U20: Lake Placid Tournament, August 1st - 8th

[Erikfromfin]

How was Werenski this game?

Didnt stand out like in the first game.. was ok, good wrister in overtime winner

 

[SanDogBrewin]

So does everyone agree that Matthews is 3rd overall at best? Laine and Puljujärvi are just bigger, better and more promising.

No and I couldn't see why you would base it on this tournament.

 

[Sundinisagod]

anybody know the Russian roster tonight?

 

[Plub]

So does everyone agree that Matthews is 3rd overall at best? Laine and Puljujärvi are just bigger, better and more promising.

Keep saying it as if it will suddenly come true.

I will ignore 17 years and will make a decision off of a game. Logical, right?

 

[Jussi]

Keep saying it as if it will suddenly come true.

I will ignore 17 years and will make a decision off of a game. Logical, right?

Will you also ignore the 17 years of Puljujärvi and Laine?

 

[Tormentor]

Keep saying it as if it will suddenly come true.

I will ignore 17 years and will make a decision off of a game. Logical, right?

Everyone who keeps ranking Matthews @ 1st overall after the ongoing Lake Placid U20 camp are just sheep following the consensus. Laine and Puljujärvi are better players and better prospects than him, it's obvious.

 

[thomast]

2016 looking strong at this tournament. Tkachuk and Laine are first in points. Puljujärvi is tied for 2nd. Not bad for draft eligible players.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Everyone who keeps ranking Matthews @ 1st overall after the ongoing Lake Placid U20 camp are just sheep following the consensus. Laine and Puljujärvi are better players and better prospects than him, it's obvious.

I buy that Puljujarvi has the potential to challenge Matthews, but at this point Matthews is pretty clearly the superior prospect. Not by a lot, but enough to make him the clear #1 at this point. As for Laine, if you think a good U20 camp is enough to make him better than Matthews, you've got another issue altogether.

 

[Circulartheory]

Our defense plays well considering that we have guys like Leskinen and Mattila there, Kähkönen just isn't making any big game changing saves. Hopefully Vehviläinen does better.

Sopanen got injured at the end, he was unable to put any weight on his left leg. Apart from few weaker plays he's been really solid in this event, would be a pity if this turns out to be something serious and he's out for several months.

Edit: actually Kähkönen has allowed 9 goals since the last goal against US White was an empty netter.

Does Vehvilainen have a solid shot of winning the #1 spot at this point?

 

[Tormentor]

I buy that Puljujarvi has the potential to challenge Matthews, but at this point Matthews is pretty clearly the superior prospect.

Why do you think Matthews is pretty clearly the superior prospect? Puljujärvi is bigger, stronger and faster than him. He has a better shot and is also 8 months younger than Matthews. There are aspects of the game where Matthews is still ahead, but that doesn't necessarily make him a superior prospects.

As for Laine, if you think a good U20 camp is enough to make him better than Matthews, you've got another issue altogether.

I'd say that Laine has been a tad better than both Matthews and Puljujärvi so far in this tourney. And as far as his upside goes, I think it's at least as high as with Matthews and Puljujärvi. If you disagree, please explain in more detail why you feel that way.

The ongoing U20 camp is the most recent and also the most competitive event where all 3 have played. I think this makes it rather significant when trying to determine the valuation of these prospects. And like I already mentioned in another thread, I don't think that Matthews has been playing like a clear-cut 1st overall in this event. I think both Laine and Puljujärvi have made a slightly stronger impact on the ice.

Does Vehvilainen have a solid shot of winning the #1 spot at this point?

I'd say that the odds are there. Kähkönen hasn't shined, so with a few strong showings Vehviläinen would certainly improve his stock.

 

[Kilipukki]

Tormentor have you seen all US and Fin games?

 

[Tormentor]

Tormentor have you seen all US and Fin games?

Yes, but only through FastHockey.

 

[cagney]

Why was Turgeon put in an offensive role for this game? He's not a talented offensive player and he was a total non-factor tonight. I don't need to see anymore.

Why are they messing around with Schmaltz on the point of the pp again? It didn't work last year and I don't see it working this year. Besides, he should be working to earn some pp time at this point rather than just having it handed to him.

Collins has regressed back to the worst I've seen of him. He brings no mobility, no sense, no offense and no toughness. Why is he still in play here? Werenski is more noticeable on the right side anyway so shift him back over there and be done with it.

Bittner was a huge disappointment in this game and his bad penalties almost sunk the team. I don't feel he is a good enough talent for an offensive role and I don't think he brings the energy or intensity for a depth role. He's on the outside looking in in my mind.

Bracco and Matthews clearly don't work together. You'd think someone from the NTDP would have explained the fact that the two were never slotted together rather than trying something that never worked before.

Matthews has not been 1st overall quality here and I can't argue in his favor in any 2016 prospect debate right now. He should clearly be the best player on the US team but he's just not playing like it. I don't know if it has to do with the uncertainty as to where he's playing next season or the constant linemate rotation but it'd be nice to see him make some kind of statement (ala Eichel's 8 points in two games last year) before the end of the camp. How about they just do something logical like play him with his old linemates Tkachuk and Roslovic?

I get it, these games don't matter, but it'd be nice to believe something is being accomplished with all of this.

 

[Kilipukki]

Yes, but only through FastHockey.

Does Laine use his linemates better than in u18 tournament last season, i think that was one of his biggest flaws there so was wondering has he improved in that area?

 

[Tormentor]

Does Laine use his linemates better than in u18 tournament last season, i think that was one of his biggest flaws there so was wondering has he improved in that area?

Laine is using his linemates well, both in transition and in the offensive zone. He's not trying to do too much by himself. He has good enough linemates in this event, sometimes that hasn't been the case back home in Finland.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Why do you think Matthews is pretty clearly the superior prospect? Puljujärvi is bigger, stronger and faster than him. He has a better shot and is also 8 months younger than Matthews. There are aspects of the game where Matthews is still ahead, but that doesn't necessarily make him a superior prospects.

I'd say that Laine has been a tad better than both Matthews and Puljujärvi so far in this tourney. And as far as his upside goes, I think it's at least as high as with Matthews and Puljujärvi. If you disagree, please explain in more detail why you feel that way.

The ongoing U20 camp is the most recent and also the most competitive event where all 3 have played. I think this makes it rather significant when trying to determine the valuation of these prospects. And like I already mentioned in another thread, I don't think that Matthews has been playing like a clear-cut 1st overall in this event. I think both Laine and Puljujärvi have made a slightly stronger impact on the ice.

Jake Virtanen is bigger, stronger, and faster than Sam Reinhart, has a better shot, and is 8 months younger. But Sam Reinhart is obviously the superior prospect. This is a very extreme and simplistic example, but the conclusion is the same: hockey sense. Matthews has better hockey sense, better defensive ability, and better hands. He's the better playmaker. And he is simply more valuable for being a center rather than a winger.

If you want to say that Puljujarvi is better, that's your prerogative. It's close enough that it's down to opinion. I'm a HUGE fan of Puljujarvi and me thinking Matthews is better is partially a reflection of how much I have watched Matthews and how well I know his game. You are obviously more familiar to Puljujarvi, so I'll defer to you to have your own opinion.

However, Laine is just clearly not on that level. Matthews is just plainly more talented, smarter, more unselfish, more well-rounded.

I really don't care how they perform in a summer camp, particularly Matthews and Puljujarvi, who know they're locks for their respective teams. If your only evidence that your two guys are better than Matthews, you clearly don't understand the importance of sample size.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Everyone who keeps ranking Matthews @ 1st overall after the ongoing Lake Placid U20 camp are just sheep following the consensus. Laine and Puljujärvi are better players and better prospects than him, it's obvious.

Or everyone has watched enough of all three not to let one camp change there minds. I have seen plenty of all three. If Puljujärvi ends up being picked #1 so be it.

However I will not look at a summer camp to point to the reason Matthews didn't go #1. And if the Yotes end up with the #1 pick, they will pick the kid who grew up in Arizona.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

"The ongoing U20 camp is the most recent and also the most competitive event where all 3 have played. I think this makes it rather significant when trying to determine the valuation of these prospects."

Only applies to fit your argument. Matthews shows up when it counts and always has.

 

[bobbyt 91*]

is this the Wash Kuznutsov playing for Russia? isn't he too old no I think its a 97 born Petr

 

[kelsier]

However, Laine is just clearly not on that level. Matthews is just plainly more talented, smarter, more unselfish, more well-rounded.

Underlined the parts where I agree. Being more well-rounded, faster and playing center are the obvious things working in Matthews favor at the moment when compared to Laine. He's definately not more skilled and you can make an argument of wether being more unselfish works for or against a natural goal scorer or not. I haven't seen Laine doing as much of the highlight reel stuff he's accustomed to but there have been glimbses of brilliancy in his offensive play. Laine has more natural instinct for the net than Matthews and has superior offensive arsenal overall (ability to score in multible ways). His lapshot, release and accuracy are phenomenal for someone his age, maybe even generational. In overall game Matthews is ahead and Laine does think more about himself. I don't think he's going ahead of Matthews in the draft unless he has unheard of a season. However there are facets he remains unmatched in regards to the other players of this age class.

Disregarded the Puljujärvi vs Matthews debate. At the moment the two are more closer to each other than Laine and Matthews.

 

[VictorLustig]

You need to remember this is a summer tournament. Many players haven't played a competitive game the last 4 months. I've seen really good players dominate these games in the past, but I've also seen very mediocre players stand out while the good ones don't impress. Deciding which top player is better after these games is rather pointless.

 

[FinProspects]

You need to remember this is a summer tournament. Many players haven't played a competitive game the last 4 months. I've seen really good players dominate these games in the past, but I've also seen very mediocre players stand out while the good ones don't impress. Deciding which top player is better after these games is rather pointless.

Generational players should always, always perform. Yes, its only a summer tournament, but Matthews should have been better.

Matthews 3g 1+1
Puljujärvi 3g 2+2
Laine 3g 3+2
Tkachuk 3g 3+2

Well, at least Laine has proved to be worthy of top10 player in this draft. I also wouldnt be suprised if Pulju would be #1 choice in some rankings during the fall either.

 

[thomast]

Jake Virtanen is bigger, stronger, and faster than Sam Reinhart, has a better shot, and is 8 months younger. But Sam Reinhart is obviously the superior prospect. This is a very extreme and simplistic example, but the conclusion is the same: hockey sense. Matthews has better hockey sense, better defensive ability, and better hands. He's the better playmaker. And he is simply more valuable for being a center rather than a winger.

If you want to say that Puljujarvi is better, that's your prerogative. It's close enough that it's down to opinion. I'm a HUGE fan of Puljujarvi and me thinking Matthews is better is partially a reflection of how much I have watched Matthews and how well I know his game. You are obviously more familiar to Puljujarvi, so I'll defer to you to have your own opinion.

However, Laine is just clearly not on that level. Matthews is just plainly more talented, smarter, more unselfish, more well-rounded.

I really don't care how they perform in a summer camp, particularly Matthews and Puljujarvi, who know they're locks for their respective teams. If your only evidence that your two guys are better than Matthews, you clearly don't understand the importance of sample size.

I've seen both Puljujärvi and Laine and i'm gonna say that Laine is maybe even more talented than Puljujärvi. His hands around the net are so lethal with his 6'5 frame and strength he has. He doesen't have skating ability of Puljujärvi but his positioning is excellent in the offensive zone and his shot... World class might be even generational like someone said. Laine is pretty good playmaker and can run the PP but when you have that kind of shot he is doing right and is shooting it instead.

To someone who said that Laine doesen't have game breaking ability you're totally wrong. At this point he seems to have more ability to decide games with his abilities than Puljujärvi. He is more dangerous on the PP.

I'm not going to join Puljujärvi vs Laine vs Matthews debate because i don't have enough views from Matthews. But i know that Tormentor is one of the most respected posters in these forums and has excellent eye for talent. There might be real case that Laine and Puljujärvi can be ahead of Matthews but i'll have to watch him more to say anything for that debate.

There was 100 NHL scouts/GMs at the game yesterday according to Mike Morreale. Not bad game to shine against other top prospects.

 

[FinProspects]

Laine probably has more raw talent than anyone in this draft. I've seen this guy do some moves and score some goals, that 195cm player shouldnt be able to do. It's also pretty special that a 2year underager leads the scoring in U20 tournament, especially this tournament.

BTW, how has Rantanen looked compared to PuljuLaine?

 

[VictorLustig]

Generational players should always, always perform. Yes, its only a summer tournament, but Matthews should have been better.

Matthews 3g 1+1
Puljujärvi 3g 2+2
Laine 3g 3+2
Tkachuk 3g 3+2

Well, at least Laine has proved to be worthy of top10 player in this draft. I also wouldnt be suprised if Pulju would be #1 choice in some rankings during the fall either.

I like all the players you mentioned, to different degrees, but none of them are generational talents.