Post-Game Talk: Leafs 2 - Pens 5 - Geno Drank too many Coronas

[Al Smith]

At game speed it's, what, half a second late? There are a dozen hits that late every game. Tanner Glass could only throw hits later than that. It's just that he is extremely awful at even bodychecking so nobody cared.

To me it looks like it’s long gone (at hockey speed) and I’d disagree that you see a dozen like that every game, especially in open ice. In the old days, it would have been justified by “Kariya was admiring his pass”. And you still here that some today, but not so much.

 

[madinsomniac]

"Silly made up adjustments" like the fact that from '84 to '90 goal scoring average was 3.73 per game and in the equivalent time span from '05 to '12 was 2.86 per game.

All because I want to say "congrats Ovi great accomplishment" when it happens.

Oy. Freaking. Vey.

Are you going to similarly denigrate Sid & Geno on their career stats?

Look, tge stats you are pointing to don’t account for talent specifics... this argument is trancendent in sports statistics when trying to compare eras... it doesn’t account for individual strengths and weaknesses... its just a gross number...

Watch the games... guys were mauling Lemieux much earlier than the official clutch and grab era impact shows up in those gross goals stats... so he could only put up 160 points while being assulted with interference that would make this days players blush...

Ovie plays in an era where his strongest point, that hard shot that beats the goalies reaction time, is absolutely bolstered by the current composite sticks

he also has an easier time beating defensive schemes because there isn’t a two line offsides... give Lemieux or Gretzky those same advantages in this day and age, and they trounce AO...

 

[Gurglesons]

We all know Ovi’s breaking 700 on Sunday right?

 

[ChaosAgent]

he also has an easier time beating defensive schemes because there isn’t a two line offsides... give Lemieux or Gretzky those same advantages in this day and age, and they trounce AO...

Yes. They are better players than AO. And Mario is definitely a better goal-scorer. He'd still have issues staying healthy though.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Maybe you should get on the horn and tell Sullivan to have the team shoot less so they can be better at scoring goals.

Worked for them last night.

Better get going on that revolutionary AG model... might take awhile since you will have a few things to work out, like logic....

 

[ChaosAgent]

Worked for them last night.

Better get going on that revolutionary AG model... might take awhile since you will have a few things to work out, like logic....

Meh. I just ripped it off from right here:
NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

I never claimed to be revolutionary.

Understand that words can have different meanings sometimes to different people. It's okay. It's gonna be okay Jiggles, I swear.

Now for some ellipses...

ellipses...

... ... ...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Meh. I just ripped it off from right here:
NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

I never claimed to be revolutionary.

Understand that words can have different meanings sometimes to different people. It's okay. It's gonna be okay Jiggles, I swear.

Now for some ellipses...

ellipses...

... ... ...

That doesn’t show any relation to AO having to take 2k extra shots.

Try again.

Have fun!

 

[ChaosAgent]

That doesn’t show any relation to AO having to take 2k extra shots.

Try again.

Have fun!

So shot-adjusted goal-totals?

Who's making up stats now...
...
e...
l...
l...
i...
...

 

[madinsomniac]

Yes. They are better players than AO. And Mario is definitely a better goal-scorer. He'd still have issues staying healthy though.

I mean thats 100% eddie Johnson’s fault for making that deal with the devil

 

[JTG]

Angello and Lafferty can both really skate, have size, and they bang bodies around.

People have already seen Lafferty flash his skill in limited time, but Angello has some nice mitts and good IQ that everyone will hopefully get to see before the seasons end.

Just wish Angello got his shot earlier in the season like I was pleading for, because he would be entrenched by now IMHO... instead of being press box fodder for the likes of ZAR.

Angello can actually move for a big guy. I really like him. I generally don't know a ton about guys before they get to the big leagues. I had no idea Angello could move the way he does nor did I know how much jam he had to his game. He has no problem getting to the front of the net and causing trouble. He's perfect for that 4th line role. The play where he scored the goal was set up by back pressure he created.

I'm a Lafferty fan. I think this season he's not going to gain much traction here, but I think he's a legit NHLer. I would imagine Sully is going to play Blueger on the 3rd line next year, and I think Lafferty would make a good 4th line center. I think he does pretty much everything well, he just needed to get his feet wet. This summer will be big for both of these guys.

Interesting thing is that Jarry almost got that one.

He's at 43% in the defensive zone. 45% overall.

He absolutely did. When a puck is coming in that quick, a goalie has to see it off the stick or he's toast if it's on net and placed correctly. That split second made all the difference. It was about as perfect a one timer you can get.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'm a Lafferty fan. I think this season he's not going to gain much traction here, but I think he's a legit NHLer. I would imagine Sully is going to play Blueger on the 3rd line next year, and I think Lafferty would make a good 4th line center. I think he does pretty much everything well, he just needed to get his feet wet. This summer will be big for both of these guys.

Lafferty would be a fine 4C. Seems like the game was moving pretty fast for him at times this year but that's to be expected. His speed, skill and shot are certainly all at the right level to make the team.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So shot-adjusted goal-totals?

Who's making up stats now...
...
e...
l...
l...
i...
...

Uh, if Lemieux took 2k more shots in his career, how do you think those “adjusted numbers” would look?

There is no AG model that will close the gap between Lemieux’s goal scoring prowess and AOs, when one guy needed 2k extra shots.

Keep dancing though...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Angello can actually move for a big guy. I really like him. I generally don't know a ton about guys before they get to the big leagues. I had no idea Angello could move the way he does nor did I know how much jam he had to his game. He has no problem getting to the front of the net and causing trouble. He's perfect for that 4th line role. The play where he scored the goal was set up by back pressure he created.

I'm a Lafferty fan. I think this season he's not going to gain much traction here, but I think he's a legit NHLer. I would imagine Sully is going to play Blueger on the 3rd line next year, and I think Lafferty would make a good 4th line center. I think he does pretty much everything well, he just needed to get his feet wet. This summer will be big for both of these guys.



He absolutely did. When a puck is coming in that quick, a goalie has to see it off the stick or he's toast if it's on net and placed correctly. That split second made all the difference. It was about as perfect a one timer you can get.

I’ve been pretty high on Angello for a few years now because he has such a nice blend of grit, size, skating and skill.

He won’t dangle guys out of their skates, but he has a really nice IQ that you will hopefully get to see more of as he gets comfortable.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Uh, if Lemieux took 2k more shots in his career, how do you think those “adjusted numbers” would look?

There is no AG model that will close the gap between Lemieux’s goal scoring prowess and AOs, when one guy needed 2k extra shots.

Keep dancing though...

I tried to resolve my differences with you in an adult way by just saying that I think our disagreement is just whether "best/most prowess" means "greatest." For you it means the same and that's ok. For me there's a slight distinction and that's also ok. At least it's ok to me.

And that is the actual truth of the situation. You can rip on me for saying that best isn't always greatest, but please stop twisting the argument to say that AO is better than Mario. I'm not and this is the definition of arguing against a strawman.

I got caught up in it because I like to argue, but now I can see that you are determined to just keep posting to get the last word. Such is life on a message board and I've been ravenous a few times on here too.

I hereby grant you the winner in the "debate" that Mario has better goal-scoring prowess than Ovechkin. Talk to ya later.

 

[JTG]

I’ve been pretty high on Angello for a few years now because he has such a nice blend of grit, size, skating and skill.

He won’t dangle guys out of their skates, but he has a really nice IQ that you will hopefully get to see more of as he gets comfortable.

With how he plays he seems like a guy who could play a Hornqvist game. I really don't know what kind of long range skill the guy has quite yet, but from the last few games, he seems to have decent enough hands and he has spent some time in front of the net. I just love his willingness to get to the scoring areas and he will take a few hits to make a play.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I tried to resolve my differences with you in an adult way by just saying that I think our disagreement is just whether "best/most prowess" means "greatest." For you it means the same and that's ok. For me there's a slight distinction and that's also ok. At least it's ok to me.

And that is the actual truth of the situation. You can rip on me for saying that best isn't always greatest, but please stop twisting the argument to say that AO is better than Mario. I'm not and this is the definition of arguing against a strawman.

I got caught up in it because I like to argue, but now I can see that you are determined to just keep posting to get the last word. Such is life on a message board and I've been ravenous a few times on here too.

I hereby grant you the winner in the "debate" that Mario has better goal-scoring prowess than Ovechkin. Talk to ya later.

I already made it quite clear what this debate is about, you continued to dance around the extra 2k shots, took some pot shots at me for no reason, then seemed to get annoyed when I gave it right back to you.

If you wanted to have a good debate I can always do that.

If you want to have a debate and try to throw zingers at me, I’m always up for that to, it doesn’t really bother me so...

With how he plays he seems like a guy who could play a Hornqvist game. I really don't know what kind of long range skill the guy has quite yet, but from the last few games, he seems to have decent enough hands and he has spent some time in front of the net. I just love his willingness to get to the scoring areas and he will take a few hits to make a play.

He has short area skill if you know what I mean.. like he can dangle through a guy off the half boards or make a pretty dish down low...

He’s just not going to make end to end rushes or make your jaw drop with some sick moves or whatever.

He has good bottom sixer skill.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Maybe you should get on the horn and tell Sullivan to have the team shoot less so they can be better at scoring goals.

Yeah, the objective is to score goals not to maximize shooting %.

And to all you derailers this is the Pens/Leafs PGT and greatest goal scorer of all time thread. Not the Scott Stevens was a head-shotting douchebag thread. TYVM!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Need to carry something? Go with the back pack. Enough space and not effeminate.

I feel like when you get to a certain age, it feels weird to double strap a backpack or single shoulder it, just weird. I have a messenger bag that can turn into a backpack, but even that I hate using. I just don't carry a lot of shit, but it's weird to see a hockey player carrying a murse. One of those "I'm a thug-wannabe" things that are usually some fake Gucci or whatever.

I expect that from a Basketball or NFL player, where most wankers are in abundance like the Gronk's, Bron-Bron, and AB's of the world are.

Like what can he possibly be carrying extra in that? His perv stache pomade?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yeah, the objective is to score goals not to maximize shooting %.

And to all you derailers this is the Pens/Leafs PGT and greatest goal scorer of all time thread. Not the Scott Stevens was a head-shotting douchebag thread. TYVM!

Eric Lindros. Now there's a little case study in Best v. Greatest in sports.

 

[XanderCrews34]

Just looking through stats...and yes Gretzky was older than Mario, but from the '88-'89 season on, Mario was the clearly superior player on a per game basis.

Had Lemieux's 80's teams had the early 90's level talent of the Pens for his physical peak, even with the same injury history, I really think he'd be roundly acknowledged as the greatest player ever.

66's point shares/games played is comfortably better than Gretz which was surprising to me given those outrageous scoring seasons in EDM.

 

[XanderCrews34]

I’ve been pretty high on Angello for a few years now because he has such a nice blend of grit, size, skating and skill.

He won’t dangle guys out of their skates, but he has a really nice IQ that you will hopefully get to see more of as he gets comfortable.

What's your comp for him? He seems like a high floor kind of player since he can skate AND he has a little toughness to him. Can he be a poor man's Kunitz? I know Angello scored in the A but do you think he can be a scoring type in the show or more of a make-a-living-blocking-shots-and-chipping-in type?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

What's your comp for him? He seems like a high floor kind of player since he can skate AND he has a little toughness to him. Can he be a poor man's Kunitz? I know Angello scored in the A but do you think he can be a scoring type in the show or more of a make-a-living-blocking-shots-and-chipping-in type?

Straight bottom six guy that could get you excited he’s more than that, but leave you disappointed if you don’t keep your expectations in check.

He’s going to bang guys around, fight (avg), flash enticing skill at times, probably score most of his goals down low, and play a responsible game.

 

[XanderCrews34]

Straight bottom six guy that could get you excited he’s more than that, but leave you disappointed if you don’t keep your expectations in check.

He’s going to bang guys around, fight (avg), flash enticing skill at times, probably score most of his goals down low, and play a responsible game.

Can't wait to see him as the LW1 for Sid!!!!!!

 

[Tom Hanks]

 

[ChaosAgent]

I really thought Matthews was good.

Our powerplay, Crosby and Jarry won us that game.

So good to see the powerplay look terrifying. Sometimes I hate the Penguins PP zone entry. They seem to be able to set up at much lower rates than other teams. However, they are capable of scoring quick strike goals off the rush with it. See: yesterday. So I'm conflicted.

I wonder:

1. If that's a mirage.
2. If not a mirage, if it's a deliberate tactical thing - not as well versed in the Xs and Os as many other here.
3. If it's a deliberate thing, I wonder if it's happening during recycled entries (ie from the Red Line) vs. full entries from our own zone.

My gut is that it's not a mirage and it's happening mostly during recycled entries - catching PKs on incomplete changes. No way to really back that up but I'll watch it more closely moving forward.