Kyle Dubas Discussion

[Menzinger]

Yep hard to find fault this off season. Let’s hope it translates into results on the ice.

Hes got his roster and coach. Its time to deliver results.

 

[Martin Skoula]

This is what I don't get lol, Leafs fans give him credit for a culture change, and the Andersen, Rielly and Kadri deals. The Phaneuf trade was another good one.

Problem is he offset a lot of that that with the Martin, Zaitsev and Marleau contracts.

Getting RFAs with no leverage to sign market value deals is much less of a "good" move than Marleau or Zaitsev are bad ones on their own. Phaneuf was a good move but that was a function of being able to take advantage of a last place roster with cap space - we took on more money and a bigger cap hit in year 1 than the Sens did. Obviously this would not be possible with a competitive roster against the cap.

I have a hard time seeing Kadri coming off a 39 point season, Rielly coming off 36 points with no defense, or Andersen without a starter's workload (43 games, lost his job to a rookie) being able to ask for more than they got.

I like what Lou did in terms of the team's image and culture, but the RFA contracts are a really low bar to clear for praise compared to the bad things he did.

 

[BertCorbeau]

You could turn the same argument around to you and say you're just being overly optimistic grounded only in fandom. Which is fine, you can do that. I choose to be levelheaded about how I view the team, same as I would any team in the league.

It's an odd strategy to lump multiple posters in one response and expect to see consistency in the arguements presented. Those of us critical of aspects of the team are not part of some political party speaking from the same talking points. Everyone has their own views and should be respected as individuals, instead of being lazily lumped together.

The discussion is about Dubas' body of work. I am not going restate every opinion I have on his moves as GM. I would suggest you read ALL of my past posts as they come highly recommended. You can PM me if you want to debate anything specific.

So far Dubas now with three offseasons behind him has taken the Leafs backwards every season. This past season being the worst where the Dubas assembled Leafs could not even get past a middle of the road team like Columbus to QUALIFY for the round of 16 traditional playoffs. Nothing done this past offseason would suggest anything will change with the team. No drastic changes were made.

When it comes to whether Dubas is on thin ice, the past history of the organization would suggest he is. The previous GM acquired the majority of the cornerstone pieces of this franchise. He built around the edges and took a basement team to a franchise record in points. He was given a couple tries to get out of the first round and the extremely young, overachieving Leafs couldn't close the deal against two very tough teams. Dubas has now had a first round failure and a failure to even qualify for the first round. Given the past, why wouldn't it be fair to assume that the now far more experienced group of Leafs should be expected to be well beyond the first round by now, nevermind missing the first round altogether? I would suggest if Dubas' job isn't on the line, then Shanny's must be given ALL the failures were under his watch.

Ugh, wrong there chief. GM's when the following players were acquired:

Matthews - Lou
Nylander - Nonis
Marner - Hunter/Dubas
Hyman - Hunter/Dubas
Tavares - Dubas
Rielly - Burke
Muzzin - Dubas
Andersen - Lou

And if you consider Kadri a cornerstone at the time, he was also drafted by Burke.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Getting RFAs with no leverage to sign market value deals is much less of a "good" move than Marleau or Zaitsev are bad ones on their own. Phaneuf was a good move but that was a function of being able to take advantage of a last place roster with cap space - we took on more money and a bigger cap hit in year 1 than the Sens did. Obviously this would not be possible with a competitive roster against the cap.

I have a hard time seeing Kadri coming off a 39 point season, Rielly coming off 36 points with no defense, or Andersen without a starter's workload (43 games, lost his job to a rookie) being able to ask for more than they got.

I like what Lou did in terms of the team's image and culture, but the RFA contracts are a really low bar to clear for praise compared to the bad things he did.

Ed Zachary.

 

[Fogelhund]

Ugh, wrong there chief. GM's when the following players were acquired:

Matthews - Lou
Nylander - Nonis
Marner - Hunter/Dubas
Hyman - Hunter/Dubas
Tavares - Dubas
Rielly - Burke
Muzzin - Dubas
Andersen - Lou

And if you consider Kadri a cornerstone at the time, he was also drafted by Burke.

Brodie - Dubas

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

The previous GM acquired the majority of the cornerstone pieces of this franchise. He built around the edges and took a basement team to a franchise record in points.

Dear God. For someone who "watches an incredible amount of hockey" you should try maybe watching the Leafs sometime? He acquired Andersen (full credit) and Matthews (by virtue of having the #1 overall pick). Almost everyone on that 105 point team came from other management (including Dubas before him). Unless you give him credit for getting to pick first overall ONE of the top ten forwards was acquired by Lou: Patrick Marleau.

 

[Menzinger]

Ugh, wrong there chief. GM's when the following players were acquired:

Matthews - Lou
Nylander - Nonis
Marner - Hunter/Dubas
Hyman - Hunter/Dubas
Tavares - Dubas
Rielly - Burke
Muzzin - Dubas
Andersen - Lou

And if you consider Kadri a cornerstone at the time, he was also drafted by Burke.

Yep, a strange mistake to make too lol.

It is a bit interesting how relatively few cornerstone pieces were added to to the team under his tenure. Basically just Andersen and Matthews. And we can hope Liljegren turns into something. Other then thay, not much to talk about, especially from the draft in those years.

Folks can get to be a bit too critical of Lou around here, but at the same time no need to credit him with the work that literally other GMs made.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Getting RFAs with no leverage to sign market value deals is much less of a "good" move than Marleau or Zaitsev are bad ones on their own. Phaneuf was a good move but that was a function of being able to take advantage of a last place roster with cap space - we took on more money and a bigger cap hit in year 1 than the Sens did. Obviously this would not be possible with a competitive roster against the cap.

I have a hard time seeing Kadri coming off a 39 point season, Rielly coming off 36 points with no defense, or Andersen without a starter's workload (43 games, lost his job to a rookie) being able to ask for more than they got.

I like what Lou did in terms of the team's image and culture, but the RFA contracts are a really low bar to clear for praise compared to the bad things he did.

This is `100% true. They are viewed as great deals now, but really were not at the time. It's like the people who claim Nate Mackinnon took some massive discount. People need perspective about the deals the players were worth at the time. Rielly could not have asked for more given the cap max and his stats at the time. Kadri had a horrific shooting % the season prior to signing which hurt his numbers (But helped the Leafs).

Look at how perceptions have already changed about Nylander's deal in such a short period of time

 

[Martin Skoula]

This is `100% true. They are viewed as great deals now, but really were not at the time. It's like the people who claim Nate Mackinnon took some massive discount. People need perspective about the deals the players were worth at the time. Rielly could not have asked for more given the cap max and his stats at the time. Kadri had a horrific shooting % the season prior to signing which hurt his numbers (But helped the Leafs).

Look at how perceptions have already changed about Nylander's deal in such a short period of time

We're lucky we're not talking about at least one those deals as being saddled with 4.5-5.5 for a poor man's Torrey Krug, 3C with no offense, or tandem 1B goalie. Kadri and Rielly had to take huge leaps to make those deals look like steals.

The length on the deals isn't great either. Consider that this is coming off a last place team with "pain" on the way, 3-4 years of those extensions are going to be with a growing team, and just as the high picks hit their primes and inflate everyone's totals, both your 2C (at the time) and 1D are due raises through 100% UFA years. If you're willing to bet 30 million on Rielly becoming a 1D, why not go for something closer to the Dumba deal where you bridge him and get him for 6-7 mil through his prime?

 

[Garthinater]

We're lucky we're not talking about at least one those deals as being saddled with 4.5-5.5 for a poor man's Torrey Krug, 3C with no offense, or tandem 1B goalie. Kadri and Rielly had to take huge leaps to make those deals look like steals.

The length on the deals isn't great either. Consider that this is coming off a last place team with "pain" on the way, 3-4 years of those extensions are going to be with a growing team, and just as the high picks hit their primes and inflate everyone's totals, both your 2C (at the time) and 1D are due raises through 100% UFA years. If you're willing to bet 30 million on Rielly becoming a 1D, why not go for something closer to the Dumba deal where you bridge him and get him for 6-7 mil through his prime?

Woah that is quiet the reach to try and detract from the great contract that rielly has.

If you want to chirp a signing, dubas has plenty that are far worse and much more recent.

I honestly can't believe you are saying that lou shouldve done a better job with rielly's contact when he has the best deal of the entire team.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Woah that is quiet the reach to try and detract from the great contract that rielly has.

If you want to chirp a signing, dubas has plenty that are far worse and much more recent.

I honestly can't believe you are saying that lou shouldve done a better job with rielly's contact when he has the best deal of the entire team.

Because Rielly's contract is 2/3rds done and you've seen the result. Maybe wait and see how these deals play-out? Within 1 years Nylander's perception of his deal has vastly changed.

5 million per is all Rielly could get at the time. Doesn't make it a bad deal, it's great. But he could not possibly get more at the time.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Woah that is quiet the reach to try and detract from the great contract that rielly has.

If you want to chirp a signing, dubas has plenty that are far worse and much more recent.

I honestly can't believe you are saying that lou shouldve done a better job with rielly's contact when he has the best deal of the entire team.

Rielly signed that contract in April of 2016 after scoring 36 pts and didn't break out till 2 seasons later. Great contract for us now but was considered fair for both sides at the time.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Fans can never put context into deals. Brad Marchand took millions less!!! Uh, no. He was a 1 time 60 point forward after 7 years....
Mackinnon took millions less! Why can't Leaf players do that? Mackinnon was a 60 point forward....

Rielly was not a steal at 5 million per at all. It wasn't bad, it was simply a deal which would look great if Rielly developed like they believed he could. Now we say it's a great deal.

Marner had 94 points. Leafs were in a tough spot. Marner even managed 69 points with oddly low TOI given to him by Babcock in his 2nd season. The 2nd half of that season showed he was on his way to elite numbers.

 

[Tairy Greene]

Fans can never put context into deals. Brad Marchand took millions less!!! Uh, no. He was a 1 time 60 point forward after 7 years....
Mackinnon took millions less! Why can't Leaf players do that? Mackinnon was a 60 point forward....

Rielly was not a steal at 5 million per at all. It wasn't bad, it was simply a deal which would look great if Rielly developed like they believed he could. Now we say it's a great deal.

Marner had 94 points. Leafs were in a tough spot. Marner even managed 69 points with oddly low TOI given to him by Babcock in his 2nd season. The 2nd half of that season showed he was on his way to elite numbers.

Part of being a good gm is anticipating what kind of player someone will become, and then locking them up. Dubas signed Nylander anticipating he becomes an 80 point player, if he stayed a 60 pt player it's not a very good contract. GMs also get a bit lucky sometimes, it still makes them good GMs.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

Part of being a good gm is anticipating what kind of player someone will become, and then locking them up. Dubas signed Nylander anticipating he becomes an 80 point player, if he stayed a 60 pt player it's not a very good contract. GMs also get a bit lucky sometimes, it still makes them good GMs.

Nylander was on a 42 goal pace once Keefe became coach and gave him proper PP and overall TOI...

And BTW, his contract with a 31 goal season in 70 games looks really good as it is. He's signed in his prime.

Would a guy with Nylander's stats and his age be seen as "Overpaid" in any other market? 6.9 all in his prime..

80+ point players want more than 6.9 through their primes. (Unless they sign for half the term Nylander did).

 

[Tairy Greene]

Nylander was on a 42 goal pace once Keefe became coach and gave him proper PP and overall TOI...

And BTW, his contract with a 31 goal season in 70 games looks really good as it is. He's signed in his prime.

Would a guy with Nylander's stats and his age be seen as "Overpaid" in any other market? 6.9 all in his prime..

80+ point players want more than 6.9 through their primes. (Unless they sign for half the term Nylander did).

I think it's a good contract. My argument is that you were basically saying if he were to become a Hart trophy winner the GM wouldn't get credit for the contract because when he signed it was fair value. GMs should get full credit for locking guys like McKinnon up cheap. They must have seen some potential there

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I think it's a good contract. My argument is that you were basically saying if he were to become a Hart trophy winner the GM wouldn't get credit for the contract because when he signed it was fair value. GMs should get full credit for locking guys like McKinnon up cheap. They must have seen some potential there

My point is though there needs to be perspective. Mackinnon got every penny he was worth at the time. Now the narrative becomes he took a massive discount. Even Mackinnon himself and the media claimed that.

Rielly is a good deal. It's just it wasn't seen as that way immediately and looks great now.

 

[Tairy Greene]

My point is though there needs to be perspective. Mackinnon got every penny he was worth at the time. Now the narrative becomes he took a massive discount. Even Mackinnon himself and the media claimed that.

Rielly is a good deal. It's just it wasn't seen as that way immediately and looks great now.

Oh I get it. People think Matthew's could have been signed for that price when he was coming off 40 goal seasons. It gets annoying.

 

[X66]

Guys like MacKinnon couldn't even hold Matthews' jock-strap at the same age, that's why their contracts are the way they are.

Eichel is another example, his career was nothing like Matthews' when he signed his 10 million contract.

 

[Dreakmur]

Nylander was on a 42 goal pace once Keefe became coach and gave him proper PP and overall TOI...

And BTW, his contract with a 31 goal season in 70 games looks really good as it is. He's signed in his prime.

Would a guy with Nylander's stats and his age be seen as "Overpaid" in any other market? 6.9 all in his prime..

80+ point players want more than 6.9 through their primes. (Unless they sign for half the term Nylander did).

I think we should wait for Nylander to score more than a cereer high 61 point before we call him an 80+ point player.

 

[KyleDubasBoyGeniua]

I think we should wait for Nylander to score more than a cereer high 61 point before we call him an 80+ point player.

I didn't call him an 80+ point player. It was my response to the suggestion 80+ point guys make 6.9.

 

[hockeywiz542]

LEAFS NOTES: Kyle Dubas using his own grandfather clause in running the Maple Leafs | Toronto Sun

D IS FOR DEPTH

Dubas opted for defencemen when he had high draft picks in the Soo and until he picked high-upside winger Rodion Amirov last month, Toronto’s previous two first-round selections were Sandin and Liljegren.

“I know a lot is said about our forwards; how much they’re paid and their potential. But to me, the focus will always be finding the right group of defencemen and leaving it to the coaching staff to develop the right system so we’re playing as little (in the Leafs zone) as possible."

“The defence will always start the play. They have to stop the opposition and be tasked with creating a play to move the puck up the ice. If you don’t have that, you’ll really have a hard time competing. That was hammered into me by my grandfather back in the late ’80s."

“My first draft in the Soo, the third overall pick was Darnell Nurse. That set the tone for changing the culture. He is 25 now with a lot of room to grow (with the Edmonton Oilers).”

 

[hockeywiz542]

For the Maple Leafs, dressing seven blueliners is easy to defend. It’s what Stanley Cup champions do | The Star

On other topics:

• Dubas said he admired Morgan Rielly’s selflessness in giving up a spot on the first power-play unit to help struggling blueliner Tyson Barrie get his game going: “Morgan went to Sheldon and said he would have no problem if it was what was best for the team ... because if we were going to reach our potential, everyone felt it was important that Tyson play the way that everyone knew he was capable of playing. And I just thought that spoke so much to the character of Morgan Rielly and everything that he’s about.”

• The Leafs may break with a tradition started by former GM Lou Lamoriello and allow assistant coaches to speak to the media — specifically Paul MacLean and Dave Hakstol, who have experience as head coaches elsewhere.

• The GM sent a message about regular-season lulls that wind up hurting their playoff positioning: “The message that we’re trying to hammer home to our players throughout this off-season and getting ready for the regular season again is: If we want to set ourselves up (the best way) possible going into the playoffs, we cannot let our foot off the gas in the regular season. And if we have that mindset in the regular season, that’s certainly was going to be needed in the playoffs ..."

“I’m hopeful that the disappointments that we’ve faced will inspire the group further during the regular season to eliminate those (poor) stretches, But also I think more importantly, the guys are starting to realize here, they’re not 18, 19 anymore. They’re 22, 23, 24. In the case of (captain John) Tavares, now you’re 30. (T.J.) Brodie is 30. (Jake) Muzzin is 31. (Frederik) Anderson’s 31. And you don’t have forever.”

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

For the Maple Leafs, dressing seven blueliners is easy to defend. It’s what Stanley Cup champions do | The Star

On other topics:

• Dubas said he admired Morgan Rielly’s selflessness in giving up a spot on the first power-play unit to help struggling blueliner Tyson Barrie get his game going: “Morgan went to Sheldon and said he would have no problem if it was what was best for the team ... because if we were going to reach our potential, everyone felt it was important that Tyson play the way that everyone knew he was capable of playing. And I just thought that spoke so much to the character of Morgan Rielly and everything that he’s about.”

• The Leafs may break with a tradition started by former GM Lou Lamoriello and allow assistant coaches to speak to the media — specifically Paul MacLean and Dave Hakstol, who have experience as head coaches elsewhere.

• The GM sent a message about regular-season lulls that wind up hurting their playoff positioning: “The message that we’re trying to hammer home to our players throughout this off-season and getting ready for the regular season again is: If we want to set ourselves up (the best way) possible going into the playoffs, we cannot let our foot off the gas in the regular season. And if we have that mindset in the regular season, that’s certainly was going to be needed in the playoffs ..."

“I’m hopeful that the disappointments that we’ve faced will inspire the group further during the regular season to eliminate those (poor) stretches, But also I think more importantly, the guys are starting to realize here, they’re not 18, 19 anymore. They’re 22, 23, 24. In the case of (captain John) Tavares, now you’re 30. (T.J.) Brodie is 30. (Jake) Muzzin is 31. (Frederik) Anderson’s 31. And you don’t have forever.”

I still think Rielly should have been named captain.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I still think Rielly should have been named captain.

Me too.