KHL Expansion Part VIII

[Barclay Donaldson]

Dubai has to be the next expansion team. I imagine it won't be hard to bring players from the NHL there, plus it brings a good footprint for the game of hockey and what else I know is there are tons of Canadians who work out there that would love to watch hockey games there.

The KHL was created from the false logic that it won't be hard to attract NHL players. That has never been true and never will be true. The only players who leave the NHL aren't capable of playing in the NHL, save for Ilya Kovalchuk and maybe Pavel Datsyuk as the sole exceptions. Players actively leave the KHL for the NHL the first chance they get. The NHL takes in the high-quality KHL players like the Panarins, Gusevs, Kuznetsovs, Tarasenkos, Varlamovs, Francouzs, Bobrovskys, Vasilevskiys, Samsonovs. The KHL takes in the rejects. Dawes, O'Neill, Omark, Jaskin, Slepyshev, and Soshnikov are all top KHL players and they are NHL rejects.

They have an arena ready for hockey/basketball/many other events.

So does Paris. They don't have a hockey team. So does London. They don't have a hockey team. Does does Kaunas. They don't have a hockey team. So does Torino. They don't have a hockey team. So does Istanbul. They don't have a hockey team.

If your logic is "if they have an arena, they're going to get a KHL team" then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[filip85]

The KHL takes in the rejects. Dawes, O'Neill, Omark, Jaskin, Slepyshev, and Soshnikov are all top KHL players and they are NHL rejects.



.

So I assume Ryan Reaves is better and more skilled player than these ?!

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So I assume Ryan Reaves is better and more skilled player than these ?!

No and yes for many reasons.

No because Ryan Reaves is not a skilled player. He is not supposed to be a skilled player or play a skilled game. He is a grinder, a fighter and a locker room leader. Reaves plays 5-10 minutes per game. Reaves would not put up 50 points in a KHL season. He is not supposed to or good enough to. A team would not sign him to light up a game sheet. Shipachyov, Jaskin, and Omark are signed for that purpose.

Yes because Reaves has put up similar point totals in the NHL as Dmitri Jaskin, a Top 5 player in the KHL. Reaves is capable of making a NHL roster, unlike other Top 10 KHL players Nigel Dawes, Nikita Soshnikov, and Brian O'Neill before they left for the KHL. Reaves' is statistically more capable of playing and scoring in the NHL than some of the top KHL talent, however, it is likely because he is better adjusted to the North American style of play. That is something Soshnikov, Jaskin, and Shipachyov had well-documented issues with before returning (edit: I should cite my sources here before people get defensive: McPhee: Shipachyov demotion not about performance, St. Louis is the toughest place for an NHL prospect. Right, Dmitrij Jaskin? - TheHockeyNews)

 

[a mangy Meowth]

So I assume Ryan Reaves is better and more skilled player than these ?!

Well, I think he certainly adds more in 7-12 minutes of ice time than many of those players. The game is about more than just points.

 

[Rigafan]

Well hockey is now proved to work in the desert - Arizona and Vegas

 

[singlesliceofcheese]

Well hockey is now proved to work in the desert - Arizona and Vegas

Well, in Vegas at least. Arizona still has some ground to cover.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Well hockey is now proved to work in the desert - Arizona and Vegas

Hockey is working in Arizona? Pretax losses of $50 million per year, bottom of the league attendance numbers and only 4 playoff appearances this century is a funny way of hockey working in Arizona.

Vegas is successful because they are a new team and instant Stanley Cup contender. Wait for both the documented newness effect to wear off and the team to not be one of the best in the NHL and then you can determine if hockey can work in the desert.

Either way, saying that hockey is working in the desert and trying to apply it to another desert, I'm assuming you mean the feasibility of a KHL team in UAE, that shares absolutely zero cultural or socioeconomic traits is foolhardy. There is no logic in that.

 

[Rigafan]

Кандидатов на вступление в КХЛ в данный момент нет

Alexey Morozov KHL President spoken with Sport24

All expansion has been put on hold (obviously)

Asked about Dinamo Minsk and Riga
- Somebody has to be at the bottom of the table. Minsk bring a lot of 'traffic' (attendance and interest) to the league. They are both exciting teams for the league

Asked about Yugra, Lada, Novokusnetz joining the league
- They just don't have the financing at this time.

Also from Sport 24
Sibir owner shot himself in Moscow recently. This puts the future of the team in doubt. It sounds like he single handedly run the club and loved hockey. It's not clear if the sponsor will be as passionate and fund them as well has he did going forward.

 

[Albatros]

The economy in Russia is diving so deep right now that there's no way all existing organizations will survive.

 

[MilesNewton]

The economy in Russia is diving so deep right now that there's no way all existing organizations will survive.

How many teams do you believe that will be shut down?

 

[MilesNewton]

The KHL was created from the false logic that it won't be hard to attract NHL players. That has never been true and never will be true. The only players who leave the NHL aren't capable of playing in the NHL, save for Ilya Kovalchuk and maybe Pavel Datsyuk as the sole exceptions. Players actively leave the KHL for the NHL the first chance they get. The NHL takes in the high-quality KHL players like the Panarins, Gusevs, Kuznetsovs, Tarasenkos, Varlamovs, Francouzs, Bobrovskys, Vasilevskiys, Samsonovs. The KHL takes in the rejects. Dawes, O'Neill, Omark, Jaskin, Slepyshev, and Soshnikov are all top KHL players and they are NHL rejects.



So does Paris. They don't have a hockey team. So does London. They don't have a hockey team. Does does Kaunas. They don't have a hockey team. So does Torino. They don't have a hockey team. So does Istanbul. They don't have a hockey team.

If your logic is "if they have an arena, they're going to get a KHL team" then you're sadly mistaken.

So why play in the KHL then?

 

[MilesNewton]

No and yes for many reasons.

No because Ryan Reaves is not a skilled player. He is not supposed to be a skilled player or play a skilled game. He is a grinder, a fighter and a locker room leader. Reaves plays 5-10 minutes per game. Reaves would not put up 50 points in a KHL season. He is not supposed to or good enough to. A team would not sign him to light up a game sheet. Shipachyov, Jaskin, and Omark are signed for that purpose.

Yes because Reaves has put up similar point totals in the NHL as Dmitri Jaskin, a Top 5 player in the KHL. Reaves is capable of making a NHL roster, unlike other Top 10 KHL players Nigel Dawes, Nikita Soshnikov, and Brian O'Neill before they left for the KHL. Reaves' is statistically more capable of playing and scoring in the NHL than some of the top KHL talent, however, it is likely because he is better adjusted to the North American style of play. That is something Soshnikov, Jaskin, and Shipachyov had well-documented issues with before returning (edit: I should cite my sources here before people get defensive: McPhee: Shipachyov demotion not about performance, St. Louis is the toughest place for an NHL prospect. Right, Dmitrij Jaskin? - TheHockeyNews)

So Reaves has the potential to make more in the KHL this year than the NHL?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So why play in the KHL then?

What? Why play in the KHL? Are you serious? It is the second best league in the world in quality and pay, both of them better than the third-best options by a considerable margin. There are 690 players in the NHL. They are truly the best in the world. But there are extremely high quality players and teams that play outside of the league. I would easily pay a lot of money to watch Ilya Sorokin play hockey, despite him not being in the NHL (yet). The number of high-quality and highly talented hockey players in the world far exceeds 690. Not every team and not every player is going to be NHL-quality. What makes the NHL special is that there are only 31 (soon to be 32) teams and only the truly best in the world play there because of the limited number of spots available. But hockey exists outside of the league. A lot of it, like the KHL, is more fun for many people to watch and follow than the NHL.

So Reaves has the potential to make more in the KHL this year than the NHL?

No. Reaves does not have the potential to make more in the KHL this year than the NHL. He is a hard-hitting, fighting and aggressive leader with little offensive or defensive talent. KHL teams do not take many of these kinds of players, especially with their new salary cap in effect. If they were looking for someone who hits as hard and fights as much as Reaves, they can find probably find and pay one with more talent.

 

[MilesNewton]

Any information to pass along about the salary cap in the KHL?
Will the KHL be going after any free agents from other countries with the covid issue in the states?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Any information to pass along about the salary cap in the KHL?
Will the KHL be going after any free agents from other countries with the covid issue in the states?

Information about the salary cap. The hard salary cap will stay at 900 million rubles

The KHL will not be going after free agents from other countries. Firstly, there is a cavalcade of players jumping around between teams already because teams are having trouble building under the hard cap. They aren't going to add free agents from other countries when they can barely put a cap-compliant team together with players already in the league.

And other countries really aren't suffering COVID issues worse enough than Russia for players to leave their leagues for KHL to begin with.

 

[SoundAndFury]

How many teams do you believe that will be shut down?

2008 crisis was worse and none of the teams left due to the financial reasons so teams being shut down, especially the way league is nowadays, really isn't going to happen.

Also, just two more cents about Reaves, it's funny you picked him as an example since he is terribly overpaid even by NHL standards. Ryan Reaves is exactly the kind of player who wouldn't get paid more than he is anywhere, really.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

The KHL was created from the false logic that it won't be hard to attract NHL players. That has never been true and never will be true. The only players who leave the NHL aren't capable of playing in the NHL, save for Ilya Kovalchuk and maybe Pavel Datsyuk as the sole exceptions. Players actively leave the KHL for the NHL the first chance they get. The NHL takes in the high-quality KHL players like the Panarins, Gusevs, Kuznetsovs, Tarasenkos, Varlamovs, Francouzs, Bobrovskys, Vasilevskiys, Samsonovs. The KHL takes in the rejects. Dawes, O'Neill, Omark, Jaskin, Slepyshev, and Soshnikov are all top KHL players and they are NHL rejects.



So does Paris. They don't have a hockey team. So does London. They don't have a hockey team. Does does Kaunas. They don't have a hockey team. So does Torino. They don't have a hockey team. So does Istanbul. They don't have a hockey team.

If your logic is "if they have an arena, they're going to get a KHL team" then you're sadly mistaken.

I think they should make a third pro hockey league that's mostly in Europe. One that consists of London, Paris, Stockholm, Oslo, Zurich, Vienna, Warsaw, Berlin, Hamberg, Budapest, Munich, Torino, Prague, Amsterdam, Prague, Brussels, Cologne, Copenhagen, Istanbul and maybe Rome.

Would include Finland but that's pretty much KHL territory.

If that were to happen the KHL would pretty much be mostly Russian hockey players or ones who can't crack the line-up in the EHL (Europian Hockey League, the one I made up). I think the EHL would be the second-best league in the world if it came true.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I think they should make a third pro hockey league that's mostly in Europe. One that consists of London, Paris, Stockholm, Oslo, Zurich, Vienna, Warsaw, Berlin, Hamberg, Budapest, Munich, Torino, Prague, Amsterdam, Prague, Brussels, Cologne, Copenhagen, Istanbul and maybe Rome.

Would include Finland but that's pretty much KHL territory.

If that were to happen the KHL would pretty much be mostly Russian hockey players or ones who can't crack the line-up in the EHL (Europian Hockey League, the one I made up). I think the EHL would be the second-best league in the world if it came true.

A trans-national league isn't going to happen. There's not enough interest, not enough arenas, not enough money. Very few European teams make any money. Non-KHL teams and European hockey fans have absolutely no interest in playing teams in other countries. This is seen in football, where non-domestic games are saved exclusively for the Champions League tournament games.

Finland is not "pretty much KHL territory." It is an independently-minded country with a league that is not subservient to the KHL in any manner.

This European hockey league would not be the second best league in the world because that league wouldn't make any money. The arenas aren't big enough, the teams as they are with the limited travel don't make money, absolutely none of what you have said has any rational base or validity.

 

[Albatros]

Non-KHL teams and European hockey fans have absolutely no interest in playing teams in other countries.

That's not strictly true as it's become fairly common to have teams from neighboring countries. The Austrian league has a team from four other countries as well for example. But this relies on close proximity and it would of course not be the same for a Dutch team to play in Slovakia.

 

[vorky]

I think they should make a third pro hockey league that's mostly in Europe. One that consists of London, Paris, Stockholm, Oslo, Zurich, Vienna, Warsaw, Berlin, Hamberg, Budapest, Munich, Torino, Prague, Amsterdam, Prague, Brussels, Cologne, Copenhagen, Istanbul and maybe Rome.

Would include Finland but that's pretty much KHL territory.

If that were to happen the KHL would pretty much be mostly Russian hockey players or ones who can't crack the line-up in the EHL (Europian Hockey League, the one I made up). I think the EHL would be the second-best league in the world if it came true.

So, I like talking issues which are supported by facts & deep analysis of the situation. Yours are not. So, let us look at Fasel´s words. He is coming to the KHL to become the league´s kind of envoy for expansion. Of course, all expansion talks are supervised by Timchenko.

"Sooner or later we will see one big international European hockey league. Perhaps it could be the Western Conference of the KHL," Fasel said late on Monday.

"Maybe we·ll see Swiss club joining KHL. Swiss Hockey Association is not against this idea, but their condition is if the club would come back to Swiss league system, the club would need to start from the lowest league. It hinders the clubs," the IIHF president added.

source

As you see Fasel talks the expansion to Europe, but it should be the part of the KHL. As correctly said by @BarclayDonaldson there is not a power in European hockey to launch a completely new strong league. Especially not now with the virus. The national European leagues & their clubs have big problems to survive.

Of course, the KHL expansion is put on hold due to the virus, but it will continue within a time. But not earlier than Fasel comes to the league. And I do not think that many clubs will join, I can imagine just a few teams because the KHL does not need them all.

Another key message of the Fasel´s words is that the Swiss hockey federation would allow one NL club to join the KHL. The same scenario as with Jokerit. The most ideal scenario would be a club from the French-part of the country now playing the NL.

So to sum up the key events for the expansion
1.Fasel joining the KHL
2.the US Presidential elections in 2020
3.the German elections to Bundestag in 2021
4.Nord Stream II construction
5. the situation with the coronavirus

Nobody has talked it earlier but I will remind you. The KHL VP Kobylyansky was responsible for daily hockey operations in the league while being responsible for expansion talks as well. He is not in the league anymore. Guessing the expansion talks are now, temporary, an obligation of the KHL VP Krasnov.

Another key point is as follows. People do not realise it, so some chaos with expansion talks in media. There are more powers in the league which have different goals, methods or interests. I will name just a few - Timchenko, Rotenberg, Medvedev, Krylov as core groups. You need to identify the source of the expansion rumour & find out what group is behind it. So, not everything published in the media is an initiative of the KHL as a league. But the good news in the end, only things coming true are those supported by Timchenko. So, if you want to know the real talks, just listen to Timchenko, Chernyshenko (even now), Morozov & Fasel.

 

[Albatros]

There's no plausible reason why any NL club would wish to join the KHL. At most a Russian oligarch could establish a new team in a town without existing competition.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I think they should make a third pro hockey league that's mostly in Europe. One that consists of London, Paris, Stockholm, Oslo, Zurich, Vienna, Warsaw, Berlin, Hamberg, Budapest, Munich, Torino, Prague, Amsterdam, Prague, Brussels, Cologne, Copenhagen, Istanbul and maybe Rome.

I think they should make a 3rd best soccer league in the world in Canada. Because why not. Am I right?

 

[vorky]

There's no plausible reason why any NL club would wish to join the KHL. At most a Russian oligarch could establish a new team in a town without existing competition.

That is just fine, that is your opinion & I am fine with it.

I just try to analyse the situation. All earlier rumours about European expansion, in concrete Switzerland, were not clear enough because there has always been two options - a classic club (Jokerit) or a brand-new club as you say. Now, Fasel started another rhetoric & there is a reason for it. Of course, a classic European club needs to have a backup plan in case of coming back. So, Fasel has voiced these worries. Helvetics-kind of the team would not have to worry about it.

Yes, there was a project of Helvetics. Guessing the KHL took a message - it can not work in Switzerland. So, they jumped to a classic NL club.

It is 100% that the KHL negotiated with Servette-Geneve & the talks went far, but not far enough to join. Of course, we know the reason for talks - Timchenko.

We do not know what is happening now. And what result it will bring.

Then, we follow the KHL World Games. There is a reason why the league choose Austria & Switzerland. And it is not because Bratislava is close enough to Vienna. And definitely not due to a nice nature in Swiss country.

So, Zurich showed another message, the club is not an ally in the story. I also can not see SC Bern joining the KHL. So, the French-part of the country looks more interesting. Btw, Geneve is located exactly there.

If I know, there are 3 clubs in the French part. Servette-Geneve, Lausanne & Fribourg. All have a Russian connection. I mentioned the Servette talks. Bykov works for Fribourg, but the club is not a KHL type of a club. Lausanne has a new venue & new owners (Czechs & Russian if I know).

Other NL clubs are too small or too traditional (ZSC, SCB).

So, I do not know how it all ends up. But I am sure there is something happening. Fasel has a mission in the KHL ahead of him. And it is not so difficult to guess the core points of the mission.

 

[Albatros]

Even if Fasel becomes KHL's very own Dr. Evil it's still hard to see what positive such move would bring to the clubs.

 

[vorky]

Even if Fasel becomes KHL's very own Dr. Evil it's still hard to see what positive such move would bring to the clubs.

It is up the clubs to decide. We will see. I just describe the process.