not, but paid like one. My suggestion is to bring in a defender that can eat a lot of minutes and has some leadership qualities.

This kind of thinking gets us nowhere. Bringing in players from other teams to address immediate problems just creates more problems. It's what we've been doing for years and we've gone in circles.

 

[Schennanigans]

This kind of thinking gets us nowhere. Bringing in players from other teams to address immediate problems just creates more problems. It's what we've been doing for years and we've gone in circles.

We'll you either need to trade him and if that's not gonna happen than you help him succeed.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

The team is in no mans right now with Dion.

-5th last two seasons ago

-Made the playoffs last year but largely cause of special teams. Having the 2nd best PK was unsustainable as was the depth created by AHLers who got a jump on the rest of the league like Kostka, Fraser, Komarov.

-8th last this past season

Horrible advanced stats no matter what statline you choose to look at whether it be shot differential, CORSI, etc.

Toronto is at a cross roads with Dion. I can see the reasons to keep him but then you have to ask yourself what are you winning with him in the next few years and could he just be another Bryan McCabe or Sheldon Souray in their early 30s level Dman in a few short years when we need really need him.

OR

Do we deal him for valuable futures, gain cap space, suck that extra little bit to gain a higher draft pick. If we go this route it'll be more short term pain but there is also a lot more potential upside.

His shooting differential was twice as strong as Gunnarsson. His GA On/ 60 was stronger than Shea Weber. Yes, Gunnarsson's GA On/ 60 is stronger, but offensive contributors are more likely to go out of position than a more defensive counterpart. Phaneuf was hardly the missing link and is the main reason why we had a playoff spot. Advanced statistics tells us that Bozak was a total let down giving up >3.26 goals over 60 minutes. JVR did as well, but I can see him developing a Sharp-like defensive game.

I also think that the requirements by a number here are outright unrealistic. It's a bit of a grass is greener scenario, because now we're hearing how Kruger, Saad, etc as defensively-first elite studs ( they're not) even though we have complementary pieces ( via Marlies) that could easily compare with the best. Our limitation is clearly our top six, who can't defence. Namely, lacking that two-way top centre, and, no, there isn't anything spectacular defensively-speaking about Chicago's 2nd, 3rd or 4th lines.

Chicago's defensive prowess comes from their top line ( Sharp - Toews - Hossa) and their defensively strong first ( Keith - Seabrook) and second pairing ( Hjalmarsson - Oduya). I doubt that Kessel will be as proficient as Toews defensively, but he gave up as much goals ( GA ON/ 60) as Marleau even when used against the top possession lines. Carlyle, by the way, is a line matching nut so he did try it out when Bolland was injured.

While it is true that some may argue that Handzus's defensive prowess is missing, someone like Legwand can easily fit that bill. You got Versteeg in a "third line" role and we all know how terrible he is when it comes to puck battles. He'd fit in quite well with this team, in fact. Shaw is someone we don't have ( unless we sign Komarov), but he's injured and yet Chicago is doing fine. His replacement Nordstrom has a two-way game resembling D'Amigo/ Carrick, but those two actually use their body.

 

[TMLegend]

The day this organization trades Dion Phaneuf and Phil Kessel is the day the Leafs become a better team on the ice. Not only will the Leafs ship out 15 million in cap space, they will also receive depth, prospects, and picks for these players in what is quite possibly, the perfect time to rebuild with a strong 2015 draft right around the corner.

These 2 players epitomize the Leafs in their current state perfectly. Soft, easy to play against, and crumbling under any sort of pressure.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

And another 1000 posts come to nothing.

We have a pretty hilarious positions being taken. You have posters who view Phaneuf as a complementary piece, but Carlyle as a great coach. Seeing that Randy has been using Phaneuf extensively on the D-end, and will continue to do that, I can't see him being moved if we're trying to compete.

Most have fantasies of Gardiner replacing Dion, but Carlyle has consistently sheltered him. His best games against Boston was when he was treated as an offensive defenceman. Like Yandle who could probably produce 70 points on this team, expecting him to play in all situations isn't required. ]

Keeping Phaneuf will mean that he needs to be better complimented. Either we hope that Gardiner/ Rielly can play a Keith/ Niedermayer role while Phaneuf plays a strict stay-at-home role, or we acquire someone else. Gunnarsson has played well and we may need to consider pairing him with Granberg. That pair would more closely resemble Chicago's second pair. One of Gardiner or Rielly could play a Leddy role with Ranger on his natural side playing a Brookbank-role.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

If Phaneuf is dealt for futures then dealing guys like Franson, Lupul, Gunnarson, Gleason and potentially Kadri (depending if they see him as a long term solution) this off-season and next season would also be happening.

We'd also be bringing in some vets who could later be recycled like we did with Versteeg, Beauchemin, Lombardi, etc.

Kessel-Bernier-JVR-Rielly is what we'd have to build around.

Trading Dion in the short term would absolutely hurt and their are no guarantees that dealing him would work out for us. However, keeping him also comes with low upside.

As an example of how dealing a big ticket player can actually help turn around a franchise would you rather be the Blue Jackets with Rick Nash making 7.8 million right now?

OR

The Blue Jackets with 1st rounder (Kerby Rychel), Dubinsky (4.2), Anisimov (3.28) + having enough cap space to sign Nash's replacement in Horton last off-season and sucking enough to get the 2nd overall draft Ryan Murray two drafts ago?

The Blue Jackets did make some other moves but the Nash deal really was a big part of what looks like their teams turning it around and it was considered a bad return at the time.

Dealing a big ticket player like Phaneuf wouldn't just come with extra assets, it would also come with a lot of extra cap space to rededicate.

No matter what happens with Phaneuf this team is a few years from being good and I've argued to keep him but just as easily see how we could greatly benefit long term by trading him.

You're knocking the Jackets , while going around and defending the shape our teams in .

So in your mind they are a Cup contender?

Cup contender? No, that's a stretch. Better shape with more young talent than the Leafs? Yes, very likely.

 

[Durrr]

The day this organization trades Dion Phaneuf and Phil Kessel is the day the Leafs become a better team on the ice. Not only will the Leafs ship out 15 million in cap space, they will also receive depth, prospects, and picks for these players in what is quite possibly, the perfect time to rebuild with a strong 2015 draft right around the corner.

These 2 players epitomize the Leafs in their current state perfectly. Soft, easy to play against, and crumbling under any sort of pressure.

Show me any successful team in the league where 1 player can drive an offense and 1 player the defense. It's not Dion and Kessels fault management built a one trick pony team. Finally we at least have some youth coming with support and everyone wants to trade them.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

There is no other role for Phaneuf. He's being paid to be the no. 1 D. He's not Tyler Bozak who is being used as a no. 1 C when we all know he isn't. Bozak is also getting paid as a no. 2 C. Same with Gunnarsson. He's getting paid in line with a 2nd pair D but being asked to be Phaneuf's partner on the top pair while Dion makes 7 million. Ok. Moving Phaneuf to the 2nd pair is not an option and finding a true no. 1 D is not going to happen soon either.

This doesn't even make any sense. Letang is being paid more and doesn't play an all-round game. Neither did Brian Campbell when signed by Chicago. This regurgitated argument that seems to pop around never had a shred of logic in it.

Guess what? Phaneuf got paid, because the market said so. You have a defenceman who can play in all situations. To expect him to post a GA On/ 60 of 1.50 with no two-way centre up front, poorly complemented at D is ridiculous. No one is expecting him to out perform Weber who interestingly posted significantly weaker advanced statistic metrics. Shea, by the way, is complemented by a much better D core and their forwards can largely play defence. Let's be honest here, assessing Dion's performance under this team is outright ridiculous.

 

[Durrr]

This doesn't even make any sense. Letang is being paid more and doesn't play an all-round game. Neither did Brian Campbell when signed by Chicago. This regurgitated argument that seems to pop around never had a shred of logic in it.

Guess what? Phaneuf got paid, because the market said so. You have a defenceman who can play in all situations. To expect him to post a GA On/ 60 of 1.50 with no two-way centre up front, poorly complemented at D is ridiculous. No one is expecting him to out perform Weber who interestingly posted significantly weaker advanced statistic metrics. Shea, by the way, is complemented by a much better D core and their forwards can largely play defence. Let's be honest here, assessing Dion's performance under this team is outright ridiculous.

Get out of here with your real knowledge and facts. Didn't anyone tell you people only come here to tell you why their own opinions are right?



But seriously, good post.

 

[TMLegend]

Show me any successful team in the league where 1 player can drive an offense and 1 player the defense. It's not Dion and Kessels fault management built a one trick pony team. Finally we at least have some youth coming with support and everyone wants to trade them.

Successful NHL teams don't pay soft one dimensional forwards 64 million over 8 years nor do they pay middling defensemen 49 million over 7 years.