KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Faterson]

They made the playoffs twice in 6 years, were always behind on wages, rent, you name it. To call it a folly is being generous.

Can't you read? Slovan has a completely new ownership now. Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant. Mr. Hrubý is no oligarch. He either does business responsibly, or he doesn't do it. Unlike with oligarchs, he can't rely on the government to help him out in case his businesses misfire.

Also, please don't use names like Hungary, Poland and Romania in the same sentence with Slovan. It's an insult. The only non-insultung options for Slovan are the KHL or the top Czech league, period. If neither of these two options works out, Slovan must stay in the irrelevant Slovak league and thank the crazy nationalists of the early 1990s for needlessly having broken up long-standing Czecho-Slovak leagues. The two countries could have separated if absolutely necessary (and the national teams definitely should have separated as early as 1989), but the common sports leagues should have continued.

 

[Albatros]

I think closer cooperation between Poland and Slovakia would make a lot of sense in hockey, providing growth in Poland and access to some additional resources in Slovakia. Of course for Slovan this is of no importance.

 

[filip85]

I really don't know why is Slovan "so special" that Czechs or KHL would needed them so desperately. They won like one Czechslovakian championship, ok bunch of SVK titles, but that league is not so good. When they did produce NHL worthy player last time ? IIRC last one is Lubomir Visnovsky, and that was quite time ago...

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Can't you read? Slovan has a completely new ownership now. Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant. Mr. Hrubý is no oligarch. He either does business responsibly, or he doesn't do it. Unlike with oligarchs, he can't rely on the government to help him out in case his businesses misfire.

Also, please don't use names like Hungary, Poland and Romania in the same sentence with Slovan. It's an insult. The only non-insultung options for Slovan are the KHL or the top Czech league, period. If neither of these two options works out, Slovan must stay in the irrelevant Slovak league and thank the crazy nationalists of the early 1990s for needlessly having broken up long-standing Czecho-Slovak leagues. The two countries could have separated if absolutely necessary (and the national teams definitely should have separated as early as 1989), but the common sports leagues should have continued.

Unless Bill Gates or Roman Abromovich owns the team, not many people can afford to lose €10mm+ annually without a state subsidy and that’s what they’d lose in the KHL. The TV money sucks, the travel costs are crippling, the merch & concession sales are meager and the price point for the average ticket will never make for a break even operation.

No one outside of the Slovan marks cares about their glorious history(1 title in Czechoslovak league, 8 titles as the league’s tallest midget) but if you parachute them into the Xtraliga under new ownership and a roster built on the fly is a recipe for 1st year relegation, which is always the best business outcome.

 

[Faterson]

I really don't know why is Slovan "so special" that Czechs or KHL would needed them so desperately. They won like one Czechslovakian championship, ok bunch of SVK titles, but that league is not so good. When they did produce NHL worthy player last time ? IIRC last one is Lubomir Visnovsky, and that was quite time ago...

No one says "the Czechs or the KHL need Slovan desperately". What I'm saying is that for a club that produced the NHL Hall of Famer Peter Šťastný (the NHL's highest-scoring player of the 1980s after Gretzky) among others, those two leagues are the only decent international options. Mentioning Hungary, Poland or Romania really is an insult.

Mark it, I'm not prejudiced against those countries, but in hockey, they mean nothing.

If this was an international football league we were talking about, it would be an honor for Slovak clubs to be invited to play in an international league with clubs from Poland, Hungary and Romania (let alone Croatia). But not in hockey.

 

[Faterson]

Unless Bill Gates or Roman Abromovich owns the team, not many people can afford to lose €10mm+ annually without a state subsidy and that’s what they’d lose in the KHL. The TV money sucks, the travel costs are crippling, the merch & concession sales are meager and the price point for the average ticket will never make for a break even operation.

Hrubý is reported to be worth €630 million, so he should be able to absorb moderate losses.

But what you say is nonsense, of course. Joining the KHL does not equal net loss with zero profit. Perhaps that is true in Russia, the model oligarchy, but not in a normal business environment. There are potential bonuses connected, sponsorship deals, etc. etc.

Take the iClinic guy who openly admitted that the main reason why Bratislava Capitals are joining EBEL is so that he can use the club as an advertising vehicle for his optician's business in Austria. He said that every euro that he invests in the club's participation in EBEL, he will get back in terms of advertising costs saved.

Something similar could be said of Slovan's potential participation in the KHL. It might not be an entirely profitable operation, but it would definitely not be the net loss undertaking that you proclaim it to be, either.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Hrubý is reported to be worth €630 million, so he should be able to absorb moderate losses.

But what you say is nonsense, of course. Joining the KHL does not equal net loss with zero profit. Perhaps that is true in Russia, the model oligarchy, but not in a normal business environment. There are potential bonuses connected, sponsorship deals, etc. etc.

Take the iClinic guy who openly admitted that the main reason why Bratislava Capitals are joining EBEL is so that he can use the club as an advertising vehicle for his optician's business in Austria. He said that every euro that he invests in the club's participation in EBEL, he will get back in terms of advertising costs saved.

Something similar could be said of Slovan's potential participation in the KHL. It might not be an entirely profitable operation, but it would definitely not be the net loss undertaking that you proclaim it to be, either.

As we’re finding out in the pandemic, net worth and cash flow are two entirely different things. Saudi Arabia has the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world worth trillions, yet they’re burning through cash reserves like nobody’s business.

The budget for the Capitals will be >€5mm, probably closer to €3mm. He could play in an empty building all season and lose less money than Slovan would in the KHL.

As for teams from the likes of Hungary, Romania & Poland trying to climb a ladder, what’s your provincial hang up? Hungarian teams already in the Slovak league, having a structure where any team can compete in a lower level and work their up via merit would help grow the game and raise the standard for everybody.

 

[Faterson]

The Slovak league is a second-tier competition, so yes, for all I care, teams from Hungary, Poland and Romania can join it.

What I'm saying is that Slovan should aim higher than to play in Slovakia-only league. Until the breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1992, that would have been the country's second league, and no Slovan fan would accept if that was the only league where Slovan was playing. And that's essentially what that league is today as well – second-tier, although officially "top".

The Slovak league would be the perfect place for Slovan's farm team (ideally located in Bratislava, too, just like the Toronto Maple Leafs have the Toronto Marlies), for developmental purposes.

 

[Jussi]

Hrubý is reported to be worth €630 million, so he should be able to absorb moderate losses.

But what you say is nonsense, of course. Joining the KHL does not equal net loss with zero profit. Perhaps that is true in Russia, the model oligarchy, but not in a normal business environment. There are potential bonuses connected, sponsorship deals, etc. etc.

Take the iClinic guy who openly admitted that the main reason why Bratislava Capitals are joining EBEL is so that he can use the club as an advertising vehicle for his optician's business in Austria. He said that every euro that he invests in the club's participation in EBEL, he will get back in terms of advertising costs saved.

Something similar could be said of Slovan's potential participation in the KHL. It might not be an entirely profitable operation, but it would definitely not be the net loss undertaking that you proclaim it to be, either.

Jokerit say hi.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Joining the KHL does not equal net loss with zero profit. Perhaps that is true in Russia, the model oligarchy, but not in a normal business environment. There are potential bonuses connected, sponsorship deals, etc. etc.

Jokerit, Lev Praha, Lev Poprad, Medvescak, and Donbass all say Привет. So does Riga and Minsk. But please, continue about how others are talking nonsense.

 

[Faterson]

Elementary flaws in logic and reading comprehension, guys. Even if you listed 15 examples, that does not establish a law that joining the KHL brings only losses and no benefits.

And congratulations on using the example of a war-torn city as evidence for the KHL's unsustainability. What will be your next example? Syria as evidence of impossibility of world peace?

 

[Jussi]

Elementary flaws in logic and reading comprehension, guys. Even if you listed 15 examples, that does not establish a law that joining the KHL brings only losses and no benefits.

And congratulations on using the example of a war-torn city as evidence for the KHL's unsustainability. What will be your next example? Syria as evidence of impossibility of world peace?

So basically despite there being zero evidence of any benefits you're just going to

 

[Faterson]

Not "la la la", just saying that there definitely can be benefits for the club's new ownership connected to the club's participation in the KHL, compared to its staying in the provincial Slovak league where those benefits would not exist.

It goes without saying that the prospects of closing lucrative sponsorship deals would be far better for a club playing on the international scene, in the world's second-best hockey league, than for a club just playing in Slovakia. That's like saying 2 + 2 = 4. So @TheWhiskeyThief, @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread should not pretend as if nothing but downsides and catastrophic losses are connected to Slovan's potentially re-joining the KHL.

Again, take the Bratislava Capitals example with EBEL. I suppose that in a traditional analysis of pluses and minuses, you would come up with a net loss, but I believe the club's owner when he says in interviews that in the final analysis, when you consider the advertising costs he would have to invest elsewhere, if it hadn't been for the club playing in EBEL, he will consider it a profitable undertaking.

I'm not saying that the same can be accomplished on a much larger scale with Slovan and the KHL, but there would definitely be some distinct benefits for Slovan if it rejoins the KHL that would not exist if it stays where it is today – stuck in the provincial league.

Plus, consider that the Bratislava Capitals owner's eye clinics only operate in Slovakia, Austria, etc. (that is, in Central Europe), whereas Mr. Hrubý's original business with the ESET/Nod antivirus software is established around the world. So, you have the necessary difference in scale right there. The Bratislava Capitals owner compared to the Slovan owner is like EBEL compared to the KHL. Both owners are millionaires, but there's a difference in scale. Just like the Bratislava Capitals owner manages to pull off the club's participation in EBEL financially, Mr. Hrubý might be capable of doing the same for Slovan with the KHL. Not saying he will, but he might. Claiming, without evidence, that it's downright impossible, is "la la la" from you.

And, as mentioned earlier, the new owner, Mr. Hrubý, appears to be wealthy enough (reportedly six times wealthier than the previous owner) to be able to absorb some moderate losses. Not total losses with zero benefits season after season, but moderate losses that go along with supporting a costly "hobby" like this. Plus, him not being an oligarch means he does business in a completely different way (responsible way) compared to the previous owner – and that may be a crucial difference compared to Jokerit, too, which (so I heard) is in Russian hands.

 

[Albatros]

The Capitals in the Slovak league was no longer viable once Slovan came back, joining the ICE was also a way to secure an existence for the team.

 

[Faterson]

Yeah, but the Capitals owner also clearly stated that he needs to advertise his optician's business in Austria, and that goal would not have been accomplished with the Capitals playing in the Slovak league.

Various factors and coincidences may have contributed to the decision, but I'm happy that the Capitals have joined EBEL (or whatever the league's name will be in future), and I wouldn't mind attending a game or two. I certainly find EBEL more interesting and attractive than the Slovak league (with 2 Hungarian clubs playing in it).

The Capitals' attendance so far has been abysmal (hundreds per game), and that would have remained the same if the Capitals played in the top Slovak league (regardless of whether Slovan played in it, too), but in joining EBEL, the Capitals may have found a nice niche for them. We'll see.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Not "la la la", just saying that there definitely can be benefits for the club's new ownership connected to the club's participation in the KHL, compared to its staying in the provincial Slovak league where those benefits would not exist.

It goes without saying that the prospects of closing lucrative sponsorship deals would be far better for a club playing on the international scene, in the world's second-best hockey league, than for a club just playing in Slovakia. That's like saying 2 + 2 = 4. So @TheWhiskeyThief, @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread should not pretend as if nothing but downsides and catastrophic losses are connected to Slovan's potentially re-joining the KHL.

Again, take the Bratislava Capitals example with EBEL. I suppose that in a traditional analysis of pluses and minuses, you would come up with a net loss, but I believe the club's owner when he says in interviews that in the final analysis, when you consider the advertising costs he would have to invest elsewhere, if it hadn't been for the club playing in EBEL, he will consider it a profitable undertaking.

I'm not saying that the same can be accomplished on a much larger scale with Slovan and the KHL, but there would definitely be some distinct benefits for Slovan if it rejoins the KHL that would not exist if it stays where it is today – stuck in the provincial league.

Plus, consider that the Bratislava Capitals owner's eye clinics only operate in Slovakia, Austria, etc. (that is, in Central Europe), whereas Mr. Hrubý's original business with the ESET/Nod antivirus software is established around the world. So, you have the necessary difference in scale right there. The Bratislava Capitals owner compared to the Slovan owner is like EBEL compared to the KHL. Both owners are millionaires, but there's a difference in scale. Just like the Bratislava Capitals owner manages to pull off the club's participation in EBEL financially, Mr. Hrubý might be capable of doing the same for Slovan with the KHL. Not saying he will, but he might. Claiming, without evidence, that it's downright impossible, is "la la la" from you.

And, as mentioned earlier, the new owner, Mr. Hrubý, appears to be wealthy enough (reportedly six times wealthier than the previous owner) to be able to absorb some moderate losses. Not total losses with zero benefits season after season, but moderate losses that go along with supporting a costly "hobby" like this. Plus, him not being an oligarch means he does business in a completely different way (responsible way) compared to the previous owner – and that may be a crucial difference compared to Jokerit, too, which (so I heard) is in Russian hands.

Clearly you don’t know how evidence works. Usually people back up their claims. No KHL team has made money in recent history, besides SKA sneakily doing it with Gazprom’s sponsorship being their main source of income. You’re making claims that aren’t backed up with any evidence. We’ve all offered plenty of evidence they won’t make money. Time for you to pull to offer up some evidence. Saying “It’s possible” isn’t evidence. Saying “No one has even come close yet for these reasons, and Slovan wouldn’t for these same reasons” is very good evidence.

 

[KTl]

Slovan has a completely new ownership now. Whatever happened in the past is irrelevant.

History is the best teacher, who has the worst students. Indira Gandhi

 

[vorky]

Not "la la la", just saying that there definitely can be benefits for the club's new ownership connected to the club's participation in the KHL, compared to its staying in the provincial Slovak league where those benefits would not exist.

It goes without saying that the prospects of closing lucrative sponsorship deals would be far better for a club playing on the international scene, in the world's second-best hockey league, than for a club just playing in Slovakia. That's like saying 2 + 2 = 4. So @TheWhiskeyThief, @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread should not pretend as if nothing but downsides and catastrophic losses are connected to Slovan's potentially re-joining the KHL.

Again, take the Bratislava Capitals example with EBEL. I suppose that in a traditional analysis of pluses and minuses, you would come up with a net loss, but I believe the club's owner when he says in interviews that in the final analysis, when you consider the advertising costs he would have to invest elsewhere, if it hadn't been for the club playing in EBEL, he will consider it a profitable undertaking.

I'm not saying that the same can be accomplished on a much larger scale with Slovan and the KHL, but there would definitely be some distinct benefits for Slovan if it rejoins the KHL that would not exist if it stays where it is today – stuck in the provincial league.

Plus, consider that the Bratislava Capitals owner's eye clinics only operate in Slovakia, Austria, etc. (that is, in Central Europe), whereas Mr. Hrubý's original business with the ESET/Nod antivirus software is established around the world. So, you have the necessary difference in scale right there. The Bratislava Capitals owner compared to the Slovan owner is like EBEL compared to the KHL. Both owners are millionaires, but there's a difference in scale. Just like the Bratislava Capitals owner manages to pull off the club's participation in EBEL financially, Mr. Hrubý might be capable of doing the same for Slovan with the KHL. Not saying he will, but he might. Claiming, without evidence, that it's downright impossible, is "la la la" from you.

And, as mentioned earlier, the new owner, Mr. Hrubý, appears to be wealthy enough (reportedly six times wealthier than the previous owner) to be able to absorb some moderate losses. Not total losses with zero benefits season after season, but moderate losses that go along with supporting a costly "hobby" like this. Plus, him not being an oligarch means he does business in a completely different way (responsible way) compared to the previous owner – and that may be a crucial difference compared to Jokerit, too, which (so I heard) is in Russian hands.

Very good points which are ignored by some posters. I will interpret your example. Not saying it will happen though.

You say that "there definitely can be benefits for the club's new ownership connected to the club's participation in the KHL." Yes, there can be. Let us imagine, Mr. Hrubý wants to promote his core business or negotiate some agreements with the Russian companies or the Russian government. What is the easiest way to do so? Of course, attending a KHL game in the VIP section. Now, Mr. Hrubý has closed doors to the KHL VIP sections, as the owner the doors are opening for him. He can meet Mr. Sechin, Mr. Miller, Mr. Chernyshenko, Mr.Mishustin, Mr. Medvedev, Mr. Timchenko & others.

All described above can be modified for any European or Asian club joining the KHL. No other European hockey league can offer such benefits.

You can not take just pure economics as the only reason for joining or not-joining the KHL.

Plus there is the KHL Development Strategy, which includes all economic parameters for clubs. Just noting it for everybody to understand it. It is up to everyone to make his own research on the topic.

 

[Albatros]

If having access to Russian oligarchs was of any significant value, one would think a club like Jokerit would find other owners than Russian oligarchs.

 

[vorky]

Below I will quote Krajči & his words for Denník Pravda. I believe @Faterson read it. One more time, that are NOT my words but Krajči.

When I left Slovan (2017 & KHL), we had a majority of skyboxes under contract/sold, today we have one skybox under contract. The same can be said about VIP sections.

He repeated his words about the future - one team for KHL and one team for Slovak league as an ideal scenario.

The early KHL years were financially positive for Slovan. We were in black numbers in the early KHL seasons. Our fanbase had grown, the fans were coming from Humenne, behind Moravia river or Burgenland, our prices grew up. The first season was great, ticketing, merchandising and advertisement agreements covered all our budget.

The hockey executives in Slovak hockey have changed within years when Krajči was not in Slovan. Now I attended one Pro-Hokej meeting, talked to Šatan. Of course, it is very different. Just a few years ago, while being Slovan GM, I usually met at KHL meetings with Fjodorov, Kamensky, Tretiak, Zhamnov, Nemchinov, Kurri or Keenan. These KHL GMs meetings are not comparable to anything in Europe hockey club community. You know, people in Magnitogorsk, Moscow and Bratislava solve a different type of problems than Detva or Michalovce.

Noting again, those are words by Krajči.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Amazingly, people like novelty, but not being able to compete took its toll. To be not able to break unless above 90% not a good sign. People took the leap, apparently didn’t find value for money.

Courtesy Hockeydb

 

[Faterson]

Amazingly, people like novelty, but not being able to compete took its toll.

That was largely due to incompetent club management. When people see the club failing to pay its players season after season, and losing quality players because of that, they know that the club's ambitions are nil. With new, competent club management, Slovan could get back to those numbers from the first few KHL seasons.

 

[Faterson]

The early KHL years were financially positive for Slovan. We were in black numbers in the early KHL seasons. Our fanbase had grown, the fans were coming from Humenne, behind Moravia river or Burgenland, our prices were growing. The first season was great, ticketing, merchandising and advertisement agreements covered all our budget.

But, of course, folks like @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread will pretend that there is no evidence that it can work out...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

But, of course, folks like @Barclay Donaldson and others in this thread will pretend that there is no evidence that it can work out...

There is more evidence that it can't work out than it can work out. It didn't work in Praha, Croatia, or Poprad. It isn't working in Jokerit. It isn't working in Minsk or Riga. It isn't even working for many Russian teams. That whole "it will be different if it is tried again" is not evidence that it will work. The league would have collapsed a long time ago if it weren't for government-operated corporations paying the bill for teams. There have been plenty of KHL teams that have failed to pay their players among other personnel and they are still around with fan support.

Considering Slovan were in debt after a few season, I would like evidence they made money in the first few seasons. Otherwise, it is as meaningless as the rest of the ignorant propaganda you've pumped out so far.

Or you can be like some users and keep ignoring the mountains of evidence that it won't work out.

 

[Faterson]

That whole "it will be different if it is tried again" is not evidence that it will work.

No one said there was "evidence it would work". Those were your requests repeatedly posted here. There can be no "evidence" that it will or will not work. Those are merely your suppositions and the anti-KHL propaganda you've been spouting here.

With that type of thinking, Slovan would never have joined the KHL in the first place. It was utter science fiction even while Lev Poprad was playing there, let me tell you that. Yet it did happen, it lasted for 7 seasons, and the first few seasons were hugely successful – clearly the best times the club has experienced since that championship of Czechoslovakia won decades ago.

So, Slovan may try it with the KHL again, or it may not. It's up to the new owner to decide.