News Article: Leafs Analysis at Centre - Kadri,Bolland,Bozak

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
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2,151
Low hockey IQ, allergic to physicality, poor defensively, stone hands, and a lack of creativity. Sign me up for that 1st liner....

facts are facts. Bozak isn't good.

also, I look forward to this season of willing this clown out of Toronto. Never should've been re-signed in the first place.
 

rojac

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Apr 5, 2007
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Would it be possible to get a "Blog Post" prefix, so that people don't open threads like this expecting a real news article?
 

GrizzLeaf

Registered Bear
Aug 13, 2010
4,352
984
Quebec
So many things that made me go :facepalm: I will try and point them all out ;)

First off, SURPRISE!!! An article that set out to make Bozak look bad succeeded (stat picking is pretty easy isn't it).

Next his selection of centers used in my opinion is off. He went after choosing centers with an offensively slanted role by looking at a ratio of PP to SH faceoffs. Why the offensive zone start % stat wasn't used here instead I'm not sure. I can see the methodology, but the other stat is so much easier to get :P The cutoff ratio used also was 0.75, which to me is a red flag. The writer wanted offensively slanted centers, but is willing to take centers that have taken more SH faceoffs than PP? My guess for this is because Bozak was a little over 0.75 and not above 1 which is why 0.75 was used.

Next he says he will ignore the on ice sv% for that player when on the ice because he doesn't play goal. That stat does however usually give a pretty good indication of how a players defensive abilities are. Why isn't this stat used? Probably because Bozak has a good on ice sv%.

Then he starts using some Fenwick (imagine that, using Fenwick in his calculation to prove Bozak is bad when everyone knows that the Leafs have had a bad Fenwick the last couple years) calculation and says "there is SOME randomness in this calculation's results, but the idea is that over the long term that randomness would wash out" but then proceeds to use only the games from 2011-2013, in other words, 1 and a half seasons. By the way, thought I would add here that his list of 72 top 6 centers includes a number of people I wouldn't consider a top 6 center and even more people who don't play center.

Further I'm still confused by this part: "Just an aside on this point - maybe this helps explain WHY Chicago had Bolland as their 3rd C? Just a suggestion that maybe the Stanley Cup champions, who have won multiple times in recent years, and do well according to fancy stats, know more about his value than the Leafs?"
Last I checked we aren't playing Bolland as a top 6 C for most games and you just have to follow the leafs for a bit to understand it's not so much as a top 6 but rather a top 9.

Then for the defensive side he does some Corsi regression calculation thing. This time instead of using the 2011-2013 stats like above (since that would be good for comparison sake), he uses the stats since 2007. This way Bozak can be ranked 678th out of 712 forwards. He then proceeds to mention Bolland is 600th in the same ranking as if to take a shot at him too. But wasn't Bolland wildly considered to be one of the best 3rd line centers (ie defensive centers) for a few of these years? Wouldn't that indicate that the rankings mean squat? Or you could also look at it as the best defensive players are near the bottom of this list with Bolland meaning Bozak is good? ;)

The the article concludes with "I think there's really only one obvious option here - and that's to make Kadri the top line C for the future... and the future is now."
In the last couple games, yes, it appears that Kadri can play top line center duties with Kessel and JVR and produce at a slightly higher pace. But at the same time, what have our other lines done in those games? When Kadri is with Kessel we largely become a 1 line team. Yes, yes, we still have people like Lupul and Clarkson and Raymond on the other lines, but they are not nearly as productive when Kadri isn't playing with them. Spread the offense out.


tl;dr, I have issues with the article :laugh:


Good break down.

I started getting suspicious while reading that blog right around the time I noticed he was cherry picking the stats that were unfavourable to Bozak. Not saying the "Bozak sucks as a first line C" discussion doesn't have merit, but if you want to convince me, use real logic.

That blogger is just another hater that's good at using smoke and mirrors. Just make sure you pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.:sarcasm:
 

DD03

3D
Mar 15, 2010
21,734
9
So many things that made me go :facepalm: I will try and point them all out ;)

First off, SURPRISE!!! An article that set out to make Bozak look bad succeeded (stat picking is pretty easy isn't it).

Next his selection of centers used in my opinion is off. He went after choosing centers with an offensively slanted role by looking at a ratio of PP to SH faceoffs. Why the offensive zone start % stat wasn't used here instead I'm not sure. I can see the methodology, but the other stat is so much easier to get :P The cutoff ratio used also was 0.75, which to me is a red flag. The writer wanted offensively slanted centers, but is willing to take centers that have taken more SH faceoffs than PP? My guess for this is because Bozak was a little over 0.75 and not above 1 which is why 0.75 was used.

Next he says he will ignore the on ice sv% for that player when on the ice because he doesn't play goal. That stat does however usually give a pretty good indication of how a players defensive abilities are. Why isn't this stat used? Probably because Bozak has a good on ice sv%.

Then he starts using some Fenwick (imagine that, using Fenwick in his calculation to prove Bozak is bad when everyone knows that the Leafs have had a bad Fenwick the last couple years) calculation and says "there is SOME randomness in this calculation's results, but the idea is that over the long term that randomness would wash out" but then proceeds to use only the games from 2011-2013, in other words, 1 and a half seasons. By the way, thought I would add here that his list of 72 top 6 centers includes a number of people I wouldn't consider a top 6 center and even more people who don't play center.

Further I'm still confused by this part: "Just an aside on this point - maybe this helps explain WHY Chicago had Bolland as their 3rd C? Just a suggestion that maybe the Stanley Cup champions, who have won multiple times in recent years, and do well according to fancy stats, know more about his value than the Leafs?"
Last I checked we aren't playing Bolland as a top 6 C for most games and you just have to follow the leafs for a bit to understand it's not so much as a top 6 but rather a top 9.

Then for the defensive side he does some Corsi regression calculation thing. This time instead of using the 2011-2013 stats like above (since that would be good for comparison sake), he uses the stats since 2007. This way Bozak can be ranked 678th out of 712 forwards. He then proceeds to mention Bolland is 600th in the same ranking as if to take a shot at him too. But wasn't Bolland wildly considered to be one of the best 3rd line centers (ie defensive centers) for a few of these years? Wouldn't that indicate that the rankings mean squat? Or you could also look at it as the best defensive players are near the bottom of this list with Bolland meaning Bozak is good? ;)

The the article concludes with "I think there's really only one obvious option here - and that's to make Kadri the top line C for the future... and the future is now."
In the last couple games, yes, it appears that Kadri can play top line center duties with Kessel and JVR and produce at a slightly higher pace. But at the same time, what have our other lines done in those games? When Kadri is with Kessel we largely become a 1 line team. Yes, yes, we still have people like Lupul and Clarkson and Raymond on the other lines, but they are not nearly as productive when Kadri isn't playing with them. Spread the offense out.


tl;dr, I have issues with the article :laugh:

Your 2nd beauty post in under 24 hours. I like it.
 

Dr Turk

Registered User
Jul 4, 2008
6,452
0
Toronto
Bashing Bozak is PPP and TLN's shtick.

How many times are they going to beat their visitors over the head with this vendetta? I've long since unfollowed them. They're obsessed with "I told you so" vindication.

100% agreed, I've had to unfollow PPP, Jeffler, Steve Dangle and that whole annoying crew. They think they're edgy or funny or something by making stupid little snide remarks about Bozak every other tweet. Was getting unbearable.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,034
2,151
So.. let me get this straight... when 65 game samples and cherry picked stats were convenient to tear down Grabovski, and clearly showed he wasn't capable of playing on this team, a lot of you folks could get behind it, but this time, there's an issue with it, because...... ...... Yeah, we all love a little irony.
 

Auzzie19

Registered User
Mar 10, 2011
1,826
0
The North
So.. let me get this straight... when 65 game samples and cherry picked stats were convenient to tear down Grabovski, and clearly showed he wasn't capable of playing on this team, a lot of you folks could get behind it, but this time, there's an issue with it, because...... ...... Yeah, we all love a little irony.

:clap:
 

Diatomic

Mitch Matthewlander
Mar 12, 2013
9,178
81
Air Canada Centre
100% agreed, I've had to unfollow PPP, Jeffler, Steve Dangle and that whole annoying crew. They think they're edgy or funny or something by making stupid little snide remarks about Bozak every other tweet. Was getting unbearable.

Don Cherry called Bozak a Plugger too, are you going to stop watching Coaches Corner?
 

rojac

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Don Cherry called Bozak a Plugger too, are you going to stop watching Coaches Corner?

Do you remember which Coach's Corner (not Coaches Corner) it was? I'd like to hear the comment in context. But if I had to guess, I'd say that Don was complimenting Bozak as a hard worker -- one who plugs away.

Not that I care much at all about what Don Cherry says.
 

Crispy Crust

Registered User
Jul 6, 2007
18,250
996
Toronto
So.. let me get this straight... when 65 game samples and cherry picked stats were convenient to tear down Grabovski, and clearly showed he wasn't capable of playing on this team, a lot of you folks could get behind it, but this time, there's an issue with it, because...... ...... Yeah, we all love a little irony.

The hypocrisy here is amazing.
 

rojac

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So.. let me get this straight... when 65 game samples and cherry picked stats were convenient to tear down Grabovski, and clearly showed he wasn't capable of playing on this team, a lot of you folks could get behind it, but this time, there's an issue with it, because...... ...... Yeah, we all love a little irony.

So, why don't you track down the posters who did that to Grabo and PM them your Bozak bashing instead of making all of us suffer through your vendetta?
 

Crispy Crust

Registered User
Jul 6, 2007
18,250
996
Toronto
Do you remember which Coach's Corner (not Coaches Corner) it was? I'd like to hear the comment in context. But if I had to guess, I'd say that Don was complimenting Bozak as a hard worker -- one who plugs away.

Not that I care much at all about what Don Cherry says.

Do you not have a problem with an NHL franchise handing out a long-term deal to a replacement level talent?
 

Dr Turk

Registered User
Jul 4, 2008
6,452
0
Toronto
Don Cherry called Bozak a Plugger too, are you going to stop watching Coaches Corner?

Does Don Cherry run a Parody twitter account pretending to be Bozak? Does Don Cherry manage to bring up Bozak every coaches corner whether it is relevant or not?

I'm just saying, if these guys want any air of legitimacy they need drop the Bozak obsession and stop trying so hard to be cynical and edgy.
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,034
2,151
So, why don't you track down the posters who did that to Grabo and PM them your Bozak bashing instead of making all of us suffer through your vendetta?

Because that mass of people made every other fan suffer all year. Get used to it. Until we replace him with someone more capable, you're probably going to hear about it.

my "vendetta" is to replace a sub-par, overpaid passenger, with someone who will improve this hockey club.

Putting Kadri where he belongs, on the 1st line, was step one. Getting rid of the great white hype is step two.
 

DD03

3D
Mar 15, 2010
21,734
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Does Don Cherry run a Parody twitter account pretending to be Bozak? Does Don Cherry manage to bring up Bozak every coaches corner whether it is relevant or not?

I'm just saying, if these guys want any air of legitimacy they need drop the Bozak obsession and stop trying so hard to be cynical and edgy.

Exactly.

Not only that but everyone knows Bozak isn't our true #1. Kadri will be. We need to spread around the offense, without Kadri on that 2nd line, they haven't done much. That top line has carried us, with or without Bozak..

People make it sound like this guy is getting paid out of the wazoo. Don't forget, this guy gets LESS then Komisarek and he's not in the press box every game.
 

Diatomic

Mitch Matthewlander
Mar 12, 2013
9,178
81
Air Canada Centre
Do you remember which Coach's Corner (not Coaches Corner) it was? I'd like to hear the comment in context. But if I had to guess, I'd say that Don was complimenting Bozak as a hard worker -- one who plugs away.

Not that I care much at all about what Don Cherry says.

Don Cherry didn't say it in coach's corner he said it during a interview at some event after the leafs signed Bozak to his 21million dollar contract.

“I mean, there’s a classic case of overpaying a guy. Ridiculous. He’s a plugger, he’s playing with (Phil) Kessel and he can’t get 20 goals. You could get 20 goals playing with Kessel (laugh).”

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2013/07/09/cherry-calls-bozak-a-plugger-says-leafs-overpaid/
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,034
2,151
Exactly.

Not only that but everyone knows Bozak isn't our true #1. Kadri will be. We need to spread around the offense, without Kadri on that 2nd line, they haven't done much. That top line has carried us, with or without Bozak..

People make it sound like this guy is getting paid out of the wazoo. Don't forget, this guy gets LESS then Komisarek and he's not in the press box every game.

He's overpaid. I don't care what Komi makes. He's not on the ice, dragging our level of play down.

Bozak's stint in the press box has been fruitful.
 

rojac

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Do you not have a problem with an NHL franchise handing out a long-term deal to a replacement level talent?

When it comes right down to it, no.

Things like salaries and cap hits are fun to discuss from time to time, but in the end, why would I care about something that I have absolutely no control over and has little or no impact on my life.
 

Grant

LL Genius
Jan 16, 2012
14,193
1
London
Exactly.

Not only that but everyone knows Bozak isn't our true #1. Kadri will be. We need to spread around the offense, without Kadri on that 2nd line, they haven't done much. That top line has carried us, with or without Bozak..

People make it sound like this guy is getting paid out of the wazoo. Don't forget, this guy gets LESS then Komisarek and he's not in the press box every game.

In the last 2 games there have been 2 even strength goals where the kessel line wasn't on the ice. And one of those was almost immediately after a leafs powerplay ended, and Kadri assisted it :laugh:

The team as a whole in my opinion would score less if Kadri and Bozak switched places.
 

DD03

3D
Mar 15, 2010
21,734
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He's overpaid. I don't care what Komi makes. He's not on the ice, dragging our level of play down.

Bozak's stint in the press box has been fruitful.

He was. That's the point.

Why is it that NHL GMs and coaches seem to think Bozak is fine where he is? What do they know that we don't?
 

Dr Turk

Registered User
Jul 4, 2008
6,452
0
Toronto
In the last 2 games there have been 2 even strength goals where the kessel line wasn't on the ice. And one of those was almost immediately after a leafs powerplay ended, and Kadri assisted it :laugh:

The team as a whole in my opinion would score less if Kadri and Bozak switched places.

Yep, our top 6 looks a hell of a lot better with Bozak in the line up than out.
 

Crispy Crust

Registered User
Jul 6, 2007
18,250
996
Toronto
Yep, our top 6 looks a hell of a lot better with Bozak in the line up than out.

It looks a lot better with him off of it. He doesn't add anything to this team. There are so many guys like Bozak out there who could do the same thing he does at a fraction of the cost.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
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When it comes right down to it, no.

Things like salaries and cap hits are fun to discuss from time to time, but in the end, why would I care about something that I have absolutely no control over and has little or no impact on my life.

How can you win the Internet with an attitude like that?

This is how it's done.

Because that mass of people made every other fan suffer all year. Get used to it. Until we replace him with someone more capable, you're probably going to hear about it.

my "vendetta" is to replace a sub-par, overpaid passenger, with someone who will improve this hockey club.

Putting Kadri where he belongs, on the 1st line, was step one. Getting rid of the great white hype is step two.

:laugh:
 

ErnieLeafs

Registered User
Apr 7, 2009
12,034
2,151
He was. That's the point.

Why is it that NHL GMs and coaches seem to think Bozak is fine where he is? What do they know that we don't?

They make mistakes all the time, don't they?
Claiming the infallibility of coaching and management, when all evidence points in the opposite direction of one's argument, is quite common.
 

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