Post-Game Talk: Leafs 2 - Pens 5 - Geno Drank too many Coronas

[vikingGoalie]

The whole team was pretty dang good in this one. TJ and Sid where next level good. I wonder for the re-match in Toronto who Sullivan starts? I can make an argument both ways, in some ways if you start Murray it might not be fair to him from the standpoint that at home after this embarassment, with their season even more on the line, Toronto is going to be a lot better. Like I said, can say Murray played really well his last start and we should give him a start, or you can go with Jarry as he looks like he's getting red hot again. Good problem to have.

 

[vikingGoalie]

I think Tavares is way over paid in Toronto.

They'll be chasing him out of that city in no time.

wonder if he frequents the same hot dog vendor?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I don’t understand why Rocket is ranked ahead of Beliveau, Sid and Ovy for 5th best of all time by so many in the History forum.

Ovy is the best goal scorer of all time because his rate of goal scoring divided by the average goals scored during his playing career is higher than anyone else’s.

Nah mate.

 

[SouthGeorge]

I don’t understand why Rocket is ranked ahead of Beliveau, Sid and Ovy for 5th best of all time by so many in the History forum.

Ovy is the best goal scorer of all time because his rate of goal scoring divided by the average goals scored during his playing career is higher than anyone else’s.

31% of his goals came from PP. He needed a man advantage. What's so great about that? He scored a majority of his goals in the same two ways. What's so great about that?

He has the greatest shot of all time. I'll give you that but that's it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Nobody's going to start an Ovechkin Riot. Maybe an Ovechkin Outrage.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

31% of his goals came from PP. He needed a man advantage. What's so great about that? He scored a majority of his goals in the same two ways. What's so great about that?

He has the greatest shot of all time. I'll give you that but that's it.

This seems like a pretty good argument. I’ll take it as homework to figure out those percentages for Mario, Gretzky, Bure and Bossy.

The other argument I have seen is that the second place finisher to Ovy in all ( maybe most?) years was much closer than when Mario, etc...were playing.

 

[madinsomniac]

Meh I still think Ovie is overrated on the all time goalscorers list... he is great, but had Lemieux or Gretzky played with modern sticks I dont care if goalies were twice the size of the 80’s guys... they would have lit things up like no one could today... and thats true with Hull and Bossy too...

I can break out whats left of my old fiberglass and aluminum sticks and compare them to the composites of today... Ovie would lose several mph off his shot and they weighed more ... they just weren’t even close to as manageable as what we have today

 

[Pancakes]

Meh I still think Ovie is overrated on the all time goalscorers list... he is great, but had Lemieux or Gretzky played with modern sticks I dont care if goalies were twice the size of the 80’s guys... they would have lit things up like no one could today... and thats true with Hull and Bossy too...

I can break out whats left of my old fiberglass and aluminum sticks and compare them to the composites of today... Ovie would lose several mph off his shot and they weighed more ... they just weren’t even close to as manageable as what we have today

Ovechkin is amazing and is probably the best pure goalscorer in the league's history.

But I also think that's at least in part because Wayne and Mario had more dimensions to their game. If they focused purely on being lethal goalscoers, how many more goals could they have scored? What made them both absurd is they were also the best ever at passing the puck.

If Mario decided to be a one dimensional sniper who knows how many goals he could score.

 

[Pancakes]

As far as this game goes, I just go back to a play in the second period. We're up 5-0, and on the PK. A puck squirts towards the Leafs' side of the neutral zone. Brandon Tanev is hustling like a madman trying to get a short handed goal and outmuscles the Leafs defender and nearly gets a chance out of the play. In a 5-0 game where most teams would be coasting to the finish line.

That's the type of team we are this year. That's the type of work ethic we have seen.

 

[HandshakeLine]

If Mario had been a roided up one dimensional sniper, he'd probably have played a lot longer.

 

[LOGiK]

If Mario had been a roided up one dimensional sniper, he'd probably have played a lot longer.

Hockey is one of the few sports where steroids alone wouldn't necessarily make you 'better' at the game - or give you an advantage - however you want to look at it.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Hockey is one of the few sports where steroids alone wouldn't necessarily make you 'better' at the game - or give you an advantage - however you want to look at it.

Eh, Ovechkin's size has definitely helped him escape some injury in his career.

But mostly, I just don't like Ovechkin.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Meh I still think Ovie is overrated on the all time goalscorers list... he is great, but had Lemieux or Gretzky played with modern sticks I dont care if goalies were twice the size of the 80’s guys... they would have lit things up like no one could today... and thats true with Hull and Bossy too...

I can break out whats left of my old fiberglass and aluminum sticks and compare them to the composites of today... Ovie would lose several mph off his shot and they weighed more ... they just weren’t even close to as manageable as what we have today

Ovie is the greatest goalscorer ever. But there is more to hockey than scoring goals and he ranges from pretty good (playmaking and board work) to bad (defensive contribution) there.

That's why he's an inferior overall player to Sid, Geno and McDavid. And some others like Datsyuk over the years.

Having said that, breaking Gretzky's record would be a staggering achievement and it may vault Ovie's legacy - not here in Pittsburgh mind you but across the game - above Sid. Even if Sid is near-universally regarded as the better player.

 

[Andy99]

Hockey is one of the few sports where steroids alone wouldn't necessarily make you 'better' at the game - or give you an advantage - however you want to look at it.

there is a definite advantage in terms of healing quicker...maybe not in terms of skill or playing better...

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

People calling AO the best pure goal scorer of all time are extremely wrong.

AO isn’t in Lemieux or Gretzky’s league as a goal scorer.

Take Lemieux for example...

He knew exactly when to pass or shoot... he didn’t need to be a volume shooter like AO to score goals.

Who is a more talented goal scorer?

- A guy who takes 3633 shots to score 690 goals for an insane 19 s%

- A guy who takes 5510 shot to score 698 for a 12 s%

It’s not really even close which guy was the better goal scorer.

 

[LOGiK]

People calling AO the best pure goal scorer of all time are extremely wrong.

AO isn’t in Lemieux or Gretzky’s league as a goal scorer.

Take Lemieux for example...

He knew exactly when to pass or shoot... he didn’t need to be a volume shooter like AO to score goals.

Who is a more talented goal scorer?

- A guy who takes 3633 shots to score 690 goals for an insane 19 s%

- A guy who takes 5510 shot to score 698 for a 12 s%

It’s not really even close which guy was the better goal scorer.

In the off-day thread I posted a few players with their total points and % of those points from the power play... fyi

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

In the off-day thread I posted a few players with their total points and % of those points from the power play... fyi

Ya I caught that...

I know Lemieux used to feast off the halfboards with his one timer, so it doesn’t matter to me if AO got a shit load of goals on the PP.

It’s the fact dude has scored 8 more goals than Lemieux on almost 2k more shots and people are claiming silly things like “best sniper ever” and “best pure goal scorer of all time”.

Uh.. nope. Its honestly not even close who was the better pure goal scorer and sniper here.

 

[ncm7772]

Looked like a lower body issue or illness, HF Medical Staff is unclear on what it is.

75% of us here are doctors. We should've figured it out by now.

 

[LOGiK]

Ya I caught that...

I know Lemieux used to feast off the halfboards with his one timer, so it doesn’t matter to me if AO got a shit load of goals on the PP.

It’s the fact dude has scored 8 more goals than Lemieux on almost 2k more shots and people are claiming silly things like “best sniper ever” and “best pure goal scorer of all time”.

Uh.. nope. Its honestly not even close who was the better pure goal scorer and sniper here.

Yeah it's way too subjective to label players 'best' or 'greatest' *goal scorer, etc etc* there are so many variables to argue the exact opposite in most cases.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah it's way too subjective to label players 'best' or 'greatest' *goal scorer, etc etc* there are so many variables to argue the exact opposite in most cases.

I don’t think there are too many variables to ponder here TBTH.

AO is a great goal scorer, but if you take 2k more shots to get almost the same total as the other guy... guess who was more accurate and the better goal scorer?

To put it into context...

Most 30-40 goal scorers today take around 200-250 shots a season...

AO had to essentially take 7-10 seasons worth of extra shots than Lemieux to have almost the same totals.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ya I caught that...

I know Lemieux used to feast off the halfboards with his one timer, so it doesn’t matter to me if AO got a shit load of goals on the PP.

It’s the fact dude has scored 8 more goals than Lemieux on almost 2k more shots and people are claiming silly things like “best sniper ever” and “best pure goal scorer of all time”.

Uh.. nope. Its honestly not even close who was the better pure goal scorer and sniper here.

Part of being a goalscoring involves a shot-first mentality. Something Ovechkin has certainly never lacked. And a lot of those low-percentage shots are due to the fact that Washington deliberately has constructed their entire powerplay around Ovechkin's shot. For over a decade.

Also you're leaving out goalie equipment size changes. League shooting percentage has gone way down since the 80s. It was 12% in '87-88 and 9% now. Big difference.

I think Mario is the more talented/better player than Ovechkin in basically every way but part of being greatest is actually doing the thing. Ovechkin is probably going to pass Gretzky on raw goal totals and Howe on era-adjusted goal totals. I can't debate that.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

I think the “shooting volume” strategy is fine and doesn’t make a player a better or worse goal scorer than some one who scores at a higher %.

Era-adjusted Goals/Game is not subjective.

 

[XanderCrews34]

I don’t think there are too many variables to ponder here TBTH.

AO is a great goal scorer, but if you take 2k more shots to get almost the same total as the other guy... guess who was more accurate and the better goal scorer?

To put it into context...

Most 30-40 goal scorers today take around 200-250 shots a season...

AO had to essentially take 7-10 seasons worth of extra shots than Lemieux to have almost the same totals.

Yeah it's like one guys takes 40 shots and scores 35 points in a basketball game and another takes 20 shots and scores 30 points.

The first guy did not play better - he put up incredible volume.

 

[XanderCrews34]

I think the “shooting volume” strategy is fine and doesn’t make a player a better or worse goal scorer than some one who scores at a higher %.

Era-adjusted Goals/Game is not subjective.

Well that's still part of the discussion. OV takes a ton more shots per game - he's going to have a lot of goals even if he's not as good at scoring goals as someone who shoots less.

It's incredible what he's done in his career, but he's not the best goal scorer of all time. He may accumulate the most and maybe the distinction doesn't matter to other people but it does to me anyway.

 

[The Shovel Penguin]

I think the interesting thing is that the division isn't something they typically fight hard for. I think it's nice and they want it, but know at the end of the day it's kind of irrelevant.

Yeah, in the bigger picture it isn't a big deal. Even now it's not a lock. I think mostly I just got tired of more playoff games in the Caps damn building with all that "rock the red" and cheesy siren goal horns. Though seeing our fans meeting on the steps was a nice tradeoff.