Prospect Info: Kole Lind, Pt. II | Is not being taken, etcetera

[Sergei Shirokov]

Only watched the first video but that pass to Kampfer(?) was incredible. Last year was a learning year for him & once he started going he had injury trouble. (Atleast that's how it felt for me). This is a huge year for him & its good signs so far.

Maybe its not 'make or break', but its a prove-it year for Lind. I had a feeling he could turn it around & we'll see how he does from here. No doubt there's parts of his game that could make him an NHLer in some capacity.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

If I didn't like you guys, I would be a huge ******* and just obsess on Nic Hague in this thread. How the 6'6 defenseman and OHL defenseman goal scoring record holder just forced his way into the Vegas lineup at 19 years old despite their defense being stacked.

But I won't. We drafted Kole Lind instead because of Benning's god-tier scouting abilities. And that's wonderful.

When your picking in the 2nd round is even more of a crapshoot. Lind was probably a 'safer' pick as far as he's a winger & has the framework to be a player in some capacity. From what I remember Hague was an interesting case, bigger guys like that ('with skill') are generally longshots & from what I can remember there were some concerns about his defensive game.

Hague looks better now but the jury is still out on Lind. Considering injuries last year I'm curious to see his progression.

I will say that I liked Korzack alot, I hope VGK didn't nab one from us there like you bring up with Hague.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

When your picking in the 2nd round is even more of a crapshoot. Lind was probably a 'safer' pick as far as he's a winger & has the framework to be a player in some capacity. From what I remember Hague was an interesting case, bigger guys like that ('with skill') are generally longshots & from what I can remember there were some concerns about his defensive game.

Hague looks better now but the jury is still out on Lind. Considering injuries last year I'm curious to see his progression.

I will say that I liked Korzack alot, I hope VGK didn't nab one from us there like you bring up with Hague.

There was a bunch of good defensemen in that draft and the Canucks missed on all of them. Korczak is definitely up there too. Vegas' drafting is just disgusting, they get in one draft what the Canucks couldn't do in a decade.

I appreciate your optimism and your positivity for a Canucks prospect so I will refrain from saying anything else.

 

[F A N]

If I didn't like you guys, I would be a huge ******* and just obsess on Nic Hague in this thread. How the 6'6 defenseman and OHL defenseman goal scoring record holder just forced his way into the Vegas lineup at 19 years old despite their defense being stacked.

But I won't. We drafted Kole Lind instead because of Benning's god-tier scouting abilities. And that's wonderful.

Hague is 20 and Stacked defense? Who did Hague beat out? Jayson Megna's brother?

 

[EXTRAS]

Honest question:

Is there any precedence of a forward putting up .33 PPG in his first AHL season (at 20 YO) being anything of substance in the NHL?

Perhaps it's even common but I really don't know; I've never paid attention to non-NHL stats unless they were head turners (like EP's for example).

Burrows had 26 points in 72 games at 23yo in the AHL, and was in the echl the years before that.

Klim kostin had two pretty weak offensive seasons so far, and was one of the better players at blues camp this season. I'd bet he becomes at least a middle 6er in the nhl.

Yanni gourde had 14 points in 54 games in his 21/22 year old season.

dale weise

Alex nylander

I suspect there are quite a few guys that come out of college, have a meh first season,and then take off in their second AHL season.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Hague is 20 and Stacked defense? Who did Hague beat out? Jayson Megna's brother?

At the beginning of training camp he was towards the bottom of the depth chart as there was a handful of young guys ahead of him. Even the Vegas fans didn't realize how good he was going to be. Their other young guys like Coghlan, Bischoff, Schuldt. But of course when you have a hell on wheels 6'6 tank blue chip defenseman who can play all three zones, pretty good chance you'll go with him.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

There was a bunch of good defensemen in that draft and the Canucks missed on all of them. Korczak is definitely up there too. Vegas' drafting is just disgusting, they get in one draft what the Canucks couldn't do in a decade.

I appreciate your optimism and your positivity for a Canucks prospect so I will refrain from saying anything else.

Atleast we ended up taking Petey with the pick we offered them in trading down.

Drafting is so tough. Hague looks great now but you never know. VGK has only had 3 drafts. I remember when Jensen was on the brink of making our team. I remember when Hodgson was a great 3C & our next captain after Henrik. Its always wait & see.

I won't defend our drafting this decade overall that's for sure, not denying your point there. We'll see what happens with Lind/Hague, personally I wasn't sold on Hague at the time but hard to deny it looks like a W for VGK now. I still think Lind can be a decent player but we'll see how that goes, & other picks go.

Korzack was a personal 2nd round favourite of mine. But he was just drafted. Sjmilar prospect to Woo and from what I've seen of Hoglander I'm not sure I'd take a do-over. So they might win Hague/Lind but maybe we win Hoglander/Korzack. Battle of 2nd rounders? We'll see, still so early!

 

[UticaHockey]

I don't really disagree. But in the case of Lind, he did get a 6 game audition with the Comets after his last CHL season ended. While that doesn't mean it's enough to prepare Lind for pro hockey it should be enough that he isn't surprised at the level of play required.

What I was alluding to is that after the rookie season Lind and Gadjovich had, most Canucks AND Comets fans here seem to have written them off as NHL prospects. As you know, I do frequent the Comets thread and my interpretation of Comets fan opinion isn't that Lind and Gadjovich's struggles were part of the development process but that these two weren't good enough. I do not remember reading posts from Comets posters preaching patience and belief in those two developing into good AHL players. Do you disagree?

Even with the 6 games that Lind played at the end of the 2017/18 season he still looked overwhelmed last year. There may have been some health issues that prevented him from getting ready for his rookie season I don't remember but the bottom line is he was in over his head much of the season last year. I need to qualify this again that it is a sample size of one game but he looked confident, aggressive and assertive on Saturday and looked noting like the Kole Lind from last year.

Last year neither Lind or Gadjovich skated well enough to make an impact in the AHL and neither played as physical as they likely did back in juniors. I don't know if Gadjo will ever skate that well but it looks like he is now going to the net hard and doing the things you expect from a big power forward. Lind looks like he may have improved his skating over the summer but I need to see him play more than one game to know for sure but it was obvious that he is a more confident hockey player right now.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Atleast we ended up taking Petey with the pick we offered them in trading down.

Drafting is so tough. Hague looks great now but you never know. VGK has only had 3 drafts. I remember when Jensen was on the brink of making our team. I remember when Hodgson was a great 3C & our next captain after Henrik. Its always wait & see.

I won't defend our drafting this decade overall that's for sure, not denying your point there. We'll see what happens with Lind/Hague, personally I wasn't sold on Hague at the time but hard to deny it looks like a W for VGK now. I still think Lind can be a decent player but we'll see how that goes, & other picks go.

Korzack was a personal 2nd round favourite of mine. But he was just drafted. Sjmilar prospect to Woo and from what I've seen of Hoglander I'm not sure I'd take a do-over. So they might win Hague/Lind but maybe we win Hoglander/Korzack. Battle of 2nd rounders? We'll see, still so early!

Totally, I'm a big fan of Hoglander. I like that pick a lot and I think he's going to be a good one. No complaints there.

 

[DFAC]

I really wanted Comtois with that second round pick so what do I know. He has the skill and swagger that we haven’t had since.... Kesler?

How he dropped to 50th is beyond me

 

[4Twenty]

dale weise

That's probably one of the best comparable for what to hope for that I've seen.

Good on Kole for coming in ready....not sure he projects as anything better than Weise, but that's fine for organizational depth. Hopefully he can take a big step this year.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Guys who are top-6 NHL forwards never touch the AHL or destroy it when they’re there. Every grinder in the NHL was a scoring-line AHLer.

This is false. Josh Anderson scored 17 points in 52 games in his first AHL season. Phillip Danault had two assists in 12 games in two cups of coffee at the AHL level then scored 26 and 38 points in two full seasons there. Yanni Gourde scored 14 points in 54 games in his first AHL season. Adam Erne, 29 points in 59 games. Ondrej Palat, 30 points in 61 games. Chris Wagner had 21 and 28 points in two full AHL seasons. Evan Rodrigues had 30 points in 72 games at 22 in his first AHL season. Zigmus Girgensons had 17 points in 61 games. Jean-Gabriel Pageau, 29 points in 69 games. Luke Glendening played his first AHL season at 23 and had 26 points in 56 games. Tyler Bertuzzi had 30 in 71 games. Mike Hoffman had 25 points in 71 games. Evgeny Dadonov had 40 points in 71 AHL games at 20, then 16 in 24, then 9 in 20, then 3 goals and 19 points in 35 games. Other than Anderson that's just guys from one division, and largely overlooks many players that were in inferior leagues at similar developmental stages due to poor performance or accidents of geography/nationality. On the Canucks, who most of us presumably follow closely, Antoine Roussel, an excellent 3rd liner, had 8, 9, and 19 points in his 3 AHL seasons. Jake Virtanen had 19 points in his only full AHL season.

 

[MS]

This is false. Josh Anderson scored 17 points in 52 games in his first AHL season. Phillip Danault had two assists in 12 games in two cups of coffee at the AHL level then scored 26 and 38 points in two full seasons there. Yanni Gourde scored 14 points in 54 games in his first AHL season. Adam Erne, 29 points in 59 games. Ondrej Palat, 30 points in 61 games. Chris Wagner had 21 and 28 points in two full AHL seasons. Evan Rodrigues had 30 points in 72 games at 22 in his first AHL season. Zigmus Girgensons had 17 points in 61 games. Jean-Gabriel Pageau, 29 points in 69 games. Luke Glendening played his first AHL season at 23 and had 26 points in 56 games. Tyler Bertuzzi had 30 in 71 games. Mike Hoffman had 25 points in 71 games. Evgeny Dadonov had 40 points in 71 AHL games at 20, then 16 in 24, then 9 in 20, then 3 goals and 19 points in 35 games. Other than Anderson that's just guys from one division, and largely overlooks many players that were in inferior leagues at similar developmental stages due to poor performance or accidents of geography/nationality. On the Canucks, who most of us presumably follow closely, Antoine Roussel, an excellent 3rd liner, had 8, 9, and 19 points in his 3 AHL seasons. Jake Virtanen had 19 points in his only full AHL season.

On what planet are most of those guys top-6 forwards? Most of that list has never scored more than 30 points in a season.

Yes, there are a couple unicorns like Danault and Gourde who managed to figure something out in their mid-20s. But for every guy like this, there are 200 with similar resumes who didn't.

 

[Carnal]

On what planet are most of those guys top-6 forwards? Most of that list has never scored more than 30 points in a season.

Yes, there are a couple unicorns like Danault and Gourde who managed to figure something out in their mid-20s. But for every guy like this, there are 200 with similar resumes who didn't.

"So you're saying theres a chance!"

 

[bandwagonesque]

On what planet are most of those guys top-6 forwards? Most of that list has never scored more than 30 points in a season.

Yes, there are a couple unicorns like Danault and Gourde who managed to figure something out in their mid-20s. But for every guy like this, there are 200 with similar resumes who didn't.

Almost nothing here has anything to do with what you actually said. Leaving aside the top-6 forwards, and you concede there are several in one division, you said all NHL grinders are scorers in the AHL. There are two that obviously don't fit this description on your own team. Three if you count Brandon Sutter, who scored 2 points in 7 games in his first stint then 7 in 22.

Edit: actually 4 including Beagle, who began his AHL career at 21 and scored 37 points in 64 games, 9 in 47, 35 in 66 and finally 14 points in 34 games.

 

[MS]

Almost nothing here has anything to do with what you actually said. Leaving aside the top-6 forwards, and you concede there are several in one division, you said all NHL grinders are scorers in the AHL. There are two that obviously don't fit this description on your own team. Three if you count Brandon Sutter, who scored 2 points in 7 games in his first stint then 7 in 22.

Edit: actually 4 including Beagle, who began his AHL career at 21 and scored 37 points in 64 games, 9 in 47, 35 in 66 and finally 14 points in 34 games.

What grinders have you listed who weren't scoring-line players in the AHL? Beagle scored at nearly a 50-point pace in the AHL as a rookie pro. Brandon Sutter scored at over 0.5 points/game as a teenager.

 

[bandwagonesque]

What grinders have you listed who weren't scoring-line players in the AHL? Beagle scored at nearly a 50-point pace in the AHL as a rookie pro. Brandon Sutter scored at over 0.5 points/game as a teenager.

I give up. You're obviously way smarter than this.

 

[MS]

I give up. You're obviously way smarter than this.

I said that basically all scoring-line players blow through the AHL or never even touch it and all grinders were top-6 AHL guys at some point.

You gave a list which contained a couple unicorn top-6 guys and a bunch of grinders who were good AHL scorers ... which doesn't go against anything I said.

Beagle and Schaller were 2nd line AHL types and Sutter was an AHL 2nd liner as a teenager.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I said that basically all scoring-line players blow through the AHL or never even touch it and all grinders were top-6 AHL guys at some point.

You gave a list which contained a couple unicorn top-6 guys and a bunch of grinders who were good AHL scorers ... which doesn't go against anything I said.

Beagle and Schaller were 2nd line AHL types and Sutter was an AHL 2nd liner as a teenager.

You can fashion strained exceptions for them. Roussel never scored 20 points in three seasons there. Virtanen didn't score 20 points there. You follow the team and know this as well as I do.

 

[4Twenty]

I said that basically all scoring-line players blow through the AHL or never even touch it and all grinders were top-6 AHL guys at some point.

You gave a list which contained a couple unicorn top-6 guys and a bunch of grinders who were good AHL scorers ... which doesn't go against anything I said.

Beagle and Schaller were 2nd line AHL types and Sutter was an AHL 2nd liner as a teenager.

king of semantics is just mad you didn't "generally speaking". That poster just looks for little things to glob onto like that.

He's proving the point listing Sutter too....the guy played 22 AHL games at 19 because the Canes didn't want to send him back to the WHL and were shuttling up and down and in and out of the NHL lineup that season.

 

[bh53]

You can fashion strained exceptions for them. Roussel never scored 20 points in three seasons there. Virtanen didn't score 20 points there. You follow the team and know this as well as I do.

I don't get it. MS says Lind projects as a bottom 6 winger so you compare him with 2 bottom 6 wingers to prove that Lind will become something other than a bottom 6 winger?

 

[bandwagonesque]

I don't get it. MS says Lind projects as a bottom 6 winger so you compare him with 2 bottom 6 wingers to prove that Lind will become something other than a bottom 6 winger?

No, I'm disputing two false contentions -- that all top 6 forwards either skip the AHL entirely or dominate it, and that all grinders are scorers at the NHL level. Neither objection, particularly the second, constitutes semantics or only involves an insignificant proportion of the players in question. Both MS and 420Canuck are well aware of this.

 

[Hoghandler]

A few months ago I said his upside was Nic Dowd. His upside is still Nic Dowd.

His skating simply isn’t good enough to project him as an NHL regular in any role.

You said he didn't project in any role after his last game last season. After 1 game this season you're saying he could develop into a bottom 6 winger. As I said in the summer, you need to be careful making bold claims about 20 year old players because things can change so quickly.

If Lind does make the NHL, it's more statistically probable it's in a bottom 6 role than a top 6 one, but that rings true for every prospect, save the real high end blue-chip talent, typically found in the top 10 of the draft. But that doesn't mean Nic Dowd is his ceiling, his ceiling is unquestionably higher.

What PPG does Lind need to put up this season for you to see some top 6 upside?

 

[MS]

You said he didn't project in any role after his last game last season. After 1 game this season you're saying he could develop into a bottom 6 winger. As I said in the summer, you need to be careful making bold claims about 20 year old players because things can change so quickly.

If Lind does make the NHL, it's more statistically probable it's in a bottom 6 role than a top 6 one, but that rings true for every prospect, save the real high end blue-chip talent, typically found in the top 10 of the draft. But that doesn't mean Nic Dowd is his ceiling, his ceiling is unquestionably higher.

What PPG does Lind need to put up this season for you to see some top 6 upside?

A couple weeks later I said he projected as a winger version of Nic Dowd. So I might have been inconsistent in two posts during the summer, but I didn't flip-flop based on one game.

If Lind puts up well over a point/game in the AHL this year, I'll admit that this small, slow, muffin-shooting winger might have top-6 upside. If he scores like 40 or 50 points, nope. All that does is make it more likely that he'll hit his upside as bottom-6 winger depth.

I've been making 'bold claims' about 20 year old players here for a very long time and they only time I've been proven wrong on a Canuck pick I was negative on was Kevin Connauton, to an extent. And I've had about 50 of these discussions over the years. So at this point I really don't feel the need to be careful, and things don't really change that quickly. A solid AHL season doesn't change Lind's upside, despite what the casuals might think.

 

[Melvin]

A couple weeks later I said he projected as a winger version of Nic Dowd. So I might have been inconsistent in two posts during the summer, but I didn't flip-flop based on one game.

If Lind puts up well over a point/game in the AHL this year, I'll admit that this small, slow, muffin-shooting winger might have top-6 upside. If he scores like 40 or 50 points, nope. All that does is make it more likely that he'll hit his upside as bottom-6 winger depth.

I've been making 'bold claims' about 20 year old players here for a very long time and they only time I've been proven wrong on a Canuck pick I was negative on was Kevin Connauton, to an extent. And I've had about 50 of these discussions over the years. So at this point I really don't feel the need to be careful, and things don't really change that quickly. A solid AHL season doesn't change Lind's upside, despite what the casuals might think.

It's "funny" that this literally needs to be explained every season like some people just get the Men In Black memory wipe during the summer. Whether it's Shinkaruk, Jensen, Cassels, Virtanen, Lind, etc, if he doesn't shred the AHL pretty much immediately he's probably not going to make it as anything but a grinder.