Rumor: KINGS 2018-19 Season - The Luc and Rob ****show Part 2

[GoldenBearHockey]

Anyone with even mildly competent reading comprehension skills knows I would have never hired Robitaille and Blake in the first place. Fire them tomorrow. I think it would be a step in the right direction.

We are supposed to watch this crap roster because Luc and Rob can't be trusted to rebuild it? I have already given you the solution to that problem.

If you want to have a look at a team that refused to rebuild and the guaranteed results of that approach, look no further than the Detroit Red Wings.

The Detroit Redwings, same ones with Dylan Larkin, Anthony Mantha, Andreas Athaniasa, Tyler Bertuzzi, Dennis Choloski, Michael Rasmussin, Evgeni Svenchinkov, Filip Zadina, and Jared MacIssac?

You're kidding yourself if you think Detroit didn't rebuild....they still need a ways to go, some young D coming in, a future G, etc, but they are definitely rebuilding, and have been.

The issue with "rebuilding" is it's never guaranteed, you act like it's the solution to the problem and all it is, really, is the END to one problem, and the START of another.....

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

What exactly is a "retool" v. a "rebuild"?

Is the retool camp saying a retool involves holding 11/8/32 while the rebuild says move everyone?

I believe, for me anyways, a retool is keeping Kopitar, Doughty, Brown, Toffoli, Kempe, Muzzin, Forbort, and the "kids" I think the rebuild crowd wants everyone gone but realizes Kopitar and Doughty won't be traded etc.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The Detroit Redwings, same ones with Dylan Larkin, Anthony Mantha, Andreas Athaniasa, Tyler Bertuzzi, Dennis Choloski, Michael Rasmussin, Evgeni Svenchinkov, Filip Zadina, and Jared MacIssac?

You're kidding yourself if you think Detroit didn't rebuild....they still need a ways to go, some young D coming in, a future G, etc, but they are definitely rebuilding, and have been.

The issue with "rebuilding" is it's never guaranteed, you act like it's the solution to the problem and all it is, really, is the END to one problem, and the START of another.....

The bulk of that has happened in the last two years, though. I think K17 is right that they milked it for all they could because they rode Dastyuk and Zetterberg until the wheels fell off and they had nothing behind them but an also-declining Kronwall and a rookie Larkin.

I believe the idea is that you want to jump that step by trading Datsyuk/Zetterberg for assets instead of riding their decline into mid-1st picks and essentially 'wasted' years, as no one though Detroit would be competing in that time.

 

[YP44]

What exactly is a "retool" v. a "rebuild"?

Is the retool camp saying a retool involves holding 11/8/32 while the rebuild says move everyone?

For me the re-tool involves bringing in prospects instead of picks who will help LA sooner. It involves re-tooling around some of the players (11 and 8 for me). So I think you assessment of the difference is pretty spot on. I used to be in the keep Quick for the re-tool but now i am more open to him being moved if it is for the right price. Largely because of how Peterson has played this year.

 

[YP44]

The Detroit Redwings, same ones with Dylan Larkin, Anthony Mantha, Andreas Athaniasa, Tyler Bertuzzi, Dennis Choloski, Michael Rasmussin, Evgeni Svenchinkov, Filip Zadina, and Jared MacIssac?

You're kidding yourself if you think Detroit didn't rebuild....they still need a ways to go, some young D coming in, a future G, etc, but they are definitely rebuilding, and have been.

The issue with "rebuilding" is it's never guaranteed, you act like it's the solution to the problem and all it is, really, is the END to one problem, and the START of another.....

I think the point was they waited too long before rebuilding. I get why they did though.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Neither do I. The issue as I see it is the short and long term needs and wants of other teams, not the Kings. The Kings needs and wants are essentially irrelevant. It's a bunch of old guys with multiple years on their contracts. In a hard cap league, nobody is banging down the door for them. If they do, great. I'm not expecting that to happen though.

I'm certainly not expecting anything, but I think people are underestimating league context right now--the days of the Chicago-La-StL arms races are over, but SJ is still doing it (may be their last hurrah), TB, NSH, and now you have a new wave of up and comers for which some of our vets could play pivotal depth roles, like Winnipeg, Toronto, even possibly Edmonton or Calgary. There are a lot of teams with assets and some cap to burn as well as motivation and roster holes to fill.

Remember at one point we were that team plucking Regehr off Buffalo, Penner off Edmonton.

 

[KopitarFAN]

What exactly is a "retool" v. a "rebuild"?

Is the retool camp saying a retool involves holding 11/8/32 while the rebuild says move everyone?

To me, the difference is trying to get good again without being really bad, meaning striking gold with later round picks. It's really hard to do, boarding on impossible, because almost every really good team has a Top 5 pick on it. For example, Stamkos/Hedman, M. Tkachuk, Laine, Ovie, Matthews/Marner/JT/Rielly, you see where i'm going with this.

Obviously, many of these teams have done well in later rounds as well.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

The bulk of that has happened in the last two years, though. I think K17 is right that they milked it for all they could because they rode Dastyuk and Zetterberg until the wheels fell off and they had nothing behind them but an also-declining Kronwall and a rookie Larkin.

I believe the idea is that you want to jump that step by trading Datsyuk/Zetterberg for assets instead of riding their decline into mid-1st picks and essentially 'wasted' years, as no one though Detroit would be competing in that time.

They rode them, absoluetly, but the "rebuild" started in 2013 with Mantha, and Bertuzzi, they didn't tear it all down, they kept "competing" and riding the horses, but the bulk of their young guys, there now producing, started in 2013.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

To me, the difference is trying to get good again without being really bad, meaning striking gold with later round picks. It's really hard to do, boarding on impossible, because almost every really good team has a Top 5 pick on it. For example, Stamkos/Hedman, M. Tkachuk, Laine, Ovie, Matthews/Marner/JT/Rielly, you see where i'm going with this.

Obviously, many of these teams have done well in later rounds as well.

Agreed, so when you look at Detroit.....one can actually say they re-tooled rather than rebuilt, highest pick was #6OA this past draft......

 

[KINGS17]

I think the point was they waited too long before rebuilding. I get why they did though.

Yeah, Detroit did it because their fans couldn't let go of the past and were satisfied with a black hole team for years.

To say Detroit has successfully retooled is utter nonsense. This season they are 10-12 points out of a playoff spot, and 2 points from being DFL. The Red Wings haven't done anything. There is no direction with that franchise, and nothing suggests they will be much better any time soon.

They should be looking to move Nyquist, as he would generate a ton of interest. Of course he has a NTC, because GMs are stupid, and it's monkey see, monkey do in NHL front offices. Maybe they can move him since this is the last year of his deal, and he might like to play some playoff hockey.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Agreed, so when you look at Detroit.....one can actually say they re-tooled rather than rebuilt, highest pick was #6OA this past draft......

Right. What they did was remarkable, drafting Lidstrom ('89), Kozlov ('90), Holmstrom ('94), Datsyuk ('98) and Zetterberg ('99) outside of the 1st round.

 

[KINGS17]

Right. What they did was remarkable, drafting Lidstrom ('89), Kozlov ('90), Holmstrom ('94), Datsyuk ('98) and Zetterberg ('99) outside of the 1st round.

European scouting has come a long way. That will never happen again in today's NHL.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Right. What they did was remarkable, drafting Lidstrom ('89), Kozlov ('90), Holmstrom ('94), Datsyuk ('98) and Zetterberg ('99) outside of the 1st round.

Well yea, but I was talking recent lol

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Yeah, Detroit did it because their fans couldn't let go of the past and were satisfied with a black hole team for years.

To say Detroit has successfully retooled is utter nonsense. This season they are 10-12 points out of a playoff spot, and 2 points from being DFL. The Red Wings haven't done anything. There is no direction with that franchise, and nothing suggests they will be much better any time soon.

They should be looking to move Nyquist, as he would generate a ton of interest. Of course he has a NTC, because GMs are stupid, and it's monkey see, monkey do in NHL front offices. Maybe they can move him since this is the last year of his deal, and he might like to play some playoff hockey.

Who says they have successfuly done anything, OR that they are done doing it?? They are STILL doing it....more because they don't have Zetterberg,Datsyuk around anymore, if they had a Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, Muzzin, Martinez, to their young core, they would be in a much better spot....

 

[YP44]

Yeah, Detroit did it because their fans couldn't let go of the past and were satisfied with a black hole team for years.

To say Detroit has successfully retooled is utter nonsense. This season they are 10-12 points out of a playoff spot, and 2 points from being DFL. The Red Wings haven't done anything. There is no direction with that franchise, and nothing suggests they will be much better any time soon.

They should be looking to move Nyquist, as he would generate a ton of interest. Of course he has a NTC, because GMs are stupid, and it's monkey see, monkey do in NHL front offices. Maybe they can move him since this is the last year of his deal, and he might like to play some playoff hockey.

I think they held on because they were chasing extending a record streak of playoff appearances, and had an aging owner that would not live through a rebuild

 

[KingsFan7824]

I'm certainly not expecting anything, but I think people are underestimating league context right now--the days of the Chicago-La-StL arms races are over, but SJ is still doing it (may be their last hurrah), TB, NSH, and now you have a new wave of up and comers for which some of our vets could play pivotal depth roles, like Winnipeg, Toronto, even possibly Edmonton or Calgary. There are a lot of teams with assets and some cap to burn as well as motivation and roster holes to fill.

Remember at one point we were that team plucking Regehr off Buffalo, Penner off Edmonton.

True. Regehr was a UFA though, and signed while the Kings were going to the 3rd round in 2013. At a lower cap hit than his previous deal. Penner had the 1 year left after 2011, but then had 9g in 84 games before the 2012 playoffs, when he finally did something. He had 21g and 39pts in 62 games for the Oilers in 10-11. I think we were all ready to watch him walk until he became the pancake guy.

All of that if a little different than what the Kings have available right now.

 

[KINGS17]

I think they held on because they were chasing extending a record streak of playoff appearances, and had an aging owner that would not live through a rebuild

I have a ton of respect for Ilitch, but that wasn't a good decision for the franchise.

 

[YP44]

I'm certainly not expecting anything, but I think people are underestimating league context right now--the days of the Chicago-La-StL arms races are over, but SJ is still doing it (may be their last hurrah), TB, NSH, and now you have a new wave of up and comers for which some of our vets could play pivotal depth roles, like Winnipeg, Toronto, even possibly Edmonton or Calgary. There are a lot of teams with assets and some cap to burn as well as motivation and roster holes to fill.

Remember at one point we were that team plucking Regehr off Buffalo, Penner off Edmonton.

biggest guy brought in for me during those days...Willie Mitchell. He groomed Drew and was a rock on D.

 

[BigKing]

Thanks for those that clarified.

Golden...where is the path to becoming a contender while holding basically all of the current assets that could return at least something of value, even if that value is a spot for a prospect or dropping further in the standings?

The Kings have drafted one guy with an upper-echelon skill set since Schenn (Top prospect in hockey at time of trade) in Vilardi and he is now a gigantic question mark. Maybe Kupari can be a solid Top 6 but we have been watching the core decline and it is wishful thinking to expect the core to replicate any of their career years, outside of Doughty.

What I'm saying is that comparing this team to the Penguins is completely laughable. They have not missed the playoffs since 2005-06 and their worst season since then was 98 points and a first round exit before losing in the 1st round. Their generational talents were younger than 11/8 when they signed their giant contracts so they had more juice left than 11/8 will when the cap gets to a point where their new extensions aren't killing depth elsewhere. Pens had the ability to ride out their stars eating all the cap until the cap increases allowed for flexibility while also hitting on Day 2 draft picks. Kings will not have the best of #11 by the time they have cap relief and #11 at his best doesn't equal Sid + Geno at their best.

The Caps have over 100 points the last four seasons and just couldn't get past the champs in Pittsburgh. I get that last season was supposed to be the end for them but it just happened to all come together with a pretty impressive playoff run after finishing 1st in their division with 100 points.

The Caps are really the team that the retool crowd wants to emulate but, sorry, that is a stance predicated upon believing the Kings core consists of the dudes from 2012-14 and not FIVE SEASONS SINCE. I hate going all caps, but, let's take an honest look at this team and set emotion aside. It also ignores that Washington is a good team and has been, even if the "experts" thought they would take a step back last season. They didn't and they haven't.

The Kings? They've missed the playoffs twice the last four seasons with this season being the third in five. One playoff game victory in what will be five seasons.

Just need some tweaks though while keeping half the roster.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Thanks for those that clarified.

Golden...where is the path to becoming a contender while holding basically all of the current assets that could return at least something of value, even if that value is a spot for a prospect or dropping further in the standings?

The Kings have drafted one guy with an upper-echelon skill set since Schenn (Top prospect in hockey at time of trade) in Vilardi and he is now a gigantic question mark. Maybe Kupari can be a solid Top 6 but we have been watching the core decline and it is wishful thinking to expect the core to replicate any of their career years, outside of Doughty.

What I'm saying is that comparing this team to the Penguins is completely laughable. They have not missed the playoffs since 2005-06 and their worst season since then was 98 points and a first round exit before losing in the 1st round. Their generational talents were younger than 11/8 when they signed their giant contracts so they had more juice left than 11/8 will when the cap gets to a point where their new extensions aren't killing depth elsewhere. Pens had the ability to ride out their stars eating all the cap until the cap increases allowed for flexibility while also hitting on Day 2 draft picks. Kings will not have the best of #11 by the time they have cap relief and #11 at his best doesn't equal Sid + Geno at their best.

The Caps have over 100 points the last four seasons and just couldn't get past the champs in Pittsburgh. I get that last season was supposed to be the end for them but it just happened to all come together with a pretty impressive playoff run after finishing 1st in their division with 100 points.

The Caps are really the team that the retool crowd wants to emulate but, sorry, that is a stance predicated upon believing the Kings core consists of the dudes from 2012-14 and not FIVE SEASONS SINCE. I hate going all caps, but, let's take an honest look at this team and set emotion aside. It also ignores that Washington is a good team and has been, even if the "experts" thought they would take a step back last season. They didn't and they haven't.

The Kings? They've missed the playoffs twice the last four seasons with this season being the third in five. One playoff game victory in what will be five seasons.

Just need some tweaks though while keeping half the roster.

Not saying you're wrong, but, there is no guarantee that retooling the roster works, or rebuilding works. The league is too tight for those type of guarantees etc.

They were talking about the Caps on Hockey Central today, talking about how they were were talked about as contenders from 2010, and went through multiple personnel, coaches, goaltenders etc, and it took them EIGHT years to win the cup, that's while being talked about as contenders. Think about that.

The Kings were only considered contenders for 2 seasons, 2012-2013, 2013-2014, even in 2012 they weren't really considered contenders, they were just....trending up.

While I agree that some shakeup needs to happen, I think you have to be careful in how or what you do it, or you can end up like SJ or St Louis etc

 

[DoktorJeep]

I think last trade deadline and off season is when Detroit signaled it was no longer trying to win with its aging stars. Last one being Zetterberg, who just retired.

The kids they have are picks they would have traded if they were going for a deep run.

The issue is they have overpaid role players on long term deals. They owe guys who are over 30yo like Adbelkader, Helm and Franz Nielsen $60 million dollars in total cap hit for the next 5 years. Absolutely cripples them when trying to make improvements to their roster to get more skilled.

They also have LTIR players to pay for 3 more years, with $25m owed to Zetterberg and Johan Franzen. The Kings could be in a similar situation when looking at Detroit.

So the idea of stripping it down by getting rid of parts that still have value for the next 2-4 years has some appeal to me.

 

[BigKing]

Not saying you're wrong, but, there is no guarantee that retooling the roster works, or rebuilding works. The league is too tight for those type of guarantees etc.

They were talking about the Caps on Hockey Central today, talking about how they were were talked about as contenders from 2010, and went through multiple personnel, coaches, goaltenders etc, and it took them EIGHT years to win the cup, that's while being talked about as contenders. Think about that.

The Kings were only considered contenders for 2 seasons, 2012-2013, 2013-2014, even in 2012 they weren't really considered contenders, they were just....trending up.

While I agree that some shakeup needs to happen, I think you have to be careful in how or what you do it, or you can end up like SJ or St Louis etc

But at least they were talented enough to be contenders for that long.

There are no guarantees in life, as we all know. With that being the case, you need to try and position yourself to acquire the best players available. While there are always busts like a Yakupov and a late round home run like Kucherov, it is still best to draft as early and often as possible.

No guarantees there either as Lombardi wasted #4 on Hickey but the Hawks got their Cups because they won the lottery in that same draft and got Kane. You pick in the Top 3 and you are also picking in the Top 3 of the 2nd round and so on.

I want a rebuild but I'm also 99% certain 11/8 aren't going anywhere. So be it. That means everyone else is available with the Kings top prospects and future draft picks off the table. Fill the roster with plugs and prospects where needed moving forward. Draft at the top of each round and try to be drafting as many times as possible in Rounds 1-4. If 11 and 8 don't like it, then they can be traded since they aren't on board.

We all hate losing. When you are bad on purpose and have some young guys that give hope for the future, then it isn't as bad. When you are trying to be good and are awful? It is the worst. That's what we have now and I can't recall a season as discouraging as this one.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

But at least they were talented enough to be contenders for that long.

There are no guarantees in life, as we all know. With that being the case, you need to try and position yourself to acquire the best players available. While there are always busts like a Yakupov and a late round home run like Kucherov, it is still best to draft as early and often as possible.

No guarantees there either as Lombardi wasted #4 on Hickey but the Hawks got their Cups because they won the lottery in that same draft and got Kane. You pick in the Top 3 and you are also picking in the Top 3 of the 2nd round and so on.

I want a rebuild but I'm also 99% certain 11/8 aren't going anywhere. So be it. That means everyone else is available with the Kings top prospects and future draft picks off the table. Fill the roster with plugs and prospects where needed moving forward. Draft at the top of each round and try to be drafting as many times as possible in Rounds 1-4. If 11 and 8 don't like it, then they can be traded since they aren't on board.

We all hate losing. When you are bad on purpose and have some young guys that give hope for the future, then it isn't as bad. When you are trying to be good and are awful? It is the worst. That's what we have now and I can't recall a season as discouraging as this one.

All of the 80's, MOST of the 90's, some of the 00's......

I think a rebuild throws LA back into the 80-90s, draft, develop sell, draft develop trade.

 

[Butch 19]

I'm certainly not expecting anything, but I think people are underestimating league context right now--the days of the Chicago-La-StL arms races are over, but SJ is still doing it (may be their last hurrah), TB, NSH, and now you have a new wave of up and comers for which some of our vets could play pivotal depth roles, like Winnipeg, Toronto, even possibly Edmonton or Calgary. There are a lot of teams with assets and some cap to burn as well as motivation and roster holes to fill.

Remember at one point we were that team plucking Regehr off Buffalo, Penner off Edmonton.

StL says, "um.... thanks for including us in your short list of Cup winning teams. Could you post something similar in the Blues forum? thanks..."

**** StL!

 

[kovacro]

What would be the issue ending up like SJ? They have a pretty solid roster as it stands. Their systems looks to be rather well stocked and they have been in the playoffs consistently. As long as you get to that ticket punched to the post season, anything can happen.

Is it because they haven't been able to get over the hump and win it all?

How is success measured once you have rebuilt or retooled the roster? Is it becoming a consistent playoff team and winning a round, maybe two? Or is it winning the Cup multiple times in a short time frame?

Curious as to what people's thoughts are.