Prospect Info: Kole Lind, Pt. II | Is not being taken, etcetera

[cc]

I went back and watched that 1st game where Lind stood out. He does look a lot more confident with the puck. There was a notable pass where he quickly stretched passed it up to the center for a breakaway that was stopped by the goalie. I don't want to make predictions on where he projects to be but he looked like a future NHLer against Binghamton who, despite being a bad team, has given this team trouble in the past especially in their own barn. However, it's only been one game so I don't think we can make too much of it. If he can keep this up, I don't see why he can't develop into a prominent NHL player. I don't expect much but I'm hopeful.

 

[Scorvat]

if you don't like Kole lind, that's totally fine, please unfollow this thread. I just want to hear his progression moving foward. Don't care who drafted him, want to hear if he had a good game or not. Don't give a rats ass if people think he's a write off.

How do know people who are discussing Lind's upside don't like him?

Also this is a discussion thread about everything Lind related not a cheerleader thread, so yes you can discuss who drafted him, the players drafted around him or even the apparent blasphemous talk of his potential upside.

If you don't like the "negativity" put those who are negative on the ignore list. Pretty simple

 

[ChilliBilly]

Well just read the last 3 pages of this thread. Not one useful informational comment. Just repeated arguments about how to do projections. Sigh. He apparently had 1 good game. Lets revisit this crap when he has 10 games in.

 

[Hoghandler]

I didn't agree I was wrong about anything.

Lind has no pro upside the way his skating his tracking. If he can make significant improvements there, he might be able to stick is a checking line winger.

Lind is small and weak on the puck. Like, Linden Vey is 6'0 190 but he's a tiny player who played tiny. 185 lbs. for Lind is a small player in today's game.

Uh, isn’t a checking line winger a professional hockey player? How can you have zero NHL upside, while also having checking line winger upside? Didn’t you already admit you changed your opinion of him having zero NHL upside, to that of a bottom 6 winger?

Lind and Vey have completely different frames. Vey is a small guy naturally - Lind is thin, but with a wider, more projectable frame. It’s pretty standard for an 18-19 year old, 6’1 player to weigh 185-190 lbs. He projects as a 195-200+ lbs guy once he fills out. Size and strength certainly won’t be a weakness for Lind once he physically matures.

 

[MS]

Uh, isn’t a checking line winger a professional hockey player? How can you have zero NHL upside, while also having checking line winger upside? Didn’t you already admit you changed your opinion of him having zero NHL upside, to that of a bottom 6 winger?

Lind and Vey have completely different frames. Vey is a small guy naturally - Lind is thin, but with a wider, more projectable frame. It’s pretty standard for an 18-19 year old, 6’1 player to weigh 185-190 lbs. He projects as a 195-200+ lbs guy once he fills out. Size and strength certainly won’t be a weakness for Lind once he physically matures.

I'd been pretty consistent from the end of the Utica season last year that he might have a chance of being a depth checking winger but made one post in the middle of that which wasn't consistent. I haven't changed my mind on anything. If he has a good AHL season this year, the odds he can translate as an NHL checking winger will go from 'slight' to 'decent'.

Lind does not have a wide frame, and is weak as hell on the puck. I have absolutely no idea what you're seeing here. And he isn't 18-19. He turns 21 next week.

 

[Hoghandler]

I'd been pretty consistent from the end of the Utica season last year that he might have a chance of being a depth checking winger but made one post in the middle of that which wasn't consistent. I haven't changed my mind on anything.

Lind does not have a wide frame, and is weak as hell on the puck. I have absolutely no idea what you're seeing here. And he isn't 18-19. He turns 21 next week.

Ok, we will chalk it up as a lapse in judgement, not call it wrong.

When was the 185lbs cited from? Has it been updated in the last year or two? Seem to recall that was the number when he was 19...

You haven’t noticed he’s already looked harder on pucks this season? Something to watch for. He said he’s put on size and strength this off-season.

 

[MS]

Ok, we will chalk it up as a lapse in judgement, not call it wrong.

When was the 185lbs cited from? Has it been updated in the last year or two? Seem to recall that was the number when he was 19...

You haven’t noticed he’s already looked harder on pucks this season? Something to watch for. He said he’s put on size and strength this off-season.

He looks a bit stronger than last year, when a light breeze would have knocked him off the puck and he was just constantly falling down. But he's still reedy and weak on the puck.

 

[xtra]

Ok, we will chalk it up as a lapse in judgement, not call it wrong.

When was the 185lbs cited from? Has it been updated in the last year or two? Seem to recall that was the number when he was 19...

You haven’t noticed he’s already looked harder on pucks this season? Something to watch for. He said he’s put on size and strength this off-season.

Your putting a lot of weight into one game. His body of work so far has shown he won’t amount to much; ONE game doesn’t really change that. If after the season he has a ppg and shown an improved skating stride then we can reasses him but for now at best with a correction in his skating he might be a bottom
6 checking winger.


Just like in the canucks game day threads you have said 2 games doesn’t mean much as the team looks like crap. One game from Lind doesn’t mean much.

 

[bandwagonesque]

How do know people who are discussing Lind's upside don't like him?

Because they're using any argument at hand, including arguments they clearly know are false and won't defend, to support the idea that's it will be nearly impossible for him to make the NHL. It's ideological/psychological expediency rather than an actual dislike of Lind at work -- the characteristics of the player are more or less incidental.

 

[Blue and Green]

Last winter his ceiling was supposedly Cam Darcy. Generally best to wait a while with useful prospects and let time tell the tale. None of us has a crystal ball.

No doubt in my mind from the Victoria game and the first Utica game that he has taken a clear step forward during the offseason. He made a couple of plays along the boards on Saturday that he almost certainly wouldn't have made last season because he wasn't strong enough. That was the thing that I didn't anticipate when he went from WHL to AHL; didn't realize just how easily he would be pushed around and knocked over.

 

[MS]

Because they're using any argument at hand, including arguments they clearly know are false and won't defend, to support the idea that's it will be nearly impossible for him to make the NHL. It's ideological/psychological expediency rather than an actual dislike of Lind at work -- the characteristics of the player are more or less incidental.

Again, I've had this debate about low-producing prospects probably 50 times over the years and it turns out the same way every time.

Smallish guys who can't skate and don't produce quickly in the AHL generally have an incredibly predictable outcome.

 

[Hoghandler]

He looks a bit stronger than last year, when a light breeze would have knocked him off the puck and he was just constantly falling down. But he's still reedy and weak on the puck.

not uncommon for a draft +2 kid to get physically outmatched jumping into the A. I thought Gadjovich looked weak as well, and that kid was built like an absolute tank at 18 years of age.

Time should sort this issue out, for both guys. Likely start to see that evident this season.

 

[MS]

not uncommon for a draft +2 kid to get physically outmatched jumping into the A. I thought Gadjovich looked weak as well, and that kid was built like an absolute tank at 18 years of age.

Time should sort this issue out, for both guys. Likely start to see that evident this season.

It's not uncommon, no. But the guys it commonly happens to almost never amount to anything.

* cue incoming list of the couple unicorns who did make it out of the 100s of players who flopped as rookie pros.

 

[M2Beezy]

Well just read the last 3 pages of this thread. Not one useful informational comment. Just repeated arguments about how to do projections. Sigh. He apparently had 1 good game. Lets revisit this crap when he has 10 games in.

Chilli Billy with the most reasonable post in this thread. Its like it needs to be locked in the days between games so we dont have to skip thru hundreds of nonsense posts attacking/defending him based off ONE game

 

[Hoghandler]

It's not uncommon, no. But the guys it commonly happens to almost never amount to anything.

The guys it most commonly happens to are the players that step into the AHL in their draft +1 or 2 season. Players that get that extra year of growth typically fare better, physically speaking. Lind should have been sent back to Junior - this should be his rookie pro season. If he doesn’t look physically over matched this year, it bodes well for his projection moving up levels. Time will tell on that front, but so far, so good.

Would be curious to see an updated number on his size. He could be walking around at 195lbs right now...

 

[MS]

The guys it most commonly happens to are the players that step into the AHL in their draft +1 or 2 season. Players that get that extra year of growth typically fare better, physically speaking. Lind should have been sent back to Junior - this should be his rookie pro season. If he doesn’t look physically over matched this year, it bodes well for his projection moving up levels. Time will tell on that front, but so far, so good.

Would be curious to see an updated number on his size. He could be walking around at 195lbs right now...

Examples who struggled in the AHL in their draft+2 and then turned out great?

Like, let's look at the players taken between picks 20 and 50 in 2017 who were playing pro hockey in their draft+2 season :

20. Robert Thomas - NHL regular in his draft+2 season.
21. Filip Chytil - 31 points in 46 AHL games in his draft+1, NHL regular in draft+2.
22. Kailer Yamamot0 - 18 points in 27 games in his draft +2. Played 26 NHL games in first two seasons after being drafted.
24. Kristian Vesalainen - 13 points in 22 games in the AHL in his draft+2 (while basically a year younger than Lind) plus 5 NHL games.
25. Ryan Poehling - played in NCAA in draft+2, but scored a hat trick in his NHL debut.
29. Henri Jokiharju - 17 points in 30 games in the AHL, played half the season in the NHL.
30. Eeli Tolvanen - 35 points in 58 games in the AHL in his draft+2 after shredding KHL in his draft+1.
31. Klim Kostin - 24 points in AHL in his draft+2.
34. Nic Hague - 32 points in the AHL as a rookie defender, in NHL in draft+3.
45. Alex Texier - 7 points in 7 AHL games, recalled for NHL playoffs.
50. Max Comtois - 7 points in 10 NHL games.

Plus Formenton and Anderson-Dolan who made NHL teams to start the season before going back to junior.

So basically, out of 11 guys in his draft range playing pro hockey, Lind did the worst by a wide margin and only one other guy (Kostin) really struggled. Let's not try and pretend his season was normal for a pick in his range playing pro hockey, no matter whether it was draft+2 or draft+3.

 

[4Twenty]

The idea that all d+1 and d+2 players being equal is strange. Lind and Gadjovich were some of the oldest players drafted. They're draft seasons are almost more comparable to their contemporaries D-1. Most people don't get that, and it's why you saw lots of Lind is outperforming top 6 pick, Cody Glass during that season, when anyone with any sense knew Glass and Lind are in different postal codes, projection wise.

I know over the years in draft threads or draft discussions on the internet, generally those older guys are seen as being ahead developmentally than their peers. That's why I find the d+ whatever stuff in here a red herring, makes more sense to me to use the players age.

Hunter Shinkaruk was a late birthday just like Lind and was coming off of a serious injury in his draft plus two and I don't recall the same excuses for him and he was even less physically mature than Lind.

 

[Hoghandler]

So basically, out of 11 guys in his draft range playing pro hockey, Lind did the worst by a wide margin and only one other guy (Kostin) really struggled. Let's not try and pretend his season was normal for a pick in his range playing pro hockey, no matter whether it was draft+2 or draft+3.

Every guy on your list drafted ahead of Lind is a better prospect, that was ranked higher pre-draft I believe. They ARE better players, and performed as such. Look how few were taken in the 2nd rd and beyond. 2 of the 3 that had success are huge, physical specimens in Hague and Comtois.

As I said in the summer, injuries factor into my assessment here too. Lind suffered a couple setbacks, which he couldn't overcome. Had he been completely healthy and had the season he just had, it would have been a bigger red flag for me. IMO he looked better when he was healthy late in the season and that's why I wanted to give him another look before writing him off.

I agree that if he put up 40-50 points over a full season, or didn't make massive strides this season, you could all but write off any hope of him being a scorer at the NHL level. This is going to be Lind's make or break season. If he puts up a PPG for example, it puts him right back on the map as a top prospect, as you would be looking at 3 of 4 seasons where his statistical profile lined up with that of a potential top 6 forward. With the one outlier season, where injuries could help explain the poor performance.

IMO this summer was too soon to close the book on Lind. We will probably know by Halloween if there is something there or not.

 

[krutovsdonut]

it's been one game guys.

 

[Krnuckfan]

Examples who struggled in the AHL in their draft+2 and then turned out great?

Like, let's look at the players taken between picks 20 and 50 in 2017 who were playing pro hockey in their draft+2 season :

20. Robert Thomas - NHL regular in his draft+2 season.
21. Filip Chytil - 31 points in 46 AHL games in his draft+1, NHL regular in draft+2.
22. Kailer Yamamot0 - 18 points in 27 games in his draft +2. Played 26 NHL games in first two seasons after being drafted.
24. Kristian Vesalainen - 13 points in 22 games in the AHL in his draft+2 (while basically a year younger than Lind) plus 5 NHL games.
25. Ryan Poehling - played in NCAA in draft+2, but scored a hat trick in his NHL debut.
29. Henri Jokiharju - 17 points in 30 games in the AHL, played half the season in the NHL.
30. Eeli Tolvanen - 35 points in 58 games in the AHL in his draft+2 after shredding KHL in his draft+1.
31. Klim Kostin - 24 points in AHL in his draft+2.
34. Nic Hague - 32 points in the AHL as a rookie defender, in NHL in draft+3.
45. Alex Texier - 7 points in 7 AHL games, recalled for NHL playoffs.
50. Max Comtois - 7 points in 10 NHL games.

Plus Formenton and Anderson-Dolan who made NHL teams to start the season before going back to junior.

So basically, out of 11 guys in his draft range playing pro hockey, Lind did the worst by a wide margin and only one other guy (Kostin) really struggled. Let's not try and pretend his season was normal for a pick in his range playing pro hockey, no matter whether it was draft+2 or draft+3.

Exactly. The average second rounder is a bust. If he was going to be a top 6 forward he should have performed a lot better in the AHL despite being one of the younger players.

 

[EXTRAS]

First the juolevi thread, then the lind thread. The fans of the canucks (who probably don't watch the prospects) that sit in these threads and repeat stats about chances of guys ever making the NHL due to past prospects are really mind numbing. None of the other teams fans are this repetitively caustic. Give it a break.

 

[Hoghandler]

First the juolevi thread, then the lind thread. The fans of the canucks (who probably don't watch the prospects) that sit in these threads and repeat stats about chances of guys ever making the NHL due to past prospects are really mind numbing. None of the other teams fans are this repetitively caustic. Give it a break.

Haha. Point taken. Will try to only report on what I see from Lind. For the record, I do subscribe to Utica hockey!

 

[strattonius]

First the juolevi thread, then the lind thread. The fans of the canucks (who probably don't watch the prospects) that sit in these threads and repeat stats about chances of guys ever making the NHL due to past prospects are really mind numbing. None of the other teams fans are this repetitively caustic. Give it a break.

Agreed.

Prepare to be told you're a cheerleader or a Benning bro now.

 

[lawrence]

First the juolevi thread, then the lind thread. The fans of the canucks (who probably don't watch the prospects) that sit in these threads and repeat stats about chances of guys ever making the NHL due to past prospects are really mind numbing. None of the other teams fans are this repetitively caustic. Give it a break.

I was thinking exactly the same when I posted this Prospect Info: - Kole Lind, Pt. II | Is not being taken, etcetera .

lets be honest, lind or supporter or not, (not sure why you would not support him ) the Canucks have not had a good history of turning 2nd rounders into NHL regulars, I'm sure most of us are aware of it, but I just want to see and follow his progression like a normal fan base does. He had a solid Pre season, were he had multiple points and he continued that. apparently he had a good game.

 

[lawrence]

it's been one game guys.

it's actually normal for it's fan base to comment on their prospects after 1 game.