KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Barclay Donaldson]

I dont know where are you from, but i assume, certain not from Slovakia. Especially from Bratislava.

When Slovan had a good team, played in playoffs, the stadium was full. Tickets were sold in minutes.

Yeah, then the owner was in financial trouble, players were sad and therefore performance dropped significantly. At the end it was simple a trash.

But as i mentioned above. Build a good team, dont forget to pay their checks, fans will come.

And to the profit you mentioned. How many KHL teams make a profit to their owners?

I am not from Slovakia. But it does not take a Slovak to know that if the team is in playoffs and the arena is not full and tickets aren't sold out in minutes, then there is a problem. The hypothetical situation you are suggesting is a low standard to achieve. That is like saying "if the team does well, people will attend games." (sarcasm initiated) Great idea, genius. (sarcasm ended). Being a Slovak is not a requirement for this basic sports business principle.

For the profit, one team (CKA *supposedly*) makes a profit. And like countless times before in this thread, there is no one left in Europe who wants to join a league where the only financial result is posting a loss. Where do you expect to find an owner who wants to throw away money when they can be in a league with less quality, but at least not losing tens of millions of euro every single season? If there was one, they would have stepped forward to keep Slovan in the KHL. Instead, they built around Slovan's return to the Slovak ligue.

I seem to remember you mentioning someone who wants a big playground. And it can't be made any more clearer to you than this: anyone who wants a playground knows it is better to have a slightly smaller and more efficient playground that will be there for many years than one that is a money pit, and will disappear the second they don't want to keep losing money for the rest of time. It is easy to dream big and fantasize when it is not your money.

 

[alko]

I am not from Slovakia. But it does not take a Slovak to know that if the team is in playoffs and the arena is not full and tickets aren't sold out in minutes, then there is a problem. The hypothetical situation you are suggesting is a low standard to achieve. That is like saying "if the team does well, people will attend games." (sarcasm initiated) Great idea, genius. (sarcasm ended). Being a Slovak is not a requirement for this basic sports business principle.

For the profit, one team (CKA *supposedly*) makes a profit. And like countless times before in this thread, there is no one left in Europe who wants to join a league where the only financial result is posting a loss. Where do you expect to find an owner who wants to throw away money when they can be in a league with less quality, but at least not losing tens of millions of euro every single season? If there was one, they would have stepped forward to keep Slovan in the KHL. Instead, they built around Slovan's return to the Slovak ligue.

I seem to remember you mentioning someone who wants a big playground. And it can't be made any more clearer to you than this: anyone who wants a playground knows it is better to have a slightly smaller and more efficient playground that will be there for many years than one that is a money pit, and will disappear the second they don't want to keep losing money for the rest of time. It is easy to dream big and fantasize when it is not your money.

I understand. But as always, you will protect your vision, im protecting my vision. And i say, KHL in Bratislava has potential. You not, but its ok. Everyone has his own opinion. I respect that.

 

[vorky]

That is basically true, but can't be said for everyone everywhere. They succeeded in breaking into an existing non-Eastern European market with Jokerit, and with the right concept, that might work in other traditional markets as well. Yes, it failed in Prague because it was not enough to just build a new club from scratch that isn't appreciated by fans, but letting existing clubs join can work. Here in Germany, there have been rumors going on for years whether a German team would join, with possible teams including Hanover, Düsseldorf, Berlin and Leipzig, and there is a certain interest among German hockey fans, because while hockey is popular in Germany, the top-tier league is rather poor and the KHL would be an improvement. Plus, bigger countries like Germany have more than one big town where hockey can work, unlike Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia, where the top club basically is almost all the hockey in the country with little competition. Meaning that the German league would not suffer as much when losing a team to the KHL as in smaller countries.

You say very true things.

Regarding Germany. The KHL has always been interested in a club from Germany. It is 100% there have been talks. Of course, we do not know if it is a DEL club or a brand-new one. It is important for a club to have an appropriate arena, at least 12,000 seats. Plus, the arena needs to fulfil all KHL conditions. Guessing, every German arena would need to invest a few bucks to comply with the KHL conditions. Nothing serious, though.

The KHL is also interested in organising the KHL World Games in Germany. DEB is interested as well. The KHL has been testing the markets for potential expansion with the KHL World Games.

Even though some people here say about no-interest among German clubs, all KHL statements say the opposite. Of course, it does not mean that 10 DEL clubs are interested, of course not. Btw, all negotiating details will not be revealed until a deal is done. The same as we saw with Jokerit. Nobody mentioned Jokerit seriously before the deal was announced. Guessing the same will happen in Germany or other countries. Just pointing out, several "Espoo moves" can happen within time.

We also do not know about the level & intensity of negotiations with the German side. Many factors influence it, for instance, who will be a new IIHF President. I will not talk about other non-hockey factors which are known to everyone.

Regarding money. You need around €20 mil to play a solid role in the KHL. Of course, just a few can afford it. It is a business at the end of a day.

 

[vorky]

I dont know where are you from, but i assume, certain not from Slovakia. Especially from Bratislava.

When Slovan had a good team, played in playoffs, the stadium was full. Tickets were sold in minutes.

Yeah, then the owner was in financial trouble, players were sad and therefore performance dropped significantly. At the end it was simple a trash.

But as i mentioned above. Build a good team, dont forget to pay their checks, fans will come.

And to the profit you mentioned. How many KHL teams make a profit to their owners?

Of course, you need to have more detailed information to seriously comment on things. Looks like you have it in Slovan´s case.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I understand. But as always, you will protect your vision, im protecting my vision. And i say, KHL in Bratislava has potential. You not, but its ok. Everyone has his own opinion. I respect that.

And I respect that you hold the entirely invalid opinion that KHL in Bratislava has potential despite there not being a single shred of evidence that the KHL could or would return there after their 7 year stay that recently ended. One thing I do not respect is your ridiculous thoughts that "the team did well in the stands when the team was good, but no matter what lost a lot of money, all they need to do is find someone willing to bankroll the team and it will do well" is evidence that the KHL in Bratislava can succeed.

 

[Jussi]

I dont know where are you from, but i assume, certain not from Slovakia. Especially from Bratislava.

When Slovan had a good team, played in playoffs, the stadium was full. Tickets were sold in minutes.

Yeah, then the owner was in financial trouble, players were sad and therefore performance dropped significantly. At the end it was simple a trash.

But as i mentioned above. Build a good team, dont forget to pay their checks, fans will come.

And to the profit you mentioned. How many KHL teams make a profit to their owners?

I'm sorry but the the fact that you need someone to pay for the losses is alone proof of not succeeding. Success in European hockey leagues are determined by three factors: league standing at the end of the season, financial bottomline and junior developmental system (how many "own" players in the team and how many NHL draftees). Examples: Kärpät, Frölunda.

 

[mkev400]

[...]
Here in Germany, there have been rumors going on for years whether a German team would join, with possible teams including Hanover, Düsseldorf, Berlin and Leipzig, and there is a certain interest among German hockey fans, because while hockey is popular in Germany, the top-tier league is rather poor and the KHL would be an improvement. Plus, bigger countries like Germany have more than one big town where hockey can work, unlike Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia, where the top club basically is almost all the hockey in the country with little competition. Meaning that the German league would not suffer as much when losing a team to the KHL as in smaller countries.

I dont know if you follow the shorthanded news podcast on German Ice Hockey, but they had a very interesting episode a few months back when they were discussing the woes of the Krefeld Pinguine, which basically stated that none of the teams in the DEL make any money and that their budgets are not covered by capital. Essentially private entities (e.g. Hopp, Anschutz, formerly Ponomarew, Sabo, much like the KHL actually) are propping up the clubs and they are just about breaking even. Attendance is a key contributor to get close to even and you can currently see how fragile the leagues finances are, because none of the DEL clubs will survive if they don't have attendance in the stands, because the cost of running a team, in a league where over 75-80% of trips are covered by bus journeys and overnight stays are in most cases not required, that no financier in Germany would be willing to take a € 8,000,000 loss (which was the figure of the Sabo fronted in Nuremberg if I remember correctly). A jump to the KHL would come at a huge increase in running cost, mainly for travel every game will be a 4+-hour fly-away trip at the least.
Its also very likely that attendances will drop very quickly, after the novelty factor wears off, because of the increased number of weekday games (DEL makes its attendance figures because it plays on the weekends), and the loss of local rivalries (example Dusseldorf, Cologne, Krefeld) for which tickets generally sell better.
The DEL is littered with examples of owners and financiers being sick of losing the "moderate amount of money that they are, so I doubt there is much will to lose more. Hanover collapsed because the owner of the team were sick of losing money, and Krefeld was close to the same fate a few short weeks ago, although, admittedly the situation is more complicated because no one wanted to deal with Ponomarew. Duisburg collapsed badly when the financier (Ralf Pape) pulled out, and the situation has been so bad ever since that he has had to come in twice more for short periods of time to bail the club out and keep it alive.
Duesseldorf nearly collapsed when Metro pulled out and were only just saved by fan support and some local investors, something that Hamburg wasnt able to pull off when AEG decided to give up the Freezers. And Thomas Sabo announced last year that he was tired of propping up Nuremberg as its de facto only source of money and they have had to find new investors as well.
The whole corona crisis makes the whole KHL in Germany though even less likely.

 

[alko]

all they need to do is find someone willing to bankroll the team

But that is KHL in general.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

I dont know if you follow the shorthanded news podcast on German Ice Hockey, but they had a very interesting episode a few months back when they were discussing the woes of the Krefeld Pinguine, which basically stated that none of the teams in the DEL make any money and that their budgets are not covered by capital. Essentially private entities (e.g. Hopp, Anschutz, formerly Ponomarew, Sabo, much like the KHL actually) are propping up the clubs and they are just about breaking even. Attendance is a key contributor to get close to even and you can currently see how fragile the leagues finances are, because none of the DEL clubs will survive if they don't have attendance in the stands, because the cost of running a team, in a league where over 75-80% of trips are covered by bus journeys and overnight stays are in most cases not required, that no financier in Germany would be willing to take a € 8,000,000 loss (which was the figure of the Sabo fronted in Nuremberg if I remember correctly). A jump to the KHL would come at a huge increase in running cost, mainly for travel every game will be a 4+-hour fly-away trip at the least.
Its also very likely that attendances will drop very quickly, after the novelty factor wears off, because of the increased number of weekday games (DEL makes its attendance figures because it plays on the weekends), and the loss of local rivalries (example Dusseldorf, Cologne, Krefeld) for which tickets generally sell better.
The DEL is littered with examples of owners and financiers being sick of losing the "moderate amount of money that they are, so I doubt there is much will to lose more. Hanover collapsed because the owner of the team were sick of losing money, and Krefeld was close to the same fate a few short weeks ago, although, admittedly the situation is more complicated because no one wanted to deal with Ponomarew. Duisburg collapsed badly when the financier (Ralf Pape) pulled out, and the situation has been so bad ever since that he has had to come in twice more for short periods of time to bail the club out and keep it alive.
Duesseldorf nearly collapsed when Metro pulled out and were only just saved by fan support and some local investors, something that Hamburg wasnt able to pull off when AEG decided to give up the Freezers. And Thomas Sabo announced last year that he was tired of propping up Nuremberg as its de facto only source of money and they have had to find new investors as well.
The whole corona crisis makes the whole KHL in Germany though even less likely.

Travel costs in the KHL would be around €4mm/yr if chartering 100%, but could knock a 1/4 off(maybe) by flying commercial. Then again, with some of those cities, that’s one heck of a logistical challenge.

Trying to have leagues to compete with the NHL means a league with cities and incomes to match the NHL. Smallest market in the NHL (Winnipeg)is the size of Helsinki. You can’t, so don’t. Leagues should just structure their competitions to allow clubs from other countries with similar GDP an avenue into the top league through promotion/relegation

KHL has 11 cities that have the population to sustain large crowds, but even then the GDP per capita is 1/5 of NHL countries (with only Finland being close.)

Giving a club in Milan/Turin an avenue to NLA via playing their way into NLB (and spending on building the youth system/infrastructure)would do more to grow the game there rather than spending way more money on bloated payroll/travel costs for a short time in the KHL.

Slovak extraliga ought to figure out how to make a league with Czech 2 that includes clubs from Hungary/Poland with a chance at promotion to the Czech extraliga, while all league cooperate on TV distro platforms.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

But that is KHL in general.

All the more reason it is less likely to happen and also logically makes less sense to join. It makes more logical sense to strengthen individual leagues within individual countries rather than make a super league. And thankfully the powers at play in Europe have realized this and put the failed KHL European conquest behind them and it won't be dug up any time soon.

 

[vorky]

Just a look at the league´s previous statements.

The league said they are working on a League´s Strategy. Result? They adopted it.

The league said they are working on a hard salary cap. Result? Adopted.

The league said they would like to play a regular-season game or games on the territory without KHL club. Result? The KHL World Games have been played in Austria & Switzerland.

The league said they would recommend their clubs to switch the rink size to so-called Finnish or NHL. Result? Clubs have been switching the rink size. Within a few seasons, there will be no classic IIHF rink size in the KHL.

And I could go on ...

The point is that the league has been working on things/issues which have a real reason for doing so. There is some background for their work because the league has much more information on real things happening than ordinary fans or even journalists. They do not work on things which have zero chance to happen. As simple as that.

Now, if all statements regarding expansion are fakes, there have been no talks with anybody. Could anybody explain to me why the league created a working group to consider the league´s schedule for the future? The following schedule, less travelling, more games in regions, no travelling from Europe to the Far East in the regular season, dividing the league into three (or more) groups - Europe, Central Russia, Far East-Asia.

So, they have nothing to do in the league, so they are working on unrealistic scenarios? Or they have some inside information and based on this info, they are working on certain scenarios? It is up to you to decide.

 

[vorky]

It is not rocket science to understand that society has been developing over time. What you understand as a final stage may not be a final stage for the organiser. That´s simple to get.

 

[mkev400]

Just a look at the league´s previous statements.

The league said they are working on a League´s Strategy. Result? They adopted it.

The league said they are working on a hard salary cap. Result? Adopted.

The league said they would like to play a regular-season game or games on the territory without KHL club. Result? The KHL World Games have been played in Austria & Switzerland.

The league said they would recommend their clubs to switch the rink size to so-called Finnish or NHL. Result? Clubs have been switching the rink size. Within a few seasons, there will be no classic IIHF rink size in the KHL.

And I could go on ...

The point is that the league has been working on things/issues which have a real reason for doing so. There is some background for their work because the league has much more information on real things happening than ordinary fans or even journalists. They do not work on things which have zero chance to happen. As simple as that.

Now, if all statements regarding expansion are fakes, there have been no talks with anybody. Could anybody explain to me why the league created a working group to consider the league´s schedule for the future? The following schedule, less travelling, more games in regions, no travelling from Europe to the Far East in the regular season, dividing the league into three (or more) groups - Europe, Central Russia, Far East-Asia.

So, they have nothing to do in the league, so they are working on unrealistic scenarios? Or they have some inside information and based on this info, they are working on certain scenarios? It is up to you to decide.

But you do realise that all of those decisions and initiatives are created, or at the very least can be applied to, the league very much irrespective of expansion or not, right? I mean you make it sound like anything the league does is with an eye on expansion thats definetly going to happen, because of all those statements and decisions. Right now (and has for a while) a european expansion does look rather unrealistic, because of financial, geopolitical and health reasons. But at the same time, is it so unrealistic to think that the KHL does all of these things for its own benefit as a league in its current shape or form?

A coherent league strategy is something every league should adopt, otherwise you run the risk of destroying your product, such as keeping non-viable markets on constant life support or you become a revolving door for new teams, which are accepted and potentially fold a few weeks into the season. I know there was an element of attracting more non-russian teams to the league and just ahve a very strong Russian core, but if that was the only scenario in the strategy, it wouldnt have been a very good one and we'd have long seen a revised one.

The Salary Cap was in the current KHLs best interest, to drum up some more competitiveness in the league and limit the unlimited spending of SKA and CSKA. Kind of like the effect that the Salary Cap in the NHL was supposed to bring in: A limit on Toronto and New York throwing money at will at players to the disadvantage of the rest of the league (whether the money is well spent is a different issue) and to increase the competitiveness in the league (again, whether that'll work in practice is a different story).

The world Games are a nice gimmick, but its not like it actually needs a lot of long nights at the negotiating table to get a theoretic framework hushed out between federations, and countries. If you are not planning on involving anyone local, but the owner of the arena, all you need to do is book the slots in the event schedule with the arena. Especially if the KHL doesnt involve the local clubs, like playing against Zurich or Vienna as part of it, but rather uses them as "destination regular season games" only. Any difficulty met by getting the local clubs and federations to agree to host one off games are out of the KHLs own volition (as it would be for the NHL if they chose to do so for the global series), because an arena owner/promoter is looking to fill as many dates as possible in a given year (hence why many big buildings like the idea of anchor tenants which block book a certain amount of dates each year) and will actively work with you to find a date that suits them and you. They probably also try and sell you their mother.

The switch in ice size is an interesting one actually. It certainly wasnt a switch to court European teams into joining or in the interest of the russian national team, since the majority of european leagues and World tournaments are played on Olympic ice sheets. So the switch was to make league play faster and more exciting, which should be in the interest of the league, cause who doesnt like to see super skilled make highlight reel plays in small spaces?

The steering group to divide the league in three groups? Yeah, maybe its a hail mary to make the KHL attractive for a European expansion to Paris, London, Hamburg. Or maybe, the KHL has realised that the travel distances are not all that sustainable for teams in the far east of the country. Russia is a big place and playing in the KHL costs a lot of money and time travelling, which disproportionately disadvantages the financially weak and geographically isolated teams. I personally see it as toool to ease travel and make playing in the far east more attractive to some non Russian or Kazakh players,m which also can increase the perceived parity a little. If it is indeed solely an expansion tool, to me it would make more sense as a realignment aimed at a far east expansion. A European division would already be crowded. There isnt much East of Novosibirsk (2 teams in fact). Without Admiral, Amur and Kunlun dont have any "close" away games bar each other and have to travel as far as Ufa for divisional games. Im sure they'd both like some shorter road trips. The players certainly would.

Maybe its worth considering that just because the KHL is starting a new initiative for its own benefit, it doesnt automatically needs to have anything to do with expansion (to Europe) but could just be an initiative to stabilise and grow the quality of the league (rather than size).

 

[vorky]

Below I will reply to some of your points.

The world Games are a nice gimmick, but its not like it actually needs a lot of long nights at the negotiating table to get a theoretic framework hushed out between federations, and countries. If you are not planning on involving anyone local, but the owner of the arena, all you need to do is book the slots in the event schedule with the arena. Especially if the KHL doesnt involve the local clubs, like playing against Zurich or Vienna as part of it, but rather uses them as "destination regular season games" only. Any difficulty met by getting the local clubs and federations to agree to host one off games are out of the KHLs own volition (as it would be for the NHL if they chose to do so for the global series), because an arena owner/promoter is looking to fill as many dates as possible in a given year (hence why many big buildings like the idea of anchor tenants which block book a certain amount of dates each year) and will actively work with you to find a date that suits them and you. They probably also try and sell you their mother.

The KHL has been working with the national hockey federations, clubs & venues where the KHL World Games take place.

The steering group to divide the league in three groups? Yeah, maybe its a hail mary to make the KHL attractive for a European expansion to Paris, London, Hamburg. Or maybe, the KHL has realised that the travel distances are not all that sustainable for teams in the far east of the country. Russia is a big place and playing in the KHL costs a lot of money and time travelling, which disproportionately disadvantages the financially weak and geographically isolated teams. I personally see it as toool to ease travel and make playing in the far east more attractive to some non Russian or Kazakh players,m which also can increase the perceived parity a little. If it is indeed solely an expansion tool, to me it would make more sense as a realignment aimed at a far east expansion. A European division would already be crowded. There isnt much East of Novosibirsk (2 teams in fact). Without Admiral, Amur and Kunlun dont have any "close" away games bar each other and have to travel as far as Ufa for divisional games. Im sure they'd both like some shorter road trips. The players certainly would.

Some valid points. Just noting that we need to take into account the timing & context of the statement I used.

Maybe its worth considering that just because the KHL is starting a new initiative for its own benefit, it doesnt automatically needs to have anything to do with expansion (to Europe) but could just be an initiative to stabilise and grow the quality of the league (rather than size).

That is your opinion/conclusion on the topic.

 

[KTl]

Now, if all statements regarding expansion are fakes, there have been no talks with anybody.

Nobody is saying there weren't talks. However, non of this talks lead to anything and all newer expansions plans to the west - that we know of, are highly unrealistic.

Could anybody explain to me why the league created a working group to consider the league´s schedule for the future? The following schedule, less travelling, more games in regions, no travelling from Europe to the Far East in the regular season, dividing the league into three (or more) groups - Europe, Central Russia, Far East-Asia.

Interesting plans. Very different compared with to old United Hockey Europe plan, which had a Central European and a Scandinavian division. Sounds like expansion to the East is more on the plate.

The KHL has been testing the markets for potential expansion with the KHL World Games.

And that is a good strategy.

I will not talk about other non-hockey factors which are known to everyone.

And there could be a lot said about the recent developments in Russian-European relationships. But we don't want to get political on this forum.

 

[vorky]

Nobody is saying there weren't talks. However, non of this talks lead to anything and all newer expansions plans to the west - that we know of, are highly unrealistic.

"that we know of" is a key message in your statement.

Interesting plans. Very different compared with to old United Hockey Europe plan, which had a Central European and a Scandinavian division. Sounds like expansion to the East is more on the plate.

The league has been considering various scenarios, not just those described in my previous posts. All scenarios work with a situation of possible European & Asian expansion. Likely the league has a list of clubs they have been negotiating with.

And that is a good strategy.

Good you say it.

And there could be a lot said about the recent developments in Russian-European relationships. But we don't want to get political on this forum.

Yeah, it is not a political board.

 

[MaxHeadroom]

I dont know if you follow the shorthanded news podcast on German Ice Hockey, but they had a very interesting episode a few months back when they were discussing the woes of the Krefeld Pinguine, which basically stated that none of the teams in the DEL make any money and that their budgets are not covered by capital. Essentially private entities (e.g. Hopp, Anschutz, formerly Ponomarew, Sabo, much like the KHL actually) are propping up the clubs and they are just about breaking even. Attendance is a key contributor to get close to even and you can currently see how fragile the leagues finances are, because none of the DEL clubs will survive if they don't have attendance in the stands, because the cost of running a team, in a league where over 75-80% of trips are covered by bus journeys and overnight stays are in most cases not required, that no financier in Germany would be willing to take a € 8,000,000 loss (which was the figure of the Sabo fronted in Nuremberg if I remember correctly). A jump to the KHL would come at a huge increase in running cost, mainly for travel every game will be a 4+-hour fly-away trip at the least.
Its also very likely that attendances will drop very quickly, after the novelty factor wears off, because of the increased number of weekday games (DEL makes its attendance figures because it plays on the weekends), and the loss of local rivalries (example Dusseldorf, Cologne, Krefeld) for which tickets generally sell better.
The DEL is littered with examples of owners and financiers being sick of losing the "moderate amount of money that they are, so I doubt there is much will to lose more. Hanover collapsed because the owner of the team were sick of losing money, and Krefeld was close to the same fate a few short weeks ago, although, admittedly the situation is more complicated because no one wanted to deal with Ponomarew. Duisburg collapsed badly when the financier (Ralf Pape) pulled out, and the situation has been so bad ever since that he has had to come in twice more for short periods of time to bail the club out and keep it alive.
Duesseldorf nearly collapsed when Metro pulled out and were only just saved by fan support and some local investors, something that Hamburg wasnt able to pull off when AEG decided to give up the Freezers. And Thomas Sabo announced last year that he was tired of propping up Nuremberg as its de facto only source of money and they have had to find new investors as well.
The whole corona crisis makes the whole KHL in Germany though even less likely.

Yes, that is the sad state of hockey here in Germany. Ice hockey is in a difficult position - on one hand, there is a certain interest in the sport and most stadiums are filled quite well, but at the same time the teams find it difficult to finance themselves without the help of big investors because in soccer-crazy Germany, the media care only little about hockey and it's considered a minority sport overall. At lest in terms of financing, German team are very similar to KHL and NHL teams in that regard as they need some very rich investors to be financially stable. The top teams at the moment, Mannheim and Munich, do well thanks to SAP and Red Bull, respectively, Berlin ist mostly kept alive by Anschutz, but they reduced their investments in recent years, resulting in mediocre results on the ice and declining attendance, Wolfsburg has Volkswagen, and so on. With that said, a KHL team in Germany might make sense, but would of course need especially much money to be able to compete. The top teams in Germany have budgets of 8-12m€, but in the KHL you need more like €20m to be able to compete. At the moment I don't see a German team that would fit. Maybe establishing a new team might work, it did work in Hamburg until AEG pulled the plug. But where should it be? Frankfurt? They're only second league now but plan to return to the DEL, plus Frankfurt is financially very viable and lies in the middle of Germany, so it could attract people from all over the country. Maybe a second team in Berlin? Having two top teams in Berlin has worked in the past, and I'd love to see the Preussen return to former glory. Hannover? The Scorpions were rumored to be interested in joining the KHL about ten years ago, but after folding in the DEL will have it difficult to return to the first league, plus the Indians have always been considered the more popular club in Hannover. Düsseldorf was also rumored for some time, but losing the derbies against cologne and Krefeld would be a huge financial risk for them, if not to say financial suicide. Hamburg? Would certainly have potential considering that the Freezers always had good crowds despite mostly mediocre results, so I'd like to see Hamburg have a top team again, but the Crocodiles will have it difficult to fill the gap the Freezers left behind. To make a long story short, the KHL has potential here, but at the moment I don't see a club that would be the right fit. Plus the DEL has improved in recent years, and the emergence of Kahun and Draisaitl combinded with Olympic silver have helped German hockey to (re)gain popularity, and for German hockey it makes more sense to grow a good domestic product that is the DEL, and losing a DEL team to the KHL would only weaken the DEL.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Yes, that is the sad state of hockey here in Germany. Ice hockey is in a difficult position - on one hand, there is a certain interest in the sport and most stadiums are filled quite well, but at the same time the teams find it difficult to finance themselves without the help of big investors because in soccer-crazy Germany, the media care only little about hockey and it's considered a minority sport overall. At lest in terms of financing, German team are very similar to KHL and NHL teams in that regard as they need some very rich investors to be financially stable. The top teams at the moment, Mannheim and Munich, do well thanks to SAP and Red Bull, respectively, Berlin ist mostly kept alive by Anschutz, but they reduced their investments in recent years, resulting in mediocre results on the ice and declining attendance, Wolfsburg has Volkswagen, and so on. With that said, a KHL team in Germany might make sense, but would of course need especially much money to be able to compete. The top teams in Germany have budgets of 8-12m€, but in the KHL you need more like €20m to be able to compete. At the moment I don't see a German team that would fit. Maybe establishing a new team might work, it did work in Hamburg until AEG pulled the plug. But where should it be? Frankfurt? They're only second league now but plan to return to the DEL, plus Frankfurt is financially very viable and lies in the middle of Germany, so it could attract people from all over the country. Maybe a second team in Berlin? Having two top teams in Berlin has worked in the past, and I'd love to see the Preussen return to former glory. Hannover? The Scorpions were rumored to be interested in joining the KHL about ten years ago, but after folding in the DEL will have it difficult to return to the first league, plus the Indians have always been considered the more popular club in Hannover. Düsseldorf was also rumored for some time, but losing the derbies against cologne and Krefeld would be a huge financial risk for them, if not to say financial suicide. Hamburg? Would certainly have potential considering that the Freezers always had good crowds despite mostly mediocre results, so I'd like to see Hamburg have a top team again, but the Crocodiles will have it difficult to fill the gap the Freezers left behind. To make a long story short, the KHL has potential here, but at the moment I don't see a club that would be the right fit. Plus the DEL has improved in recent years, and the emergence of Kahun and Draisaitl combinded with Olympic silver have helped German hockey to (re)gain popularity, and for German hockey it makes more sense to grow a good domestic product that is the DEL, and losing a DEL team to the KHL would only weaken the DEL.

All good points, but KHL salary cap is ~€10mm this year. As always, travel costs an add another €3-4mm to the budget and the TV side of things isn’t nearly enough to make up the difference.

 

[Albatros]

Also the KHL in itself does nothing to raise interest in hockey in Germany, at most it would attract some within the Russian diaspora who currently have little interest in attending DEL games.

 

[vorky]

All good points, but KHL salary cap is ~€10mm this year. As always, travel costs an add another €3-4mm to the budget and the TV side of things isn’t nearly enough to make up the difference.

Do not want to be nitpicking... the KHL salary cap is ~€10-11mm without bonuses so in reality, the club’s payroll fund should be around ~€15-16mm, plus exemptions. I am using today´s exchange rate, in rubles it is 900mm (salary cap) & 1.26b (with bonuses).

All in all, your statement is valid. If a German club wanted to be a solid/top team on Jokerit´s level, the club would need a very similar budget. Guessing, it is around ~€15-20mm.

 

[vorky]

Yes, that is the sad state of hockey here in Germany. Ice hockey is in a difficult position - on one hand, there is a certain interest in the sport and most stadiums are filled quite well, but at the same time the teams find it difficult to finance themselves without the help of big investors because in soccer-crazy Germany, the media care only little about hockey and it's considered a minority sport overall. At lest in terms of financing, German team are very similar to KHL and NHL teams in that regard as they need some very rich investors to be financially stable. The top teams at the moment, Mannheim and Munich, do well thanks to SAP and Red Bull, respectively, Berlin ist mostly kept alive by Anschutz, but they reduced their investments in recent years, resulting in mediocre results on the ice and declining attendance, Wolfsburg has Volkswagen, and so on. With that said, a KHL team in Germany might make sense, but would of course need especially much money to be able to compete. The top teams in Germany have budgets of 8-12m€, but in the KHL you need more like €20m to be able to compete. At the moment I don't see a German team that would fit. Maybe establishing a new team might work, it did work in Hamburg until AEG pulled the plug. But where should it be? Frankfurt? They're only second league now but plan to return to the DEL, plus Frankfurt is financially very viable and lies in the middle of Germany, so it could attract people from all over the country. Maybe a second team in Berlin? Having two top teams in Berlin has worked in the past, and I'd love to see the Preussen return to former glory. Hannover? The Scorpions were rumored to be interested in joining the KHL about ten years ago, but after folding in the DEL will have it difficult to return to the first league, plus the Indians have always been considered the more popular club in Hannover. Düsseldorf was also rumored for some time, but losing the derbies against cologne and Krefeld would be a huge financial risk for them, if not to say financial suicide. Hamburg? Would certainly have potential considering that the Freezers always had good crowds despite mostly mediocre results, so I'd like to see Hamburg have a top team again, but the Crocodiles will have it difficult to fill the gap the Freezers left behind. To make a long story short, the KHL has potential here, but at the moment I don't see a club that would be the right fit. Plus the DEL has improved in recent years, and the emergence of Kahun and Draisaitl combinded with Olympic silver have helped German hockey to (re)gain popularity, and for German hockey it makes more sense to grow a good domestic product that is the DEL, and losing a DEL team to the KHL would only weaken the DEL.

Very good & reasonable post.

You identified hockey in Germany as a minority sport, the media interest is not as big as with football. Here I can give you an example from the KHL in Slovakia & Czech rep. I have no idea if this experience could be translated into Germany.

Of course, pro-America oriented media had their biased opinion on the KHL. But, even they could not ignore Slovan & Lev Praha. There were many articles about those teams, perhaps more than about the Slovak league. When both teams played each other, the media & fans went crazy for weeks before & after a game. Especially after Chara hit on Šatan.



It is confirmed that the KHL/FHR negotiating with DEB/German side about hosting the KHL World Games in Germany. The purpose is to show the KHL game to Germany, of course. If all goes well, they would like to organise a game between Germany & Russia followed by a KHL game or so.

Another rumour is that Hamburg is among candidates for the KHL World Games. But Reindl said that Hamburg is just one of the candidates.

Of course, all news are from pre-virus period. But definitely, they are still working on it.

The message of your post is "the KHL has potential here"

 

[Albatros]

Having Russian teams play occasional games in Germany indeed makes a lot more sense than a German KHL team, as the target demographic identifies more with the Russian teams to start with.

 

[Section Netherlands]

I imagine World Games in Germany would attract a lot of people in the surrounding countries. In Sweden it is common to go to Berlin/Hamburg for a weekend. I would, and many people with interest in hockey here, would pay money to see the top KHL teams in one of those cities.

 

[Jussi]

I imagine World Games in Germany would attract a lot of people in the surrounding countries. In Sweden it is common to go to Berlin/Hamburg for a weekend. I would, and many people with interest in hockey here, would pay money to see the top KHL teams in one of those cities.

Swedes care infinitely more about their own teams. There's been numerous polls to verify that. They're not going to travel to Germany to watch KHL teams. NHL teams they might.

 

[Exarz]

I imagine World Games in Germany would attract a lot of people in the surrounding countries. In Sweden it is common to go to Berlin/Hamburg for a weekend. I would, and many people with interest in hockey here, would pay money to see the top KHL teams in one of those cities.

Why would people with interest in hockey go to Berlin or Hamburg to watch hockey when they can literally catch the ferry or flight to either Helsinki or Riga to watch the same quality of hockey in a shorter distance. People going to Germany for a weekend are more likely to watch Bundesliga, or if people are hockey interested might watch DEL. Having a KHL team in Germany would not really increase the interest.