Kyle Dubas Discussion

[Wafflewhipper]

I hate to interrupt this, sky is falling, armageddon, everything is black circle jerk, but continuously ignoring what has actually happened, and still being constantly gloomy is actually just sad.

This assumption that Dubas built his team for a certain way, and that it didn't work ignores what he's done everywhere else, here, and ignores what he's said. You can draft, and build skill, and bring in grinders... which funny enough, is exactly what has happened, but you know, ignore that reality.

Funny enough, the actual independent experts, call the Leafs a top ten, even a top five prospect pool. But these internet armchair geniuses know better right?

Remember back when our management, and coaching staff said that there would be pain, and that it would take time... well it takes time, and it's not linear. These posters complain about a lack of patience in making trades, and then demand trades, when they lose their patience. The irony is actually pretty funny.

Yes, Columbus was on the players, and in particular, Matthews, Nylander and Marner need to be better. Two are paid near league MVP levels, and need to play that way. Tavares too. We've seen this time and again, Ovechkin, Yzerman, Sakic... many of these greats took years to learn to win, yet, this is something we repeatedly ignore, to peddle some story of incompetence. Yes, for this team to succeed, they need to be the leaders to be just that.

On one page, we complain about a $3.5 mil 3C, being too much money for that position, and on another page, complain about having traded away a $4.5 mil 3C, as something that didn't need to happen.

Complaints about the team being worse... when really, it wasn't. A couple of regular season points.. that's about it... half of that's luck, injuries etc.... and really, all that matters is playoffs success, not winning the President's trophy. The team hasn't gotten any worse there, no better yet either for that matter.

Dubas job is safe, at least this year, and next year too.... If he can't move the team to some playoff success in that time period, then yes, there will be pressure on him from there.

There are those people who will always look for the negatives in life, and surely they will be successful in finding things to be negative about. How sad though.

Whats sad is your acceptance of reality. The team technically didn’t make the first round this year and lost. Three years of playoffs failure previously. A compete level that doesn’t match that great skill is definitely very visible when you look at how many goals they give up consistently every year for most part. Freddy has been bailing these guys out for three years and had a down year this year but was excellent in the playins and they didn’t score because the heavy Columbus team was to much trouble for them defensively. They didn’t go to the hard areas and play the hard minutes down low to win. They were shut out 3 times if you take away 3 minutes in game four.
It was us guys all along saying the team was to soft. So Dubas finally woke up and got some players to play the heavy minutes. Well big deal. He needed them years ago and traded for more soft in the Kadri trade. I can do without a fringe contract of $1,000,000 to keep Kadri every day. But we get Kerfoot ha. The guy is not a need and neither was Barrie. Barrie is one ofbthe very worst defensive dmen in the league. Thats all you want for Kadri and you are all positive about that well you have at it. They both suck.
When they are a top ten team I’ll say they are. Who’s calling them top ten,Toronto media ha. They do that so they can heap unreasonable expectations on them. This is not a contender we have unless multiple things change.

 

[Fogelhund]

Whats sad is your acceptance of reality. The team technically didn’t make the first round this year and lost. Three years of playoffs failure previously. A compete level that doesn’t match that great skill is definitely very visible when you look at how many goals they give up consistently every year for most part. Freddy has been bailing these guys out for three years and had a down year this year but was excellent in the playins and they didn’t score because the heavy Columbus team was to much trouble for them defensively. They didn’t go to the hard areas and play the hard minutes down low to win. They were shut out 3 times if you take away 3 minutes in game four.
It was us guys all along saying the team was to soft. So Dubas finally woke up and got some players to play the heavy minutes. Well big deal. He needed them years ago and traded for more soft in the Kadri trade. I can do without a fringe contract of $1,000,000 to keep Kadri every day. But we get Kerfoot ha. The guy is not a need and neither was Barrie. Barrie is one ofbthe very worst defensive dmen in the league. Thats all you want for Kadri and you are all positive about that well you have at it. They both suck.
When they are a top ten team I’ll say they are. Who’s calling them top ten,Toronto media ha. They do that so they can heap unreasonable expectations on them. This is not a contender we have unless multiple things change.

They made the playins/playoffs whatever... yes, they've lost three years in a row, in their first round of eliminations, post regular season. I agree, three years of playoff failure. Yes, we are on the same page, that the top guys need to play to win, not just put up stats over the year... no matter what changes we make otherwise, these guys to play a complete game, and they've not yet.

Dubas has been adding heavier guys for some time... Hyman, Muzzin, Clifford.. he's added heavier guys at the AHL level, and at the Soo... this is nothing new if you've been paying attention over time. Not enough of the right guys, sure... but every player needs to learn to compete harder, not just a bunch of grinders... see to elite guys.

It's time to move past this obsession with Kadri. We needed the cap space, and eight years of discipline issues saw him moved... end of story. Two and a half months, was more than enough time to call every team, and ask what their offer was... heck, you can do that in an afternoon... wait a week or two to get offers... you take the best one... If there were better, they would have taken that.. no amount of pretend armchair GM'ing changes that. Kerfoot is a 3C... and he's ok at that. We need him to be better though. Barrie was a RD plug, for a year, until Brodie could be signed.... He plugged a spot for a year... he played pretty good under Keefe, but he did suck defensively. He kept the offense going with Rielly down, particularly the PP. Sure, not a fit.. but the dollars, and one year deal was...

I haven't called them a top ten team, and have rarely thought that the offseason D was good enough. But, when you look at the big picture, player growth, changes in the depth... and in particular where the team is now... it's growing... I'm never going to make an off season prediction, as they've got to go prove that themselves. But then, I'm not mad, or upset, or always looking for negatives either.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

They made the playins/playoffs whatever... yes, they've lost three years in a row, in their first round of eliminations, post regular season. I agree, three years of playoff failure. Yes, we are on the same page, that the top guys need to play to win, not just put up stats over the year... no matter what changes we make otherwise, these guys to play a complete game, and they've not yet.

Dubas has been adding heavier guys for some time... Hyman, Muzzin, Clifford.. he's added heavier guys at the AHL level, and at the Soo... this is nothing new if you've been paying attention over time. Not enough of the right guys, sure... but every player needs to learn to compete harder, not just a bunch of grinders... see to elite guys.

It's time to move past this obsession with Kadri. We needed the cap space, and eight years of discipline issues saw him moved... end of story. Two and a half months, was more than enough time to call every team, and ask what their offer was... heck, you can do that in an afternoon... wait a week or two to get offers... you take the best one... If there were better, they would have taken that.. no amount of pretend armchair GM'ing changes that. Kerfoot is a 3C... and he's ok at that. We need him to be better though. Barrie was a RD plug, for a year, until Brodie could be signed.... He plugged a spot for a year... he played pretty good under Keefe, but he did suck defensively. He kept the offense going with Rielly down, particularly the PP. Sure, not a fit.. but the dollars, and one year deal was...

I haven't called them a top ten team, and have rarely thought that the offseason D was good enough. But, when you look at the big picture, player growth, changes in the depth... and in particular where the team is now... it's growing... I'm never going to make an off season prediction, as they've got to go prove that themselves. But then, I'm not mad, or upset, or always looking for negatives either.

Dubas has done lots of good things. Drafting has been positive to say the least of it.
Muzzy great pickup
Campbell great pickup
Mikheyev,Barabanov and Lehtonen even though not proven on two of them were very highly coveted and We got them.
He’s been fine.

 

[Menzinger]

Tampa traded for and now has signed Maroon and Goodrow and they'll be making $900 and $925 thousand each next year, so 3rd 4th line muscle isn't something a team needs to draft but having those types of players is good so long as they can play. Goodrow didn't make the NHL until he was 22, Maroon 25 so drafting those types of players wouldn't result in anything until Marner, Nylander and Matthews would be on the downside of their careers.

Draft talent first, all teams need talent, gritty grinders that become 3rd and 4th liners can be found many different ways including the draft. Gauthier is a prime example of a team thinking they'll need a big center so that a team drafts him to fill that role, eventually, even tho there might be more talented players available in that draft. There were quite a few truly good players drafted after Gauthier but none of them were as big as him.

Not to mention the team tried taking s number of bigger and grittier guys in the 2016 and 17 draft cycles and almost all of them look to be busts

 

[Menzinger]

The guys he added to the bottom six wont be on the ice in key situations. This team will win or lose based on the guys making $40M, Reilly and the goalie. Everything else is window dressing.

Ironically Tampa refuses to follow through with such drastic decisions after a humiliating regression just the season prior. They responded by retooling a few depth positions.

So either good teams can run into bad luck in a short series; or new depth players can make a big difference; or their established core learned from the experience of getting swept

Whichever explanation you'd select to be the best,, they all to seem to pretty much contradict your earlier claim that a drastic move had to happen this offseason

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Ironically Tampa refuses to follow through with such drastic decisions after a humiliating regression just the season prior. They responded by retooling a few depth positions.

So either good teams can run into bad luck in a short series; or new depth players can make a big difference; or their established core learned from the experience of getting swept

Whichever explanation you'd select to be the best,, they all to seem to pretty much contradict your earlier claim that a drastic move had to happen this offseason

The critics basically tell all of us the Leafs deserve much les time than any other team.

 

[The CyNick]

The answer is one.

It is also 50% of the 5 on 5 goals the TEAM scored in 5 games.

So hes a beast then or terrible?

$11.634M for ONE goal in the most critical portion of the season seems pretty inept to me.

 

[The CyNick]

I hate to interrupt this, sky is falling, armageddon, everything is black circle jerk, but continuously ignoring what has actually happened, and still being constantly gloomy is actually just sad.

This assumption that Dubas built his team for a certain way, and that it didn't work ignores what he's done everywhere else, here, and ignores what he's said. You can draft, and build skill, and bring in grinders... which funny enough, is exactly what has happened, but you know, ignore that reality.

Funny enough, the actual independent experts, call the Leafs a top ten, even a top five prospect pool. But these internet armchair geniuses know better right?

Remember back when our management, and coaching staff said that there would be pain, and that it would take time... well it takes time, and it's not linear. These posters complain about a lack of patience in making trades, and then demand trades, when they lose their patience. The irony is actually pretty funny.

Yes, Columbus was on the players, and in particular, Matthews, Nylander and Marner need to be better. Two are paid near league MVP levels, and need to play that way. Tavares too. We've seen this time and again, Ovechkin, Yzerman, Sakic... many of these greats took years to learn to win, yet, this is something we repeatedly ignore, to peddle some story of incompetence. Yes, for this team to succeed, they need to be the leaders to be just that.

On one page, we complain about a $3.5 mil 3C, being too much money for that position, and on another page, complain about having traded away a $4.5 mil 3C, as something that didn't need to happen.

Complaints about the team being worse... when really, it wasn't. A couple of regular season points.. that's about it... half of that's luck, injuries etc.... and really, all that matters is playoffs success, not winning the President's trophy. The team hasn't gotten any worse there, no better yet either for that matter.

Dubas job is safe, at least this year, and next year too.... If he can't move the team to some playoff success in that time period, then yes, there will be pressure on him from there.

There are those people who will always look for the negatives in life, and surely they will be successful in finding things to be negative about. How sad though.

You could turn the same argument around to you and say you're just being overly optimistic grounded only in fandom. Which is fine, you can do that. I choose to be levelheaded about how I view the team, same as I would any team in the league.

It's an odd strategy to lump multiple posters in one response and expect to see consistency in the arguements presented. Those of us critical of aspects of the team are not part of some political party speaking from the same talking points. Everyone has their own views and should be respected as individuals, instead of being lazily lumped together.

The discussion is about Dubas' body of work. I am not going restate every opinion I have on his moves as GM. I would suggest you read ALL of my past posts as they come highly recommended. You can PM me if you want to debate anything specific.

So far Dubas now with three offseasons behind him has taken the Leafs backwards every season. This past season being the worst where the Dubas assembled Leafs could not even get past a middle of the road team like Columbus to QUALIFY for the round of 16 traditional playoffs. Nothing done this past offseason would suggest anything will change with the team. No drastic changes were made.

When it comes to whether Dubas is on thin ice, the past history of the organization would suggest he is. The previous GM acquired the majority of the cornerstone pieces of this franchise. He built around the edges and took a basement team to a franchise record in points. He was given a couple tries to get out of the first round and the extremely young, overachieving Leafs couldn't close the deal against two very tough teams. Dubas has now had a first round failure and a failure to even qualify for the first round. Given the past, why wouldn't it be fair to assume that the now far more experienced group of Leafs should be expected to be well beyond the first round by now, nevermind missing the first round altogether? I would suggest if Dubas' job isn't on the line, then Shanny's must be given ALL the failures were under his watch.

 

[Kiwi]

Not to mention the team tried taking s number of bigger and grittier guys in the 2016 and 17 draft cycles and almost all of them look to be busts

To be fair most of the guys not taken high in the 16' and 17' drafts look like busts, including the smaller guys

Our ability to evaluate talent looks far better now than it did back then

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

You could turn the same argument around to you and say you're just being overly optimistic grounded only in fandom. Which is fine, you can do that. I choose to be levelheaded about how I view the team, same as I would any team in the league.

It's an odd strategy to lump multiple posters in one response and expect to see consistency in the arguements presented. Those of us critical of aspects of the team are not part of some political party speaking from the same talking points. Everyone has their own views and should be respected as individuals, instead of being lazily lumped together.

The discussion is about Dubas' body of work. I am not going restate every opinion I have on his moves as GM. I would suggest you read ALL of my past posts as they come highly recommended. You can PM me if you want to debate anything specific.

So far Dubas now with three offseasons behind him has taken the Leafs backwards every season. This past season being the worst where the Dubas assembled Leafs could not even get past a middle of the road team like Columbus to QUALIFY for the round of 16 traditional playoffs. Nothing done this past offseason would suggest anything will change with the team. No drastic changes were made.

When it comes to whether Dubas is on thin ice, the past history of the organization would suggest he is. The previous GM acquired the majority of the cornerstone pieces of this franchise. He built around the edges and took a basement team to a franchise record in points. He was given a couple tries to get out of the first round and the extremely young, overachieving Leafs couldn't close the deal against two very tough teams. Dubas has now had a first round failure and a failure to even qualify for the first round. Given the past, why wouldn't it be fair to assume that the now far more experienced group of Leafs should be expected to be well beyond the first round by now, nevermind missing the first round altogether? I would suggest if Dubas' job isn't on the line, then Shanny's must be given ALL the failures were under his watch.

Because trading elite young talent is a dumb idea and no one in the NHL does it. Remember when people wanted 22 year-old Nylander gone for a "top 4 D" worse than TJ Brodie? How does that look now? You would have gladly taken that Nylander for Brandon Montour they were offered.
There's no patience here . People think Leafs deserve much les time to build than any other team.
Leafs won 0 playoff rounds before Dubas was GM and this year was interrupted by COVID. Saying they've taken a "Step back" is a little melodramatic.
It makes my head explode when I see people wanting Marner and Nylander pushed out the door when we have not seen close to their best yet.
There would be massive second-guessing if they are moved and put up huge seasons with their new teams.

BTW, what's your feeling on how incredible and deep our prospect pool has gotten since Dubas became GM? Leafs look pretty set for quite a long time. That's without any top picks,

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

So hes a beast then or terrible?

$11.634M for ONE goal in the most critical portion of the season seems pretty inept to me.

better than what Marleau and Zaitsev gave us for 10.8.

 

[The CyNick]

Because trading elite young talent is a dumb idea and no one in the NHL does it. Remember when people wanted 22 year-old Nylander gone for a "top 4 D" worse than TJ Brodie? How does that look now? You would have gladly taken that Nylander for Brandon Montour they were offered.
There's no patience here . People think Leafs deserve much les time to build than any other team.
Leafs won 0 playoff rounds before Dubas was GM and this year was interrupted by COVID. Saying they've taken a "Step back" is a little melodramatic.
It makes my head explode when I see people wanting Marner and Nylander pushed out the door when we have not seen close to their best yet.
There would be massive second-guessing if they are moved and put up huge seasons with their new teams.

BTW, what's your feeling on how incredible and deep our prospect pool has gotten since Dubas became GM? Leafs look pretty set for quite a long time. That's without any top picks,

I completely disagree on the depth of the prospect pool. Nothing coming at centre, nothing in goal. Likely one top six in the pipeline at D (Sandin). The usual crop of wingers that look good and most likely dont turn into much. Robertson was an OHL hero. Nick Kypreos was a beast in the O. Doesn't mean anything. The Russian kid is playing on the 4th line in a bad league. Who knows what they turn into.

BTW - I never recommended any of those trades.

 

[The CyNick]

better than what Marleau and Zaitsev gave us for 10.8.

I don't know about that. Those players got us into the 1st round at least.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I completely disagree on the depth of the prospect pool. Nothing coming at centre, nothing in goal. Likely one top six in the pipeline at D (Sandin). The usual crop of wingers that look good and most likely dont turn into much. Robertson was an OHL hero. Nick Kypreos was a beast in the O. Doesn't mean anything. The Russian kid is playing on the 4th line in a bad league. Who knows what they turn into.

BTW - I never recommended any of those trades.

They're being ranked top 10 across the board already. Very impressive given lack of high picks,. Dubas is doing much better than Hunter.
Not sure where Nick Kypreos comes from, Point is, compared to other players drafted around him the Robertson pick looks great. And how did he get Amirov and Hallandar for Kapanen?

Byron Bader on Twitter: "NHL Team Prospect Pool Strength Rankings - Post 2020 Draft https://t.co/NlBT2Hot2t" / Twitter

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I don't know about that. Those players got us into the 1st round at least.

Leafs were in the first round before Marleau ever joined them.
Classic Lou, overpaying supporting talent. Leo Komorov means he needed to almost give away Toews.

 

[The CyNick]

They're being ranked top 10 across the board already. Very impressive given lack of high picks,. Dubas is doing much better than Hunter.
Not sure where Nick Kypreos comes from, Point is, compared to other players drafted around him the Robertson pick looks great.

Do Dubas is the head scout?

Robertson looks great now. I don't trust any online sources.

If you think about the time it takes to track players, it's impossible to think anyone has a handle on all of them to create a list across the league.

I watch an incredible amount of hockey and even I can't watch enough to know how every prospect matches up throughout multiple leagues in several countries. I generally just go by watching them play. I've seen Robertson now at every level. I think hes got some skills, but I dont think hes a surefire bet to be a full time NHLer ever. I think there are a ton of holes in his game that will get exploited over time. That said, he does have some high end skills, so maybe he does make it.

But regardless, I look for teams who have prospects in the key positions. Leafs few promising prospects are in the least important position in the game.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Do Dubas is the head scout?

Robertson looks great now. I don't trust any online sources.

If you think about the time it takes to track players, it's impossible to think anyone has a handle on all of them to create a list across the league.

I watch an incredible amount of hockey and even I can't watch enough to know how every prospect matches up throughout multiple leagues in several countries. I generally just go by watching them play. I've seen Robertson now at every level. I think hes got some skills, but I dont think hes a surefire bet to be a full time NHLer ever. I think there are a ton of holes in his game that will get exploited over time. That said, he does have some high end skills, so maybe he does make it.

But regardless, I look for teams who have prospects in the key positions. Leafs few promising prospects are in the least important position in the game.

You can move that organizational depth to address other needs. That's where I think you are wrong. Because you are lacking a Centre, you don't go and draft a centre. You draft BPA 10 out of 10 times. I saw Dubas getting destroyed for taking Amirov draft night. The cries has gone away already as time has gone on. That's because people have researched him and realized what an elite prospect he is.

Leafs look like a very healthy overall organization from top to bottom.

Here's an example
Prospect Info: - 2020 1st Rd Selection - #15 OA - LW Rodion Amirov (RUS) - 6'0", 177lbs

Because Amirov was a small skiled forward, he wasn't a need. You wanted Dubas to address a need with his first rounder. No. You pick the best player. Amirov is a stud. Imagine if you offer him in a draft?

 

[Fogelhund]

You could turn the same argument around to you and say you're just being overly optimistic grounded only in fandom. Which is fine, you can do that. I choose to be levelheaded about how I view the team, same as I would any team in the league.

It's an odd strategy to lump multiple posters in one response and expect to see consistency in the arguements presented. Those of us critical of aspects of the team are not part of some political party speaking from the same talking points. Everyone has their own views and should be respected as individuals, instead of being lazily lumped together.

The discussion is about Dubas' body of work. I am not going restate every opinion I have on his moves as GM. I would suggest you read ALL of my past posts as they come highly recommended. You can PM me if you want to debate anything specific.

So far Dubas now with three offseasons behind him has taken the Leafs backwards every season. This past season being the worst where the Dubas assembled Leafs could not even get past a middle of the road team like Columbus to QUALIFY for the round of 16 traditional playoffs. Nothing done this past offseason would suggest anything will change with the team. No drastic changes were made.

When it comes to whether Dubas is on thin ice, the past history of the organization would suggest he is. The previous GM acquired the majority of the cornerstone pieces of this franchise. He built around the edges and took a basement team to a franchise record in points. He was given a couple tries to get out of the first round and the extremely young, overachieving Leafs couldn't close the deal against two very tough teams. Dubas has now had a first round failure and a failure to even qualify for the first round. Given the past, why wouldn't it be fair to assume that the now far more experienced group of Leafs should be expected to be well beyond the first round by now, nevermind missing the first round altogether? I would suggest if Dubas' job isn't on the line, then Shanny's must be given ALL the failures were under his watch.

1. You've claim that the prospect pool is poor, yet it's regularly rated top 5, or top 10 by the experts. I suspect, it lacks a certain element you are looking for, hence your ratings.

2. You speak of the failures of the team in the playoffs. How long did it take Yzerman, Sakic, Ovechkin, Hedman, Kucherov, Tampa as a whole, the St. Louis Blues, to succeed?.... all these players, teams, took time to grow, took time to learn how to win. We have a talented core, but they don't know how to win yet. Let's be honest, it wouldn't matter who the GM was, or what the surrounding cast was yet.. these guys, don't know how to win. Maybe they learn, maybe they don't. But this is a time, and patience thing. Trading Yzerman, Sakic, Ovechkin, Hedman, Kucherov, Pietrangelo, and so on, would have been foolish. So would trading our guys. You give them time to grown, and eventually you build a good surrounding case. We've had some good voices in the room, but it hasn't done the trick yet... now we have more. For those who are level headed, we've seen that the team composition wasn't going to get it done, at the beginning of the season. The D just hasn't been good enough, or deep enough. It looks a lot better finally, and it certainly is deep... Is it good enough... we will find out. But, we also know, that the forwards haven't helped out on D... we need them to learn to have a full sheet of ice commitment... and to play hard. Our Goaltending hasn't been good enough beyond Andersen... I think this has been finally addressed, in both backup, and #3..

This franchise preached pain was coming. This franchise preached patience.

It takes time to build the right team. Talk of Barrie and Ceci last year, they were plugs filling a position... frankly, there wasn't much available last year, particularly at Barrie's pay. It looks like we finally had the opportunity to rework the team.

Yet, fans aren't patient, including yourself.

No chance Dubas is on thin ice, nor should he be. No chance Shanahan is on thin ice, nor should he be. The core players are simply too young, for there to be that lack of patience.

If we are talking about this in a couple of years, and they still haven't won a round, I'm right there with you. Even next year, with no success, I'm saying, these guys need to be put on watch.

It's too soon for this level of doomsday.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I'm glad Lou is gone, but I can gladly give him compliments for great things he's done. These Dubas haters, I don't get it.

 

[The CyNick]

1. You've claim that the prospect pool is poor, yet it's regularly rated top 5, or top 10 by the experts. I suspect, it lacks a certain element you are looking for, hence your ratings.

2. You speak of the failures of the team in the playoffs. How long did it take Yzerman, Sakic, Ovechkin, Hedman, Kucherov, Tampa as a whole, the St. Louis Blues, to succeed?.... all these players, teams, took time to grow, took time to learn how to win. We have a talented core, but they don't know how to win yet. Let's be honest, it wouldn't matter who the GM was, or what the surrounding cast was yet.. these guys, don't know how to win. Maybe they learn, maybe they don't. But this is a time, and patience thing. Trading Yzerman, Sakic, Ovechkin, Hedman, Kucherov, Pietrangelo, and so on, would have been foolish. So would trading our guys. You give them time to grown, and eventually you build a good surrounding case. We've had some good voices in the room, but it hasn't done the trick yet... now we have more. For those who are level headed, we've seen that the team composition wasn't going to get it done, at the beginning of the season. The D just hasn't been good enough, or deep enough. It looks a lot better finally, and it certainly is deep... Is it good enough... we will find out. But, we also know, that the forwards haven't helped out on D... we need them to learn to have a full sheet of ice commitment... and to play hard. Our Goaltending hasn't been good enough beyond Andersen... I think this has been finally addressed, in both backup, and #3..

This franchise preached pain was coming. This franchise preached patience.

It takes time to build the right team. Talk of Barrie and Ceci last year, they were plugs filling a position... frankly, there wasn't much available last year, particularly at Barrie's pay. It looks like we finally had the opportunity to rework the team.

Yet, fans aren't patient, including yourself.

No chance Dubas is on thin ice, nor should he be. No chance Shanahan is on thin ice, nor should he be. The core players are simply too young, for there to be that lack of patience.

If we are talking about this in a couple of years, and they still haven't won a round, I'm right there with you. Even next year, with no success, I'm saying, these guys need to be put on watch.

It's too soon for this level of doomsday.

So why did Lou get moved out? What did he do wrong? Basement to franchise record in points. Playoffs way before most "experts" thought possible. Competitive series against much better, or more experienced teams.

Is this the team Dubas expects to win with? Like why give up a guy as valuable around the league as Kadri for a guy who is a seat filler like Barrie? Seems like poor asset management. Why toss away a 1st round pick to keep AJ and Kap only to move them out a year later?

At what point are people allowed to expect Dubas to do well with the team he assembled? At what point is it okay to question his player personnel moves? What if they got embarrassed by a zamboni driver? What if they lost to three of the worst teams in the league at a critical point in the season? What if they put up 0 goals in multiple games of a 5 game qualifying series against a middling team?

You bring up teams that failed for years. Is that the new measuring stick? Be a failure for over a decade, we'll keep you on, and hopefully at some point you can backdoor a Cup? When Lou was here, the talk was this could be the next Pitt, LA or Chicago. Again, those darn goalposts keep moving.

Plus most of the teams you mentioned actually at least had regular season success. Washington had dominant regular seasons as did Tampa. Dubas took over a franchise record points and went down year after year. So while teams like Washington and Tampa, have had playoff failures, at least they had something to show as hope. What has Dubas done? Drafted some Russian kid? Great.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

When Lou teams lose it's a "Competitive series". If Dubas teams lose in 7 he needs to be fired LOL
Leafs won 0 playoff rounds under Lou. They got 105 points because they were the second healthiest team in the NHL. Compare their health to last year's team.
Under Keefe Leafs had 103 point pace with brutal injuries and the worst goaltending Leafs have gotten in years.

 

[X66]

I'm glad Lou is gone, but I can gladly give him compliments for great things he's done. These Dubas haters, I don't get it.

This is what I don't get lol, Leafs fans give him credit for a culture change, and the Andersen, Rielly and Kadri deals. The Phaneuf trade was another good one.

Problem is he offset a lot of that that with the Martin, Zaitsev and Marleau contracts.

 

[Fogelhund]

So why did Lou get moved out? What did he do wrong? Basement to franchise record in points. Playoffs way before most "experts" thought possible. Competitive series against much better, or more experienced teams.

Is this the team Dubas expects to win with? Like why give up a guy as valuable around the league as Kadri for a guy who is a seat filler like Barrie? Seems like poor asset management. Why toss away a 1st round pick to keep AJ and Kap only to move them out a year later?

At what point are people allowed to expect Dubas to do well with the team he assembled? At what point is it okay to question his player personnel moves? What if they got embarrassed by a zamboni driver? What if they lost to three of the worst teams in the league at a critical point in the season? What if they put up 0 goals in multiple games of a 5 game qualifying series against a middling team?

You bring up teams that failed for years. Is that the new measuring stick? Be a failure for over a decade, we'll keep you on, and hopefully at some point you can backdoor a Cup? When Lou was here, the talk was this could be the next Pitt, LA or Chicago. Again, those darn goalposts keep moving.

Plus most of the teams you mentioned actually at least had regular season success. Washington had dominant regular seasons as did Tampa. Dubas took over a franchise record points and went down year after year. So while teams like Washington and Tampa, have had playoff failures, at least they had something to show as hope. What has Dubas done? Drafted some Russian kid? Great.

Why did Lou get moved? You don't remember?

Why give a guy like Kadri up? You somehow missed eight years of problem behaviour, run in's with every executive, public calls out of immature behaviour and insubordiations? You missed the NTC?

Yup... Dubas took a team with 105 points, and ended up last year, with a team that paced for 103 points with Keefe, and a slew of injuries. Woot, two points, the sky is falling. And really, who cares about regular season points at this point?

What has Dubas done? You don't follow this team? Really?

I mean, it's the Cynic, we get it, the sky is always falling.

 

[Menzinger]

Critiquing Dubas for things like thr AJ trade are odd since it ignores a global pandemic that crunched league finances and blocking an expected 3-4 mil cap raise.

Its actually pretty remarkable that thr Leafs were able to position themselves to add a 5 mil D man given the circumstances

 

[ACC1224]

Critiquing Dubas for things like thr AJ trade are odd since it ignores a global pandemic that crunched league finances and blocking an expected 3-4 mil cap raise.

Its actually pretty remarkable that thr Leafs were able to position themselves to add a 5 mil D man given the circumstances

Yep hard to find fault this off season. Let’s hope it translates into results on the ice.