Post-Game Talk: Leafs 2 - Pens 5 - Geno Drank too many Coronas

[ChaosAgent]

Well that's still part of the discussion. OV takes a ton more shots per game - he's going to have a lot of goals even if he's not as good at scoring goals as someone who shoots less.

It's incredible what he's done in his career, but he's not the best goal scorer of all time. He may accumulate the most and maybe the distinction doesn't matter to other people but it does to me anyway.

IDK, man. I compartmentalize it to allow for the accumulating. Like Hank Aaron is the "Home Run King" even though objectively Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle were better home run hitters - and better overall players.

Home runs are a bit messy given that Ruth is clearly the greatest there + all the roids fellows including Bonds. But I think they are the closest thing to goals in terms of how people conceptualize the all-time list.

If someone wants to argue with me that Ovi is the better player than Sid or Mario, I ain't having that. But I'll give them the "goalscorer" thing.

 

[XanderCrews34]

IDK, man. I compartmentalize it to allow for the accumulating. Like Hank Aaron is the "Home Run King" even though objectively Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle were better home run hitters - and better overall players.

Home runs are a bit messy given that Ruth is clearly the greatest there + all the roids fellows including Bonds. But I think they are the closest thing to goals in terms of how people conceptualize the all-time list.

If someone wants to argue with me that Ovi is the better player than Sid or Mario, I ain't having that. But I'll give them the "goalscorer" thing.

Yeah I mean I can see your point. I tend to have this mindset across all sports.

"Best" vs. "Most Accomplished" (like Barry Sanders being the best RB of all time even though he's not the rushing leader, Marino being the best QB of all time even though guys now are passing him in stats, etc.)

Ultimately, yeah, stat accumulation carries a lot of the weight when it comes to legacy. But I just will die on the hill that there's a difference between "best" and "most accomplished" even though arguing that distinction annoys people sometimes.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Part of being a goalscoring involves a shot-first mentality. Something Ovechkin has certainly never lacked. And a lot of those low-percentage shots are due to the fact that Washington deliberately has constructed their entire powerplay around Ovechkin's shot. For over a decade.

Also you're leaving out goalie equipment size changes. League shooting percentage has gone way down since the 80s. It was 12% in '87-88 and 9% now. Big difference.

I think Mario is the more talented/better player than Ovechkin in basically every way but part of being greatest is actually doing the thing. Ovechkin is probably going to pass Gretzky on raw goal totals and Howe on era-adjusted goal totals. I can't debate that.

And you aren’t accounting for comp sticks so...

My shot is absolutely wicked with a comp stick and it was never anything special with wood... and I don’t have my Popeye forearms anymore like I did in my 20s. I can only imagine using a low point kick comp in my 20s..

Now put that in Lemieux’s hands his entire career instead of a soggy oak tree.

There is no getting around the fact it took AO 2k more shots to reach the same totals.

Lemieux came back smack in the middle of the dead puck era and over sized goalies, after taking three years off, and shot 20% at 35 years of age.

He was a freak and AO will never be able to touch him as a sniper and pure goal scorer.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'll give them that OV is the ugliest player to have a rabid cult following since Mike Ricci. That's all I'm giving the shitheel.

 

[XanderCrews34]

I'll give them that OV is the ugliest player to have a rabid cult following since Mike Ricci. That's all I'm giving the shitheel.

And really in the end this is probably the right answer. No need to overcomplicate.

 

[ChaosAgent]

And you aren’t accounting for comp sticks so...

My shot is absolutely wicked with a comp stick and it was never anything special with wood... and I don’t have my Popeye forearms anymore like I did in my 20s. I can only imagine using a low point kick comp in my 20s..

Now put that in Lemieux’s hands his entire career instead of a soggy oak tree.

There is no getting around the fact it took AO 2k more shots to reach the same totals.

Lemieux came back smack in the middle of the dead puck era and over sized goalies, after taking three years off, and shot 20% at 35 years of age.

He was a freak and AO will never be able to touch him as a sniper and pure goal scorer.

• I just think adjusted goals accounts for all of that. And Ovechkin will be on top there pretty soon.
• Lemieux is a far better player than AO. Like not even in same ballpark.
• AO is an accumulator as compared to Mario. No denying that.
• Better goal-scorer =/= Greater goal-scorer

Like @XanderCrews34 said: "best doesn't mean most accomplished." We're saying the same thing.

 

[ncm7772]

Watching this Sportsnet thing about Matthews, seeing him carry a man-purse just...yeah.

Ugh, seriously? Respect gone.

Crosby is 6th best all time PPG Leader. Malkin is 14th.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Points Per Game | Hockey-Reference.com

When you consider that their entire careers spanned one of the lowest scoring eras in NHL history the achievement means even more.

This is the stat I use when people (I know people personally who think this) say "Crosby isn't that good." Mind you, they aren't friends.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

• I just think adjusted goals accounts for all of that. And Ovechkin will be on top there pretty soon.
• Lemieux is a far better player than AO. Like not even in same ballpark.
• AO is an accumulator as compared to Mario. No denying that.
• Better goal-scorer =/= Greater goal-scorer

Like @XanderCrews34 said: "best doesn't mean most accomplished." We're saying the same thing.

I don’t buy into the adjusted goals stuff.. especially with a once in a lifetime freak like Lemieux.

As I said, he took off for three years, came back with a bad back, right in the middle of the most boring, smothering NHL I’ve ever seen, and dropped 35 goals in 43 games on only 171 shots.

He could do it in any era, with an oak tree in his hands or those shitty, pingy ass first generation Synergy comps he used that season.

Also, saying best and most accomplished are different doesn't add up... it’s splitting hairs.

If you need 2k more shots to have the same goal totals as someone, that isn’t a bigger accomplishment nor are you even close to being the better pure goal scorer.

 

[LOGiK]

Watching this Sportsnet thing about Matthews, seeing him carry a man-purse just...yeah.

 

[Khelandros]

List of players better than Ovechkin at goal scoring:
Minimum 800 shots

1. Craig Simpson, 23.66%
2. Charlie Simmer, 22.34%
3. Paul MacLean, 21.41%
4. Mike Bossy, 21.18%
5. Yvon Lambert, 19.85%
6. Rick Middleton, 19.69%
7. Blaine Stoughton, 19.52%
8. Darryl Sutter, 19.42%
9. Rob Brown, 19.41%
10. Mike Ridley, 19.30%
11. Steve Vickers, 19.28%
12. Kent Nilsson, 19.21%
13. Tom McCarthy, 19.16%
14. Jari Kurri, 19.13%
15. Johnny Bucyk, 19.09%
16. Mario Lemieux, 18.99%
17. Peter Stastny, 18.96%
18. Ray Ferraro, 18.85%
19. Mark Hunter, 18.78%
20. Tim Kerr, 18.77%

Gretzky is at 41 with 17.6% and Ovechkin is 427th with 12.7%.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don’t buy into the adjusted goals stuff.. especially with a once in a lifetime freak like Lemieux.

As I said, he took off for three years, came back with a bad back, right in the middle of the most boring, smothering NHL I’ve ever seen, and dropped 35 goals in 43 games on only 171 shots.

He could do it in any era, with an oak tree in his hands or those shitty, pingy ass first generation Synergy comps he used that season.

Also, saying best and most accomplished are different doesn't add up... it’s splitting hairs.

If you need 2k more shots to have the same goal totals as someone, that isn’t a bigger accomplishment nor are you even close to being the better pure goal scorer.

Adjusted goals is accounting for the average scoring of the era. Which measures the technology proliferation on both sticks/skates and goalie gear. And notably captures the differences in scoring due to defensive prowess and player depth.

The only thing I don't agree with is roster sizes being taken into account, but that wouldn't affect Ovechkin vs. Lemieux. It maybe DOES favor Ovechkin vs. Howe though so that gives me a bit of pause.

Mario was amazing in '00-'01. No one argues this. Mario is more talented and a better player than Ovechkin. No one argues this.

"Also, saying best and most accomplished are different doesn't add up... it’s splitting hairs."
There are many cases in athletics (injury/luck) and the arts (addiction/insanity/death/luck) where the best are not the most accomplished. I don't have a problem splitting those hairs.

 

[ChaosAgent]

List of players better than Ovechkin at goal scoring:
Minimum 800 shots

1. Craig Simpson, 23.66%
2. Charlie Simmer, 22.34%
3. Paul MacLean, 21.41%
4. Mike Bossy, 21.18%
5. Yvon Lambert, 19.85%
6. Rick Middleton, 19.69%
7. Blaine Stoughton, 19.52%
8. Darryl Sutter, 19.42%
9. Rob Brown, 19.41%
10. Mike Ridley, 19.30%
11. Steve Vickers, 19.28%
12. Kent Nilsson, 19.21%
13. Tom McCarthy, 19.16%
14. Jari Kurri, 19.13%
15. Johnny Bucyk, 19.09%
16. Mario Lemieux, 18.99%
17. Peter Stastny, 18.96%
18. Ray Ferraro, 18.85%
19. Mark Hunter, 18.78%
20. Tim Kerr, 18.77%

Gretzky is at 41 with 17.6% and Ovechkin is 427th with 12.7%.

Hm. Looks like Mario is a worse goal scorer than Robbie Brown. But only by .42% so it's close at least.

 

[madinsomniac]

Anybody who elevates AO over Lemieux in goalscoring is simply stuck in recency bias... if he played with older stick technology all those super quick snipes that barely beat the goaltenders would be saves... and he already has a fairly pedestrian shooting percentage even for this day and age...


AO is a great goals scorer the way art monk was a great wr... yeah he belongs in the hall of fame, and yes he is a fantastic one dimensional winger, but seriously he is a shot factory on a team that revolves around feeding him the puck....


If you said you had to bet your house on one player to score a goal on a breakaway.... ovie doesn’t really even make the top 10 on that, right... top 20? This supposedly all time goalscorer is 204th all time in shootout goal percentage... and thats with the minimum criteria applied....

if you said you are getting one shot to snipe the puck with a fiberglass stick ... is he even in the top 5 there?

Lets not even approach the fact that he never had to play against the ridiculous goon level interference Lemieux did from 89 on... there still is interfering but nothing like that...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Adjusted goals is accounting for the average scoring of the era. Which measures the technology proliferation on both sticks/skates and goalie gear. And notably captures the differences in scoring due to defensive prowess and player depth.

The only thing I don't agree with is roster sizes being taken into account, but that wouldn't affect Ovechkin vs. Lemieux. It maybe DOES favor Ovechkin vs. Howe though so that gives me a bit of pause.

Mario was amazing in '00-'01. No one argues this. Mario is more talented and a better player than Ovechkin. No one argues this.

"Also, saying best and most accomplished are different doesn't add up... it’s splitting hairs."
There are many cases in athletics (injury/luck) and the arts (addiction/insanity/death/luck) where the best are not the most accomplished. I don't have a problem splitting those hairs.

Ya I’m aware of what AG is, just don’t agree with it because there is no way to tell what a guy like Hull could do with comp stick his entire career, or if Gretzky trained like McDavid, for example.

I agree the best aren’t always the most accomplished, or Lemieux would have about ten cups minimum.

However, a thing like goal scoring in this instance, where it took AO again over 2k more shots and we have real life evidence of what a broken down and aged Lemieux could do with a first generation comp agt over sized goalies in the dead puck era.... it is abundantly clear who is the better and more accomplished goal scorer.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ya I’m aware of what AG is, just don’t agree with it because there is no way to tell what a guy like Hull could do with comp stick his entire career, or if Gretzky trained like McDavid, for example.

I agree the best aren’t always the most accomplished, or Lemieux would have about ten cups minimum.

However, a thing like goal scoring in this instance, where it took AO again over 2k more shots and we have real life evidence of what a broken down and aged Lemieux could do with a first generation comp agt over sized goalies in the dead puck era.... it is abundantly clear who was better and more accomplished goal scorer.

The biggest difference is defensive structure and the fact that middle-bottom pair defenseman and 3rd-4th lines are good hockey players now. It's not technology.*

I really really despise having to bring this up but since we keep going...if you're going to say Lemieux dominated post comeback you can't just account for '00-'01 when he skated with Jagr. You gotta look at the everything else.

*Edit: I believe from a distribution standpoint the middle-bottom is much closer to the top now in terms of hockey ability, especially defensive ability. Whereas before there was a much wider distribution.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Joey with his murse.
Jerry with his purse.
Matthews with his as well.

Wanker thug wannabes with theirs.

 

[LOGiK]

Joey with his murse.
Jerry with his purse.
Matthews with his as well.

Wanker thug wannabes with theirs.

Need to carry something? Go with the back pack. Enough space and not effeminate.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

The biggest difference is defensive structure and the fact that middle-bottom pair defenseman and 3rd-4th lines are good hockey players now. It's not technology.

I really really despise having to bring this up but since we keep going...if you're going to say Lemieux dominated post comeback you can't just account for '00-'01 when he skated with Jagr. You gotta look at the everything else.

The structure today isn’t nearly as smothering as the dead puck era with the insane amount of obstruction. It literally took one game before Lemieux had guys draped all over him again... the Toronto game guys were being respectful of the legend... against the Isles, they were abusing him and obstructing him to death.

But Lemieux was used to that because he played his entire career with guys water skiing on his back and it was allowed because hockey is tough and robble robble robble.

AO never had to skate through the kind of abuse Lemieux took and was let go. The minute AO stepped into the league, Bettman had new rules post lock out to remove the insane obstruction and water skiing from the game.

People just either didn’t watch that era of hockey or they forget how god awful it was.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Didn't Lemieux always use a wood stick? I thought he never switched because he could feel the puck better with a wood stick.

Al MacInnis was shooting over 100mph year after year with a wooden stick too.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The structure today isn’t nearly as smothering as the dead puck era with the insane amount of obstruction. It literally took one game before Lemieux had guys draped all over him again... the Toronto game guys were being respectful of the legend... against the Isles, they were abusing him and obstructing him to death.

But Lemieux was used to that because he played his entire career with guys water skiing on his back and it was allowed because hockey is tough and robble robble robble.

AO never had to skate through the kind of abuse Lemieux took and was let go. The minute AO stepped into the league, Bettman had new rules post lock out to remove the insane obstruction and water skiing from the game.

People just either didn’t watch that era of hockey or they forget how god awful it was.

'93-'94 is considered the start of hockey's dead puck era. Scoring dropped by like .3 GPG:
https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.htm

Mario scored 477 goals (69% hah of his total goals) BEFORE that season. In fact Mario scored literally half of his goals by 1990. This is all pre-DPE.

 

[HandshakeLine]

This is fascinating, but what does it have to do with the Leafs taking a shit on the ice?

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

'93-'94 is considered the start of hockey's dead puck era. Scoring dropped by like .3 GPG:
https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.htm

Mario scored 477 goals (69% hah of his total goals) BEFORE that season. In fact Mario scored literally half of his goals by 1990. This is all pre-DPE.

Take a look at any Lemieux highlight video before '90 and see how he was mauled on a consistent basis even back then. Every shift of Lemieux's was his own personal "clutch and grab" hockey.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

'93-'94 is considered the start of hockey's dead puck era. Scoring dropped by like .3 GPG:
https://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/stats.htm

Mario scored 477 goals (69% hah of his total goals) BEFORE that season. In fact Mario scored literally half of his goals by 1990. This is all pre-DPE.

You obviously didn’t watch Lemieux when he was younger. I was a little kid then, but I still recall it vividly and had tons of my Uncle’s old VHS tapes of games he recorded and watched them over and over when I was a teen.

He got mauled and had guys water skiing on his back from the day he came into the league. I have little doubt he was the most abused player in NHL history and he still needed 2k less shots than AO to get 690 goals.

There is literally no way around that mind numbing fact.... no silly made up adjustments, or complaining about goalie pads, or defense today, etc etc.

And that doesn’t even take into account the insane sticks today and AO stepping into an obstruction free NHL from day one.

 

[LOGiK]

The structure today isn’t nearly as smothering as the dead puck era with the insane amount of obstruction. It literally took one game before Lemieux had guys draped all over him again... the Toronto game guys were being respectful of the legend... against the Isles, they were abusing him and obstructing him to death.

But Lemieux was used to that because he played his entire career with guys water skiing on his back and it was allowed because hockey is tough and robble robble robble.

AO never had to skate through the kind of abuse Lemieux took and was let go. The minute AO stepped into the league, Bettman had new rules post lock out to remove the insane obstruction and water skiing from the game.

People just either didn’t watch that era of hockey or they forget how god awful it was.

I wonder if AO played during a young Scott Stevens or Darrien Hatcher or someone like that if Scott Stevens would end AO's career like he did to so many other players.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Take a look at any Lemieux highlight video before '90 and see how he was mauled on a consistent basis even back then. Every shift of Lemieux's was his own personal "clutch and grab" hockey.

I've seen them.

And that sucked for him, but surely the inordinate attention created opportunities for his teammates no? Plus, in theory ya know, the other team was penalized sometimes? Mario scored 147 PP goals by then.

Here's the PP opportunities by year - Penguins team rank. Just through the 80s, I don't feel the need to go further.
'84-'85: 2nd
'85-'86: 1st
'86-'87: 3rd
1st
1st
4th

There really isn't much use in continuing this.
Lemieux way better player. Sid better player. Geno better player.
Ovechkin breaking Gretzky goal-scoring mark = great accomplishment. And Howe AG mark too. I didn't realize the extent to which we hated Ovi until this debate occurred.