KHL Expansion Part VIII

[vorky]

@BarclayDonaldson

I just describe the process. Jokerit happened, Servette did not. That is just fine, I am interested in the process. Results remain to be seen as with the Nord Stream II - the most important thing is that the project will be done, later but done. The same with the KHL, there is a reason for all things I described. It is not happening just for no reason. You know.

 

[SoundAndFury]

This discussion seemed somewhat relevant 6-7 years ago.

Now, it's laughable to even speculate about all these plans of the great expansion when the list of KHL European expansion teams that already busted is twice as long as one of those still there.

 

[alko]

1.Fasel joining the KHL
2.the US Presidential elections in 2020

1. Didnt Fasel said, he want to stay in IIHF?

2. How are elections in USA connected to KHL Expansion?

 

[vorky]

1. Didnt Fasel said, he want to stay in IIHF?

2. How are elections in USA connected to KHL Expansion?

1. He said that in the current situation he would not be against the idea of staying for one more year in the IIHF. It just means the plans with the KHL are postponed.

And btw, that is a thing which is not understood by some posters here. The methods, timing, actors etc might be modified within time, but the main goal remains the same.

2. It is not a political board so we can not discuss here all details regarding the politics.

 

[mkev400]

1. He said that in the current situation he would not be against the idea of staying for one more year in the IIHF. It just means the plans with the KHL are postponed.

And btw, that is a thing which is not understood by some posters here. The methods, timing, actors etc might be modified within time, but the main goal remains the same.

Isnt the IIHF Presidents post an elected position with a four year term at each election? I doubt it'll be as easy as him saying "Im staying on for one more year, just cause I dont want to leave yet". He either leaves at the end of his term this year or he gets re-elected for another 4 years, which is unlikely, since he technically can't run again, since there is an age limit on the IIHF council of 70 years, which Fasel has reached. And that doesnt even account for the new term limit of 12 years that comes into force with the end of Fasels tenure this year.

2. It is not a political board so we can not discuss here all details regarding the politics.

To be fair, you opened that particular door by mentioning it. Similarly the point about the German elections. I find the claim that elections in any one country that currently isnt involved in the league is going to be a make or break situation for an expansion, that currently isnt on the table. Without an actual argument backing the claim up, i feel it has the same credibility as me saying the KHL is going to expand to LA because Kim Kardashian bought property in Moscow...

As SoundAndFury said, the discussion about a western expansion was relevant 6 years ago. Since then the Western expansion has died on the hills of Prague, Bratislava and Zagreb. There isn't all that much desire for an expansion in central Europe, because otherwise it would have happened by now, instead of continued lukewarm rumors about Reading, London, Paris, Monaco and Switzerland, just because there may or may not be some rich Russian living there.
In an earlier post you specifically mentioned the World Games as some foreshadowing measure of expansion, because they played in Vienna and Zurich. As you pointed out yourself, ZSC Lions made a statement that they were not involved one bit in hosting that game. But if it was a tool to drive expansion, why play in a city where the local team isn't interested in the league and not in Lausanne instead, since they were name dropped (by you) as a candidate? To me the World Games served more as a KHL copy of the NHL Global Series, to expand viewer/fan interest in the league. Though with Bratislava being gone from the league, any newly added fandom in Austria likely vanished again. And the pandemic and its huge economic impact (10-15% forecast shrinkage in Germany alone), nevermind any quarantine and travel restrictions (see Kunlun playing their last few "home games" somewhere in Russia) I would say any expansion is off the table for now and the KHL and Fasel might be better off trying to solidify the finances (and maybe reduce reliance on government/state money) of the leagues existing teams, otherwise the whole league could collapse. Sure Vladivostok has already withdrawn from the league for that very reason and none of the recently contracted teams, such as Novokuznetsk or Lada have the finances to fill the spot, nevermind any other VHL team, where arena size could be another rate limiting factor. At the VHL level we have already seen Tashkent officially withdrawing from the league, officially claiming uncertainty regarding travel restrictions, though I suppose public money being redirected from Humo to other fields like Medical Care may have been a huge factor there.

 

[vorky]

Fasel & the IIHF, my source is the official website of the organisation, here. I will quote:

"The second is the IIHF Semi-Annual Congress, which traditionally takes place in September. The Semi-Annual Congress this year was also exceptional in that it was to be an election Congress where the IIHF’s MNAs would choose a new president and Council.

However, due to the likely inability of the IIHF and its MNAs to travel the IIHF Semi-Annual Congress as originally planned in St. Petersburg, Russia in late September 2020, the IIHF Council will propose a one-year extension to its existing mandate, with new elections to take place during the 2021 IIHF Semi-Annual Congress (date TBD)."

I read Fasel´s interviews saying it would not be fair from him to leave the IIHF right now when the IIHF & all sports world is facing the coronavirus effect. So - my understanding - he does not want to leave the ship at the most difficult time.

 

[KTl]

If KHL officials are currently working on short-term western expansion, they have learned nothing from the last couple of years. World Games and similar activities could help to build the KHL brand in Europe and to make the league interesting for western fans (and hence sponsors), and in the long-term lead to clubs wanting to join, instead of Russian money buying clubs for a Russian league.

 

[vorky]

If KHL officials are currently working on short-term western expansion, they have learned nothing from the last couple of years. World Games and similar activities could help to build the KHL brand in Europe and to make the league interesting for western fans (and hence sponsors), and in the long-term lead to clubs wanting to join, instead of Russian money buying clubs for a Russian league.

Where do you see "KHL officials are currently working on short-term western expansion"? Knowing you used "if" but still.

 

[vorky]

Here is a great example of bad reporting. That is why I sometimes criticise some posters for bad reporting about expansion. So, what does the reporter say?

”Of course, the European market is the most interesting for us. However, we can’t forget about Asia. To this day we have received interest from countries like France, Sweden, Germany, Great Britain, South Korea, and Japan.” the KHL executive revealed.

”KHL hosted ”World Games” last year when the best teams from the league played in Davos. We are trying to market our league so that it would raise interest for as many hockey fans as possible. We intended to introduce two new teams for the next season, expand into two new locations but then the Covid-19 pandemic started” Morozov added.

While Morozov said something different. I will quote the Russian version.

Европейский рынок, конечно, наиболее интересен, но и азиатский нельзя забывать. Мы давно работаем в этом ключе, интересны многие страны — Франция, Швеция, Германия, Великобритания, Корея, Япония. Мы работаем на всех этих направлениях. КХЛ также проводила в прошлом сезоне «КХЛ World Games», наши топовые команды играли в Давосе. Мы показываем Лигу так, чтобы это было привлекательно максимальному количеству зрителей, на следующий сезон планировали открыть для себя еще два новых места, но вмешалась пандемия.

The reporter showed either his poor Russian or misunderstanding of the league. Morozov means by "two new locations" the two new cities/countries for hosting the KHL World Games. He did not say the KHL planned to expand with two new clubs for the next season. But, ordinary fans read this reporting in the English media and since now they will claim to us that the KHL planned to expand with two new clubs for the next season. Of course, it is not true.

The same applies to other news. Bad media reporting results in a misunderstanding of fans.

 

[Albatros]

More importantly it's not true that there's any significant interest for a KHL team in those countries.

 

[rohky]

Will KHL ever expand to include teams from outside the former USSR?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Will KHL ever expand to include teams from outside the former USSR?

They already have done this. Jokerit and Kunlun.

They tried also with two teams in Czech, one in Slovakia, and one in Croatia.

 

[Albatros]

Poprad was really just a placeholder for a Czech team, but still two Slovak, one Czech.

 

[chlfan20]

I think a Czech team would do well. Not sure where but they do love hockey. Has to be city and ownership group with lots of $$

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

I think a Czech team would do well. Not sure where but they do love hockey. Has to be city and ownership group with lots of $$

Just can’t really be done without a massive subsidy. They averaged 7161 their 1st season and from what I remember about ticket prices, they couldn’t even gross half what the current salary cap is. Sponsors could get you the other half, but travel costs would keep you in the red all the time.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I think a Czech team would do well. Not sure where but they do love hockey. Has to be city and ownership group with lots of $$

A Czech team was already tried. They were the arguably the best non-NHL club in the world, were in Prague which has a big and hockey-loving population, and had several major sponsors. They could not have been set up better for success.

And you know what happened? They lasted two years and didn't even have the best average attendance for Prague teams. It just goes to show how Europeans care a lot more about playing teams in their own country than random Russian teams many thousand kilometers away. The sponsors left immediately after they saw how much money they would be losing indefinitely.

So you may think a Czech team would do well, but you are incredibly wrong.

 

[SoundAndFury]

People in North America just don't seem to understand what sports in Europe are all about. Unless the KHL can constantly be clearly above the level of local leagues (which it definitely cannot) it will never break into established markets. And even if it could, it needs something to attract existing big teams (like Jokerit) to join it. And again, there is 0 incentive.

 

[MaxHeadroom]

People in North America just don't seem to understand what sports in Europe are all about. Unless the KHL can constantly be clearly above the level of local leagues (which it definitely cannot) it will never break into established markets. And even if it could, it needs something to attract existing big teams (like Jokerit) to join it. And again, there is 0 incentive.

That is basically true, but can't be said for everyone everywhere. They succeeded in breaking into an existing non-Eastern European market with Jokerit, and with the right concept, that might work in other traditional markets as well. Yes, it failed in Prague because it was not enough to just build a new club from scratch that isn't appreciated by fans, but letting existing clubs join can work. Here in Germany, there have been rumors going on for years whether a German team would join, with possible teams including Hanover, Düsseldorf, Berlin and Leipzig, and there is a certain interest among German hockey fans, because while hockey is popular in Germany, the top-tier league is rather poor and the KHL would be an improvement. Plus, bigger countries like Germany have more than one big town where hockey can work, unlike Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia, where the top club basically is almost all the hockey in the country with little competition. Meaning that the German league would not suffer as much when losing a team to the KHL as in smaller countries.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

That is basically true, but can't be said for everyone everywhere. They succeeded in breaking into an existing non-Eastern European market with Jokerit, and with the right concept, that might work in other traditional markets as well. Yes, it failed in Prague because it was not enough to just build a new club from scratch that isn't appreciated by fans, but letting existing clubs join can work. Here in Germany, there have been rumors going on for years whether a German team would join, with possible teams including Hanover, Düsseldorf, Berlin and Leipzig, and there is a certain interest among German hockey fans, because while hockey is popular in Germany, the top-tier league is rather poor and the KHL would be an improvement. Plus, bigger countries like Germany have more than one big town where hockey can work, unlike Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia, where the top club basically is almost all the hockey in the country with little competition. Meaning that the German league would not suffer as much when losing a team to the KHL as in smaller countries.

Is Jokerit really successful though? They're losing 10 million euro every season, have been called a burden by the owner he wouldn't wish upon his son, and have had consistently declining attendance. That is more of a warning sign to potential European KHL owners than a success.

Germany has seen rumors for over a decade. And none of them have even come close to happening. Thinking it will change soon is what is called a gambler's fallacy. The fact it hasn't happened yet is actually evidence it is more likely to not happen rather than happen.

Germans were smart enough to wait and see, and the results were obvious: it is far better to stay the course, continue slowly improving the domestic league over time while staying financially solvent, and avoid the dozens of KHL warning signs. An increase in quality of play with no financial stability is not a worthy trade for lesser yet continuously improving quality and much more financial stability.

 

[Jussi]

That is basically true, but can't be said for everyone everywhere. They succeeded in breaking into an existing non-Eastern European market with Jokerit, and with the right concept, that might work in other traditional markets as well. Yes, it failed in Prague because it was not enough to just build a new club from scratch that isn't appreciated by fans, but letting existing clubs join can work. Here in Germany, there have been rumors going on for years whether a German team would join, with possible teams including Hanover, Düsseldorf, Berlin and Leipzig, and there is a certain interest among German hockey fans, because while hockey is popular in Germany, the top-tier league is rather poor and the KHL would be an improvement. Plus, bigger countries like Germany have more than one big town where hockey can work, unlike Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia, where the top club basically is almost all the hockey in the country with little competition. Meaning that the German league would not suffer as much when losing a team to the KHL as in smaller countries.

Eh..."success"... It's opened the eyes of Finnish hockey fans and media to how joining the league would ruin their club.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

People in North America just don't seem to understand what sports in Europe are all about. Unless the KHL can constantly be clearly above the level of local leagues (which it definitely cannot) it will never break into established markets. And even if it could, it needs something to attract existing big teams (like Jokerit) to join it. And again, there is 0 incentive.

Gee, I’m from NA and I realize how Eurosport’s works: parochialism and tradition. Not saying KHL is the answer, but in order to grow the game, adjustments will have to be made.

It can be done organically and be done better than CHL or KHL.

 

[alko]

KHL in Bratislava has potential.

There is at least 2 points, the owner must consider:
1. He will not make a profit. At least in first seasons. It could be seen as a advertising to make a splash in East markets.

2. He must sign quality Slovak players. Not all team, but the stars should be Slovak stars.

People were very interested in KHL, when Slovan wasn't so shitty as it was in their last 2 seasons. Full stadium, very good atmosphere, players like it very much.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

KHL in Bratislava has potential.

There is at least 2 points, the owner must consider:
1. He will not make a profit. At least in first seasons. It could be seen as a advertising to make a splash in East markets.

2. He must sign quality Slovak players. Not all team, but the stars should be Slovak stars.

People were very interested in KHL, when Slovan wasn't so shitty as it was in their last 2 seasons. Full stadium, very good atmosphere, players like it very much.

You do realize the KHL in Bratislava was already tried, right? For 7 years...

And it certainly won’t be tried again when the owner won’t make any money. That is why they rejoined the Slovak league. It isn’t going to happen again. There is absolutely zero potential. The KHL already blew their great chance for European expansion.

 

[SoundAndFury]

That is basically true, but can't be said for everyone everywhere. They succeeded in breaking into an existing non-Eastern European market with Jokerit, and with the right concept, that might work in other traditional markets as well. Yes, it failed in Prague because it was not enough to just build a new club from scratch that isn't appreciated by fans, but letting existing clubs join can work. Here in Germany, there have been rumors going on for years whether a German team would join, with possible teams including Hanover, Düsseldorf, Berlin and Leipzig, and there is a certain interest among German hockey fans, because while hockey is popular in Germany, the top-tier league is rather poor and the KHL would be an improvement. Plus, bigger countries like Germany have more than one big town where hockey can work, unlike Latvia, Slovakia or Croatia, where the top club basically is almost all the hockey in the country with little competition. Meaning that the German league would not suffer as much when losing a team to the KHL as in smaller countries.

Like others have already pointed out, Jokerit is hardly a success considering it's only in the league for as long somebody's willing to lose money to keep it there.

But furthermore, the quality of play isn't that much difference, top DEL teams would be a strong PO team in the KHL as well. At this point, DEL provided the KHL with numerous successful imports, Berglund and White, who weren't DEL superstars themselves, got Neftekhimik to the PO. So surely there is still a bit of a gap in terms of depth, quality of top and bottom teams (although this is partially achieved by KHL simply losing 1-2 of those per year) but at the same time, it isn't a major difference.

 

[alko]

You do realize the KHL in Bratislava was already tried, right? For 7 years...

And it certainly won’t be tried again when the owner won’t make any money. That is why they rejoined the Slovak league. It isn’t going to happen again. There is absolutely zero potential. The KHL already blew their great chance for European expansion.

I dont know where are you from, but i assume, certain not from Slovakia. Especially from Bratislava.

When Slovan had a good team, played in playoffs, the stadium was full. Tickets were sold in minutes.

Yeah, then the owner was in financial trouble, players were sad and therefore performance dropped significantly. At the end it was simple a trash.

But as i mentioned above. Build a good team, dont forget to pay their checks, fans will come.

And to the profit you mentioned. How many KHL teams make a profit to their owners?