KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Jussi]

But, of course, folks like @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread will pretend that there is no evidence that it can work out...

That's because there's yet been no evidence of it working out.

 

[Faterson]

You're just saying that Slovan's GM is lying about the first few seasons. That doesn't mean there's no evidence – just that you choose not to believe it.

 

[Jussi]

No one said there was "evidence it would work". Those were your requests repeatedly posted here. There can be no "evidence" that it will or will not work. Those are merely your suppositions and the anti-KHL propaganda you've been spouting here.

This implies there is:

But, of course, folks like @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread will pretend that there is no evidence that it can work out...

You claim people are pretending there's no evidence, therefore implying there is.

 

[Jussi]

You're just saying that Slovan's GM is lying about the first few seasons. That doesn't mean there's no evidence – just that you choose not to believe it.

Where am I saying that?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

But, of course, folks like @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread will pretend that there is no evidence that it can work out...

No one said there was "evidence it would work". Those were your requests repeatedly posted here. There can be no "evidence" that it will or will not work. Those are merely your suppositions and the anti-KHL propaganda you've been spouting here.

I am just going to leave this here for you to mull over.

 

[Faterson]

Guys, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm a linguist by training, so you can't fool me.

If you can't understand the difference between "there's evidence that it can work out" and "there's evidence that it will work out", I really can't help you any further. As I mentioned earlier, it appears to be a reading comprehension issue with y'all.

There's no guarantee that it will work out, but Slovan's first few seasons in the KHL apparently are evidence that it can work out, if we are to believe what Slovan's then-and-now-again GM is saying. You, @Jussi, choose not to believe him, and that is your prerogative. I believe him, because as a season ticket holder from those days I remember when tickets for every game were auctioned off, so Slovan was certainly enjoying a healthy stream of revenue back then.

That's all. Nothing further to discuss at this point, I think, so let's stop going round in circles here, if you will. You guys hate the KHL and want to see it fail at all costs, and that's your prerogative. I want Slovan to escape Slovakia's provincial league and wish for it to play in the world's second-best hockey league again. Perhaps it will happen, perhaps not. Mr. Hrubý knows the answer.

That's all for now.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

I want Slovan to escape Slovakia's provincial league and wish for it to play in the world's second-best hockey league again.

That's all for now.

I don’t think the AHL is taking expansion applications right now.

 

[Jussi]

Guys, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm a linguist by training, so you can't fool me.

If you can't understand the difference between "there's evidence that it can work out" and "there's evidence that it will work out", I really can't help you any further. As I mentioned earlier, it appears to be a reading comprehension issue with y'all.

There's no guarantee that it will work out, but Slovan's first few seasons in the KHL apparently are evidence that it can work out, if we are to believe what Slovan's then-and-now-again GM is saying. You, @Jussi, choose not to believe him, and that is your prerogative. I believe him, because as a season ticket holder from those days I remember when tickets for every game were auctioned off, so Slovan was certainly enjoying a healthy stream of revenue back then.

That's all. Nothing further to discuss at this point, I think, so let's stop going round in circles here, if you will. You guys hate the KHL and want to see it fail at all costs, and that's your prerogative. I want Slovan to escape Slovakia's provincial league and wish for it to play in the world's second-best hockey league again. Perhaps it will happen, perhaps not. Mr. Hrubý knows the answer.

That's all for now.

You clearly haven't been on this site long enough. Can and will have the same meaning here.

Applies to the bold part: Healthy stream of revenue yet they didn't make profit. Does not equate to "can work out". If you're not making profit, it's not working out.

 

[Faterson]

I don’t think the AHL is taking expansion applications right now.

And I don't think the goon-optimized AHL, a farm league, can by any stretch aspire to be called "the world's second-best league". (If it could, the salaries there, for one thing, would be far higher.)

Healthy stream of revenue yet they didn't make profit. Does not equate to "can work out". If you're not making profit, it's not working out.

Says @Jussi, but that's absurd. As the GM said in that interview (have you read the excerpts that @Vorky posted at all?!), all expenses by Slovan in those first couple of KHL seasons were covered by Slovan's revenues.

By any reasonable and unbiased definition of the verb "work out", that definitely means things were working out fine.

There's no obligation for anyone to make profit in order for them to call it a satisfactory enterprise. I've also repeatedly said that Mr. Hrubý appears to be so wealthy that he might perhaps even afford to incur moderate losses for Slovan's participation in the KHL. I'm a small-business person myself, and I make profit some months, whereas in others, I may only earn enough to cover my costs. Does that mean it's "not working out" for me? Of course not. Some months, I even incur losses – does that mean that the entire business is therefore "not working out"? Definitely not. Some months/seasons may be bad, while other months/seasons may be superb. That's how it goes in business; it's often a series of ups and downs.

By all appearances, Slovan's first couple of seasons in the KHL were a resounding success, and then it went downhill pretty fast. There is no evidence pointing in any direction, in case Slovan decides to rejoin the KHL: it might be a success again, or it might be another failure. Who knows?

Anyone who pretends to know ahead of time that it's definitely going to be a failure, is behaving ridiculously, and is not discussing hockey rationally, but simply spouting their anti-KHL bias.

 

[Jussi]

And I don't think the goon-optimized AHL, a farm league, can by any stretch aspire to be called "the world's second-best league". (If it could, the salaries there, for one thing, would be far higher.)



Says @Jussi, but that's absurd. As the GM said in that interview (have you read the excerpts that @Vorky posted at all?!), all expenses by Slovan in those first couple of KHL seasons were covered by Slovan's revenues.

By any reasonable and unbiased definition of the verb "work out", that definitely means things were working out fine.

There's no obligation for anyone to make profit in order for them to call it a satisfactory enterprise. I've also repeatedly said that Mr. Hrubý appears to be so wealthy that he might perhaps even afford to incur moderate losses for Slovan's participation in the KHL. I'm a small-business person myself, and I make profit some months, whereas in others, I may only earn enough to cover my costs. Does that mean it's "not working out" for me? Of course not. Some months, I even incur losses – does that mean that the entire business is therefore "not working out"? Definitely not. Some months/seasons may be bad, while other months/seasons may be superb. That's how it goes in business; it's often a series of ups and downs.

By all appearances, Slovan's first couple of seasons in the KHL were a resounding success, and then it went downhill pretty fast. There is no evidence pointing in any direction, in case Slovan decides to rejoin the KHL: it might be a success again, or it might be another failure. Who knows?

Anyone who pretends to know ahead of time that it's definitely going to be a failure, is behaving ridiculously, and is not discussing hockey rationally, but simply spouting their anti-KHL bias.

Now you're just projecting your bias here. No one is saying it's going to be a failure, but rather that it has BEEN. Also, you're focusing way too much on the first three seasons of Slovan. Much has changed since then. There's more competition in the western conference and the big Russian teams have picked up their game in their front offices. Riga also made the playoffs in the past, look what's happened to them since.

Also, you really need to stop with bullshit "anti-KHL bias" talk. Everything people have criticized here over the years has been about the salary cap and expansion plans and finances. Once the salary cap went down and "harder", as we all suggested they should do, the talk quieted down. You still insist on it on the expansion talk though.

 

[Faterson]

Much has changed since then.

Yes, like the change in Slovan's ownership. So it's a "completely new game" now.

Riga also made the playoffs in the past, look what's happened to them since.

Which doesn't mean other non-Russian clubs must follow suit. You simply don't know. Slovan has never in its history had a private owner who wasn't an oligarch. It's a completely new ballgame now – or puckgame, I guess I should say. You can project your doom & gloom all you want, but it says nothing about the prospect of Slovan's potential return to the KHL. It might be a success, or it might be a failure. Time will tell. (Including whether they aim to return there at all.)

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

And I don't think the goon-optimized AHL, a farm league, can by any stretch aspire to be called "the world's second-best league". (If it could, the salaries there, for one thing, would be far higher.)



Says @Jussi, but that's absurd. As the GM said in that interview (have you read the excerpts that @Vorky posted at all?!), all expenses by Slovan in those first couple of KHL seasons were covered by Slovan's revenues.

By any reasonable and unbiased definition of the verb "work out", that definitely means things were working out fine.

There's no obligation for anyone to make profit in order for them to call it a satisfactory enterprise. I've also repeatedly said that Mr. Hrubý appears to be so wealthy that he might perhaps even afford to incur moderate losses for Slovan's participation in the KHL. I'm a small-business person myself, and I make profit some months, whereas in others, I may only earn enough to cover my costs. Does that mean it's "not working out" for me? Of course not. Some months, I even incur losses – does that mean that the entire business is therefore "not working out"? Definitely not. Some months/seasons may be bad, while other months/seasons may be superb. That's how it goes in business; it's often a series of ups and downs.

By all appearances, Slovan's first couple of seasons in the KHL were a resounding success, and then it went downhill pretty fast. There is no evidence pointing in any direction, in case Slovan decides to rejoin the KHL: it might be a success again, or it might be another failure. Who knows?

Anyone who pretends to know ahead of time that it's definitely going to be a failure, is behaving ridiculously, and is not discussing hockey rationally, but simply spouting their anti-KHL bias.

Appearances apparently deceive, because they only made the playoffs twice in 6 years.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

I’d delve into the concept of a linguist not parsing a joke, but that might be considered flaming.

 

[Faterson]

they only made the playoffs twice in 6 years.

In 7 seasons, and that's perfectly OK with me. The Buffalo Sabres haven't made the play-offs in, what, 15 seasons now? Does that mean they should exit the NHL? Of course not.

If Slovan simply competes for a KHL play-off spot every season, I'd be OK with that, even if they fail to make the play-offs. That's still hugely preferable, and a lot more entertaining hockey to watch, over dominating in Slovakia's provincial league.

Slovan's last couple of KHL seasons were a disaster because Slovan was nowhere near competing for a play-off spot – it was dead-last or close to dead-last in the entire KHL, and that indeed makes no sense.

But remember, that was the previous ownership, and the original, successful GM Krajči had left the club in April 2017. The new owner has now re-hired Krajči, and with that, there is hope (and doubtlessly expectation) that if Slovan rejoins the KHL, it would once again be competing for a play-off spot, like it regularly did during that GM's previous tenure.

 

[Exarz]

Guys, as I mentioned in another thread, I'm a linguist by training, so you can't fool me.

Weird flex but ok

 

[vorky]

In 7 seasons, and that's perfectly OK with me. The Buffalo Sabres haven't made the play-offs in, what, 15 seasons now? Does that mean they should exit the NHL? Of course not.

If Slovan simply competes for a KHL play-off spot every season, I'd be OK with that, even if they fail to make the play-offs. That's still hugely preferable, and a lot more entertaining hockey to watch, over dominating in Slovakia's provincial league.

Slovan's last couple of KHL seasons were a disaster because Slovan was nowhere near competing for a play-off spot – it was dead-last or close to dead-last in the entire KHL, and that indeed makes no sense.

But remember, that was the previous ownership, and the original, successful GM Krajči had left the club in April 2017. The new owner has now re-hired Krajči, and with that, there is hope (and doubtlessly expectation) that if Slovan rejoins the KHL, it would once again be competing for a play-off spot, like it regularly did during that GM's previous tenure.

Regarding your latest sentence. All recent interviews by Krajči have one in common - he realises that KHL Slovan would need to regularly compete for a play-off spot, otherwise there is no sense for a return. With the salary floor/cap, the chances getting higher. But also the financial requirements for the lower-budget clubs.

I am just curious about something else. How long will new Slovan´s ownership accept a situation, which might be insulting for Slovan in some way, that the bigger & more famous club (Slovan) playing just the Slovak league while Capitals playing the international league? That is a crucial answer.

You earlier said about the ideal scenario with three teams playing three different leagues in Bratislava. Yeah, it would be a logistic nightmare. I will give you just one example, all ice advertisements would need to be re-painted before every game. The boards are not that problem. But the rink size definitely is. The KHL is switching to the smaller ice. Within a few years, we will have no venue with the classic IIHF size. Of course, the European clubs, especially Slovak, are too poor to afford all venues reconstruction/construction within a couple of years, so they will likely keep playing in classic size. I see this as the biggest challenge for 3 leagues playing in one venue in Bratislava. Of course, there could be a scenario when the KHL team would have a priority, so the remaining two teams would use the smaller ice.

Guessing that the Slovan´s management, likely only Vajda & Krajči remains in Slovan from KHL times, realises the big difference between the KHL & the Slovak league in marketing & professionalism. It can not be comparable in any way. Now, we hear from Krajči how the new owner would like to create a new business culture in the club. It remains to be seen if this "new culture" has any sense in the club playing just the Slovak league. Standards are too low here.

 

[Faterson]

Bratislava needs a new hockey arena, that's for sure. The maximum attendance of 10,066 (or whatever) is a joke. The new arena was supposed to be built on the other shore of the river Danube for the 2011 World Championships, but it never happened. The oligarch connections may have played a role in that. At that time, the Slovan owner or his associate(s) was also the president of Slovak hockey. Of course, hoping for a new arena to be built in the upcoming years, given the current business climate, appears to be overly optimistic.

 

[KTl]

The league would have collapsed a long time ago if it weren't for government-operated corporations paying the bill for teams.

Now there is your reason why it could work out. At least for a small period of time, again.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Now there is your reason why it could work out. At least for a small period of time, again.

Slovan returning to play for a small period of time in the KHL before folding again isn't "working out."

 

[Faterson]

"Folding again" is your pure (malevolent) fantasy, just part of your kneejerk KHL-hate spouting on this board.

There's no reason to expect it will "fold" anytime soon under the new competent ownership – regardless of which league Slovan will play in.

But Vorky is correct: it's deeply embarrassing for Slovan to be playing in the Slovak league, while a new hockey club like the Bratislava Capitals will be playing in a multi-national league (even though it's "only" EBEL/BetAtHome League).

Given all that, I believe it's likelier for Slovan to attempt to return to the KHL (unless the top Czech league accepts them first) than not to give it a try.

 

[vorky]

There have been constantly "predictions" how the KHL will fold the next day or the day after tomorrow. And nothing is happening. On the other hand, we have been hearing 24/7 how the AHL might not play next season due to the virus. One virus and the league is gone! How strong league! While the KHL is going to play .... it says a lot about these leagues, their strength and economic background. The owners need to commit even in tough times.

If you would like to talk about the NHL business model. I will paraphrase one Russian writer. The NHL says „European prospects want to fulfil their NHL dream & European clubs should release them for miserable $240k“ And the NHL adds, „the IOC should pay NHL billion of dollars for releasing NHLers to Olympics, it is a business.“ Great! How would that business look like if the NHL clubs would need to pay millions for the European prospects?

This note is very important. Look at soccer where the transfer fees are part of the income for weaker leagues/clubs. If this worked in hockey, the European club hockey including the KHL would look different, even in an economic way.

And if you want to give the example with the European hockey scene and their healthy model. It is much easier to break even with €5 million budget than €20 million & more like in the KHL. When the European leagues and all their clubs increase their budget at least on the KHL top level while all clubs being profitable, then I will say молодцы! European club hockey needs to invest in its development. The fans deserve it! Sadly, just one league has this ambition.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

There have been constantly "predictions" how the KHL will fold the next day or the day after tomorrow. And nothing is happening. On the other hand, we have been hearing 24/7 how the AHL might not play next season due to the virus. One virus and the league is gone! How strong league! While the KHL is going to play .... it says a lot about these leagues, their strength and economic background. The owners need to commit even in tough times.

*talks about rumors that haven't come true so it fits his warped narrative*
*also mentions more rumors that haven't come true so it fits his warped narrative*

 

[Albatros]

There have been constantly "predictions" how the KHL will fold the next day or the day after tomorrow. And nothing is happening. On the other hand, we have been hearing 24/7 how the AHL might not play next season due to the virus. One virus and the league is gone! How strong league! While the KHL is going to play .... it says a lot about these leagues, their strength and economic background. The owners need to commit even in tough times.

Is there a professional league in existence anywhere in the world that has lost more teams in recent years than the KHL?

 

[filip85]

I am not KHL hater, au contraire, I would just rather see some traditional russian team like Krylya Sovetov back than Slovan.

 

[alko]

At the end, it doesn't matter, what want to say @pukovnik, @vorky, @Faterson, @TheWhiskeyThief, @Jussi, @alko and believe or not even @Barclay Donaldson. It is all about the owners, what they want.

Im throwing my 5 € into jackpot, that Slovan will play in KHL in the next 5 years.