You keep banging the drum for rebuild, not retool, just curious, why do you think that would be successful in 5-6 years, vs a retool in say 2-3 years? I ask because look at how long the teams that have been "rebuilding" have been rebuilding, Vancouver, Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, Carolina, out of the teams that rebuilt, and had success Toronto and Winnipeg would be the only ones that come to mind, and it took YEARS for them to be shitty, to do that kind of a rebuild, not 5-6, more like 10-12 etc.
Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season - The Luc and Rob ****show Part 2
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You keep banging the drum for rebuild, not retool, just curious, why do you think that would be successful in 5-6 years, vs a retool in say 2-3 years? I ask because look at how long the teams that have been "rebuilding" have been rebuilding, Vancouver, Buffalo, Edmonton, Florida, Carolina, out of the teams that rebuilt, and had success Toronto and Winnipeg would be the only ones that come to mind, and it took YEARS for them to be shitty, to do that kind of a rebuild, not 5-6, more like 10-12 etc.
exactly. I think they should go the re-tool and if it doesn't work then the team probably is not far off that 5-6 year re-build schedule. If a re-tool does not work it means the team sucked and is still picking high draft picks which is what most want with a re-build.
Not only that, but K17 goes out of his way to denigrate Blake and Luc, yet, those two would be in charge of the rebuild that he wants....I dunno, the Kings spent 40 years being irrelevant, seems like that's what some people want again just to be proven "right"
I just agree that there is nor guarantee a rebuild will bring the kings back to contenders, as you pointed out look how many teams are stuck in rebuild status for what seems like a decade. I agree you need good minds at the helm and I do not think we have seen enough of the new kings management to rule if they are the right people or not, I know I have my concerns but we will see.
If reconstructing this team was a highway I see rebuild as being like 100Km long and re-toll like 50. If you try re-tooling and it fails and then you realize a full rebuild is required you are not 100km away but more like 60km, you would already be somewhat down the path. So re-tool is worth a shot for me. Sorry for all the KMs instead of Miles.
KINGS17
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When you have a roster that is one of, if not the highest paid in the NHL, the results for the team is what matter most. Kopitar and Carter are not helping the Kings go deep into the playoffs, and that is what they are being paid to accomplish.
KINGS17
Smartest in the Room
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Anyone with even mildly competent reading comprehension skills knows I would have never hired Robitaille and Blake in the first place. Fire them tomorrow. I think it would be a step in the right direction.
We are supposed to watch this crap roster because Luc and Rob can't be trusted to rebuild it? I have already given you the solution to that problem.
If you want to have a look at a team that refused to rebuild and the guaranteed results of that approach, look no further than the Detroit Red Wings.
Herby
Now I can die in peace
kovacro
Uvijek Vjerni
I'm not sure how Toronto has had anymore success than teams like Carolina and Florida over the last several years since their "rebuilds". The Leafs have yet to win a playoff round and they still have a few obvious needs. Suppose it comes down to what one would define as success.
Agree regarding the Jets, they made the Conference Final last season with core pieces coming through drafts within the last 5-6 years.
I think the Oilers may be "rebuilding" until the end of time.
Good point. Only counter to it I can think of is the Penquins. After their 2009 cup they were contenders for years and then they weren't. There were calls to re-build and trade a key guy like Malkin. Instead they re-tool and make it back to contenders. Hind site 20/20 seems stupid that many thought a rebuild was needed, but there was a time. There are way more examples of teams that held on too long (calgary comes to mind too), but I am not saying the kings need to hang on while doing a re-tool.
Ziggy Stardust
Master Debater
The Kings are among the oldest teams in the NHL with an average age of 29. Not a single core player is under the age of 29, unless you want to include Toffoli and Kempe and their combined total of 12 goals and 28 points as core pieces.
I think we will start seeing a shift away from this next year. There will be more youth and speed in the lineup. Could be another painful year next year, but I am hopeful the team will be more entertaining and then challenge for the playoffs the year after.
AbsentMojo
F-ing get up and hunt! Cmon Todd!
This team doesnt have enough parts to do a partial rebuild - who is your core? DL started with not much (besides Brown and Kopitar and whiny and soon to be gone Camallari) and got the team to the cup in 5 years. He filled in the roster with spare parts for a couple of years. Then drafted well and traded for Stoll, Greene, JW, Richards, Carter. This guy had a vision and executed it.. He knew what parts he wanted for team identity/leadership and took risks on players w injury histories like JW that panned out really well. He got his ideas based on many years of scouting and previous GM experience. There is no way in hell Blake has any of this capability. So if you had a hypothetically good GM, Id say do a full rebuild... but with Blake and Luc in place, pray they dont do any damage. Then, hope AEG cleans house (except for Futa and Ranford) in the near future.
Peter James Bond II
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Exactly. DL built the team strong at center and strong on character. He already had DD and Quick. When he acquired Stoll, Richards and then Carter, the Kings were probably
strongest at center in the NHL...and when he added Williams and Mitchell, the Kings were perhaps strongest in character.
Carter was acquired 7 years ago (next month) and Kopitar is 7 years older than first Cup year. These 2 still command center #1 and #2 and Carter is about 55% of what he was
in 2012 and Kopitar probably 85%. Richards and Stoll were not replaced. Kopitar and Carter are BOTH slower than they were and that doesn't help, as the game is getting
quicker. The Kings are now WEAK at center and weak on character as well. DD and Quick are regressing some as well. DD makes a terrible play every 3 games or so and
used to rarely happen...think he's #1 in the NHL for turnovers...or thereabouts. Quick is injury prone more and more and turns 33 soon.
If all 4 of these were performing at their 2012 levels, the Kings would be in the playoff run. It cannot be expected that all 4 would be as good as they were 7 yrs ago.
It's just that the Kings have needed to add 1 to 3 pieces AS GOOD as these 4 were in 2012 and they have failed to add a single player of these 4 at their 2012 levels.
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KINGS17
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The Kings have no players even remotely in the same league as Crosby and Malkin. Both are generational players. The Kings likely have one in Drew Doughty, but he doesn't seem to have the same attitude as a Crosby or Malkin when it comes to sticking with it with the same franchise. Doughty has already said he doesn't want to be around for another rebuild, which I find odd since he wasn't really around for the last rebuild.
The dilemma is the length of the contracts. If Kopitar, Doughty, Brown, Quick, and Carter were all impending UFA's then the path forward would be clear...sell, sell, sell. But they aren't. So I honestly believe that Blake & Co are very conflicted on how to proceed. The only really good trade chip they have (realistically) is Muzzin and I don't think they'll trade him unless they get a ridiculous offer. Making things more difficult is that their prospect pool is decidedly mediocre and offers no immediate help through at least next season. Tough spot to be in and that's why LA is such an interesting team to comment on.
in between cups a lot of NHL and writers were questioning if Malking needed to be moved for better depth. LA has two maybe three generational players in Kopitar, Doughty and Quick.
Another example of a team not rebuilding when alot of people were calling for it is Washington. They got older with Oshie and were very much questioned.
AbsentMojo
F-ing get up and hunt! Cmon Todd!
Good points and Id argue that LA has the worst overall situation in the league considering the number of long term contracts dedicated to players in decline and quality of pipeline. Kovulchuk was the cherry on the cake - over 35 contract for 3 years at 6.5 or whatever it was.
KINGS17
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Sorry, I don't see Kopitar or Quick as generational. Quick may be close, but he isn't in the same class as Brodeur, Hasek, or Roy. I love Quick. He is as mentally tough as they come, but I don't think his talent level is quite as good as those I listed.
I also don't see Kopitar and Doughty as the type of "leaders" who will turn the Kings around.
Quick is the question mark for me, but Kopitar I think is a generational player.
I get crucified in Canada for saying this but Brodeur is over rated IMO. Alot of his numbers are so good because he either played in so many games (which is estimate to him) or because he played behind one of the best trap teams ever. When you think Dead Puck NHL the Devils should come to mind. Hasek to me is the best goalie of all time. Had he been a starter as early in his career as Brodeur he would have had better stats.
KingsFan7824
Registered User
Neither do I. The issue as I see it is the short and long term needs and wants of other teams, not the Kings. The Kings needs and wants are essentially irrelevant. It's a bunch of old guys with multiple years on their contracts. In a hard cap league, nobody is banging down the door for them. If they do, great. I'm not expecting that to happen though.
Those guys are generational talents specific to the Kings. It'll be a while before we see 3 guys on the team like that, at the same time. Quick pretty much came out of nowhere to steal the #1 job too. He was a random 3rd round pick, taken the year before Bernier. The chances of a #1C, #1D, and #1G like that are low. You probably have to suck in the right year to get a top pick. Have to get a little lucky. The picks can't be too far apart. The 3 years between Kopitar/Quick and Doughty are longer than most top combinations around the league. Throw in Brown, 2 years before 11 & 32, and that's probably why Lombardi started to accelerate things around 2011. All 3 of them were done their ELC by then. Whereas Chi and Pit won with at least a few of their stars still on that first contract. The Kings were always behind the 8-ball in that regard.
During the rebuild I thought LA finally had their goalie of the future when they drafted Bernier. I was so sure of it I ordered a Bernier Monarchs Jersey (I still wear today, nice to wear colour sometimes). Quick absolutely came out of no where. ECHL goalie to best goalie in franchise history, and maybe best American goalie of all time!
Herby
Now I can die in peace
To me, Hasek is the most underrated player the last 30 years (as long as I've been a fan). Those Buffalo teams would have finished near the bottom of the league without Hasek and he took them deep into the playoffs and very nearly the cup in 99. Plus the performance in the Olympics, that Canadian team with so many Hall of Fame players just had no answer for his greatness. We will probably never see another Hasek again, style wise.
kovacro
Uvijek Vjerni
Disagree regarding Kopitar. He isn't a generational player, not close for me.
Agree with your assessment Hasek v Brodeur. I also think you absolutely have to put Roy in the mix. He is better than Marty and it's really close between him and Hasek, I'd tend to lean Roy myself and I dislike the guy.
Broduer who would be in the pack that would include guys like Ken Dryden, Plante, Bernie Parent, Sawchuk, etc.
kingsboy11
Maestro
I hate how often the word generational has been thrown around. Absolutely hate it. That should only be reserved for Crosby/McDavid.
There is more than 1 way to win a cup in this league. For every success story of a rebuild with Chicago/LA, you have a Pens/Caps success story. Yes those 2 teams had some of the best players to play in the league, but almost everyone had written them off at some point this decade. I think the Kings are somewhere in between. The obviously insanely bad this year and likely to be bad again next year. I think if you ship off guys Like Carter, Toffoli, Martinez, Muzzin you can accumulate a lot of draft picks. Kopitar and Doughty are off the table due to their contracts. I think what this team needs in the near future is to get their young players playing in the NHL soon. Guys like Vilardi, Kupari and JAD I see starting to usher in the new generation. Those guys will need to be the guys to be the new depth players when Kopi and Brown start to drop off. In addition, the team cannot afford to miss on these high draft picks this year and next.
Also I always saw Kovalchuk as more of a stop gap than anything. It was a move where Bluc didn't give up future assets and still (in theory) compete for a cup. It was obviously a misfire, but it was only made because none of the young guys weren't ready to step in right away. I'm not going to get worked up over him with the cap going up and us dumping a couple contracts this deadline.
I bet Blake and Luc are hoping Sturm could be a gem who can work with young players. Kind of like Murray except for offense instead of defense.
There is more than 1 way to win a cup in this league. For every success story of a rebuild with Chicago/LA, you have a Pens/Caps success story. Yes those 2 teams had some of the best players to play in the league, but almost everyone had written them off at some point this decade. I think the Kings are somewhere in between. The obviously insanely bad this year and likely to be bad again next year. I think if you ship off guys Like Carter, Toffoli, Martinez, Muzzin you can accumulate a lot of draft picks. Kopitar and Doughty are off the table due to their contracts. I think what this team needs in the near future is to get their young players playing in the NHL soon. Guys like Vilardi, Kupari and JAD I see starting to usher in the new generation. Those guys will need to be the guys to be the new depth players when Kopi and Brown start to drop off. In addition, the team cannot afford to miss on these high draft picks this year and next.
Also I always saw Kovalchuk as more of a stop gap than anything. It was a move where Bluc didn't give up future assets and still (in theory) compete for a cup. It was obviously a misfire, but it was only made because none of the young guys weren't ready to step in right away. I'm not going to get worked up over him with the cap going up and us dumping a couple contracts this deadline.
I bet Blake and Luc are hoping Sturm could be a gem who can work with young players. Kind of like Murray except for offense instead of defense.
BigKing
Blake Out of Hell III: Back in to Hell
What exactly is a "retool" v. a "rebuild"?
Is the retool camp saying a retool involves holding 11/8/32 while the rebuild says move everyone?
Is the retool camp saying a retool involves holding 11/8/32 while the rebuild says move everyone?
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