Post-Game Talk: Leafs 2 - Pens 5 - Geno Drank too many Coronas

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

I wonder if AO played during a young Scott Stevens or Darrien Hatcher or someone like that if Scott Stevens would end AO's career like he did to so many other players.

Meh, Ovechkin is big in his own right and pretty aware and absorbs hits very well, hard to catch him with his head down. I'd be more concerned with him trying to hit a guy like Messier and getting an elbow or stick to his teeth.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I wonder if AO played during a young Scott Stevens or Darrien Hatcher or someone like that if Scott Stevens would end AO's career like he did to so many other players.

AO was a Mac truck though, but I guess so was Lindros.

Stevens did end Lindros’ career so who knows...

Everything was mostly legal then except like switchblades...

I've seen them.

And that sucked for him, but surely the inordinate attention created opportunities for his teammates no? Plus, in theory ya know, the other team was penalized sometimes? Mario scored 147 PP goals by then.

Here's the PP opportunities by year - Penguins team rank. Just through the 80s, I don't feel the need to go further.
'84-'85: 2nd
'85-'86: 1st
'86-'87: 3rd
1st
1st
4th

There really isn't much use in continuing this.
Lemieux way better player. Sid better player. Geno better player.
Ovechkin breaking Gretzky goal-scoring mark = great accomplishment. And Howe AG mark too. I didn't realize the extent to which we hated Ovi until this debate occurred.

It’s not hate, it’s pure logic using numbers.

If you need 2,000 extra chances to do something, you aren’t better than the other guy by a long shot.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

I've seen them.

And that sucked for him, but surely the inordinate attention created opportunities for his teammates no? Plus, in theory ya know, the other team was penalized sometimes? Mario scored 147 PP goals by then.

Here's the PP opportunities by year - Penguins team rank. Just through the 80s, I don't feel the need to go further.
'84-'85: 2nd
'85-'86: 1st
'86-'87: 3rd
1st
1st
4th

There really isn't much use in continuing this.
Lemieux way better player. Sid better player. Geno better player.
Ovechkin breaking Gretzky goal-scoring mark = great accomplishment. And Howe AG mark too. I didn't realize the extent to which we hated Ovi until this debate occurred.

I do hate Ovechkin (because he's damn good and on a rival) but I've also given him praise and I'm very very impressed with his career so far, what he's done and continuing to do is nothing short of amazing. If he breaks Gretzky's record how can you not be amazed?

Lemieux was a better goal scorer though.

 

[LOGiK]

AO was a Mac truck though, but I guess so was Lindros.

Stevens did end Lindros’ career so who knows...

Everything was mostly legal then except like switchblades...



It’s not hate, it’s pure logic using numbers.

If you need 2,000 extra chances to do something, you aren’t better than the other guy by a long shot.

Stevens kinda finished off Paul Kariya too.
Though he was a little guy, but still.

 

[ChaosAgent]

You obviously didn’t watch Lemieux when he was younger. I was a little kid then, but I still recall it vividly and had tons of my Uncle’s old VHS tapes of games he recorded and watched them over and over when I was a teen.

He got mauled and had guys water skiing on his back from the day he came into the league. I have little doubt he was the most abused player in NHL history and he still needed 2k less shots than AO to get 690 goals.

There is literally no way around that mind numbing fact.... no silly made up adjustments, or complaining about goalie pads, or defense today, etc etc.

And that doesn’t even take into account the insane sticks today and AO stepping into an obstruction free NHL from day one.

"Silly made up adjustments" like the fact that from '84 to '90 goal scoring average was 3.73 per game and in the equivalent time span from '05 to '12 was 2.86 per game.

All because I want to say "congrats Ovi great accomplishment" when it happens.

Oy. Freaking. Vey.

Are you going to similarly denigrate Sid & Geno on their career stats?

 

[Al Smith]

Take a look at any Lemieux highlight video before '90 and see how he was mauled on a consistent basis even back then. Every shift of Lemieux's was his own personal "clutch and grab" hockey.

For his first 2-3 years it was basically one against five, so yeah there was a lot of clutch and grab as 66 regularly went and to end. After he got some support it wasn’t quite as bad but it never went away.

 

[HandshakeLine]

f*** you Ovi, nice accomplishment. Asshole.

 

[LOGiK]

Dear lord.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

"Silly made up adjustments" like the fact that from '84 to '90 goal scoring average was 3.73 per game and in the equivalent time span from '05 to '12 was 2.86 per game.

All because I want to say "congrats Ovi great accomplishment" when it happens.

Oy. Freaking. Vey.

Are you going to similarly denigrate Sid & Geno on their career stats?

The GA doesn’t apply for the third time because an elderly, broken down Lemieux came in and showed he could score an insane amount of goals in the dead puck era.

What about that part are you missing?

And you said “Ovie is the greatest goalscorer ever” which I’ve pretty easily debunked, not “Congrats Ovie”.

Let’s not move the goal post.

 

[Al Smith]

Dear lord.

At least the nhl did get rid of some of those types of hits. I guess I’ve gotten soft in my old age but, while they would’ve been exciting at the time, seeing some of them now are kind of nauseating.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

I also don't think Ovechkin would be doomed to have his career cut short had he played in the 90's. Plenty of guys who played hard in the 90's managed long careers. Like the aforementioned Stevens and Messier. Just like how plenty of haters were saying Sid wouldn't be able to hack it if he played in the 90's because of all those big bad scary players, despite Sakic and Yzerman doing just fine while being literally the same size.

 

[ChaosAgent]

The GA doesn’t apply for the third time because an elderly, broken down Lemieux came in and showed he could score an insane amount of goals in the dead puck era.

What about that part are you missing?

Elderly, broken down Lemieux scored 77 goals in 170 games.

That's .45 GPG. Awesome.

For reference, Ovi is at .6 GPG. Crosby is at .47 GPG.

You can't just take '00-'01 if you're going to make that argument. Especially skating alongside the best/second best offensive player of that time too.

As for "the part missing," I'd say 2001-2005.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

I still maintain there's nothing "wrong" with most of Stevens' hits, they were on puck carriers and often shoulder to chest, always during actual game play. He was just so devastatingly good at it that the results were ugly.

Meanwhile, enforcers are literally killing themselves/dying because of brain trauma, yet fighting still exists because something that happens during stoppages in play is "part of the game."

 

[LOGiK]

At least the nhl did get rid of some of those types of hits. I guess I’ve gotten soft in my old age but, while they would’ve been exciting at the time, seeing some of them now are kind of nauseating.

Yep. This was when I started watching hockey.
Today, very cringe worthy.
This was the old NHL though - before the speed and skill it was slow and kill.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Elderly, broken down Lemieux scored 77 goals in 170 games.

That's .45 GPG. Awesome.

For reference, Ovi is at .6 GPG. Crosby is at .47 GPG.

You can't just take '00-'01 if you're going to make that argument. Especially skating alongside the best/second best offensive player of that time too.

As for "the part missing," I'd say 2001-2005.

He also played alongside such offensive wizards as Steve McKenna (scored the goal on Mario's 1000th career assist, btw), Guillaume Lefebvre and Eric Meloche.

 

[Al Smith]

I still maintain there's nothing "wrong" with most of Stevens' hits, they were on puck carriers and often shoulder to chest, always during actual game play. He was just so devastatingly good at it that the results were ugly.

Meanwhile, enforcers are literally killing themselves/dying because of brain trauma, yet fighting still exists because something that happens during stoppages in play is "part of the game."

Some are clean. The Kariya hit is way late. And - I’m sure it’s been dissected like the Zapruder tape - but the Lindros hit looks like an elbow to the head. At least one is a blindside hit now prohibited.

Yeah, I don’t understand why they still have fighting and some legal blows to the head, but like I said, I must be getting soft. Or I’ve now had kids grow up and play sports at a high level and seen one of them and many peers suffer concussions and it’s pretty damn scary to see them struggle through them.

 

[ChaosAgent]

He also played alongside such offensive wizards as Steve McKenna (scored the goal on Mario's 1000th career assist, btw), Guillaume Lefebvre and Eric Meloche.

And Alex Kovalev. And Marty Straka. And Sidney Crosby for a bit at the end there.

Look, here's my last word: @Mr Jiggyfly said earlier that he doesn't separate out "best", "greatest", and "most accomplished." And I totally get that. But I do separate them out. And I've gotten dragged into nitpicking our best player because he thinks I'm saying "Mario isn't best."

Mario is best.

 

[Tom Hanks]

PGT?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Elderly, broken down Lemieux scored 77 goals in 170 games.

That's .45 GPG. Awesome.

For reference, Ovi is at .6 GPG. Crosby is at .47 GPG.

You can't just take '00-'01 if you're going to make that argument. Especially skating alongside the best/second best offensive player of that time too.

As for "the part missing," I'd say 2001-2005.

Once he blew his hip out early the next season uh, ya his totals went down. But let’s ignore that part right?

35 years old, took three years off, bad back, 35 in 43 in the dead puck era. Let’s see AO do that.

If you plucked a five year old Lemieux from the past and had him trained to be ready for the 04 draft like AO, with today’s sticks and obstruction free league, he would absolutely terrorize it.

They couldn’t even stop him when they were allowed to tackle, grab and hook him every shift.

Now you have an all time freak trained just like Crosby and playing when he’s not allowed to be legally mauled every shift... please.

He would smoke AOs goal totals, and AO would need 4K extra shots to even get close to him.

 

[ChaosAgent]

PGT?

ZAR didn't play so we had to resort to this as a backup.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And Alex Kovalev. And Marty Straka. And Sidney Crosby for a bit at the end there.

Look, here's my last word: @Mr Jiggyfly said earlier that he doesn't separate out "best", "greatest", and "most accomplished." And I totally get that. But I do separate them out. And I've gotten dragged into nitpicking our best player because he thinks I'm saying "Mario isn't best."

Mario is best.

I never once claimed you thought Mario wasn’t the best.

My entire debate is based around your own words that AO is the best goal scorer ever and I’ve focused on obliterating that statement... because it’s not even close who was the better goal scorer and I showed you the hard numbers why.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Ovie is the greatest goalscorer ever. But there is more to hockey than scoring goals and he ranges from pretty good (playmaking and board work) to bad (defensive contribution) there.

That's why he's an inferior overall player to Sid, Geno and McDavid. And some others like Datsyuk over the years.

Having said that, breaking Gretzky's record would be a staggering achievement and it may vault Ovie's legacy - not here in Pittsburgh mind you but across the game - above Sid. Even if Sid is near-universally regarded as the better player.

I never once claimed you thought Mario wasn’t the best.

My entire debate is based around your own words that AO is the best goal scorer ever and I’ve focused on obliterating that statement... because it’s not even close who was the better goal scorer and I showed you the hard numbers why.

Thank you for proving my point that you don't distinguish between best and greatest and I do. You read greatest as best in the first post. And proceeded to dismantle best. Enjoy those VHS tapes.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

Some are clean. The Kariya hit is way late. And - I’m sure it’s been dissected like the Zapruder tape - but the Lindros hit looks like an elbow to the head. At least one is a blindside hit now prohibited.

Yeah, I don’t understand why they still have fighting and some legal blows to the head, but like I said, I must be getting soft. Or I’ve now had kids grow up and play sports at a high level and seen one of them and many peers suffer concussions and it’s pretty damn scary to see them struggle through them.

At game speed it's, what, half a second late? There are a dozen hits that late every game. Tanner Glass could only throw hits later than that. It's just that he is extremely awful at even bodychecking so nobody cared.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Thank you for proving my point that you don't distinguish between best and greatest and I do. You read greatest as best in the first post. And proceeded to dismantle best. Enjoy those VHS tapes.

Those words mean the same thing, no clue what you are going on about.

Let me know when you come up with your revolutionary AG model that shows how it’s actually better to take 2k extra shots and have the same goal totals.

I eagerly await your scientific results.

Good luck with that.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Those words mean the same thing, no clue what you are going on about.

Let me know when you come up with your AG model that shows how it better to take 2k extra shots...

I eagerly await your scientific results.

Good luck with that.

Maybe you should get on the horn and tell Sullivan to have the team shoot less so they can be better at scoring goals.