KHL Expansion part IV (Mod warning post 760)

[Peter25]

For me the Swiss expansion seems unrealistic for two reasons. One if that Swiss love their own league even more than Finns or Swedes love their own. Another is that Swiss actually have money to keep their players and run a competitive league. Swiss league has not been losing endless amount of talent to KHL like Liiga.

I would not try to expand the KHL to Switzerland because the project will eventually fail and even in best case be an economic blackhole like the Lev is sucking a lot of Russian money out for nothing. The Swiss league is too economically strong and too popular for the KHL to break into.

 

[vorky]

Yes, it seems to be utopia now, but character of russian nation is that Russians are defending itself for a long time to attack and achieve their goal in the end. Look at history. Yes, NLA is too economically strong for the KHL to break into. What if this is a goal, to bring economically strong NLA club to KHL? You need to make a deal with top 4 NLA clubs and here we are. Maybe unrealistic, but who knows.

I think that KHL have gave up the SWE expansion for now and its goal is to expand to Switzerland and Germany. All depends on Ukraine. Swiss people are not antirussian as Swedes, Germany has a big russian minority, the same the Swiss. Both countries are economically strong, good backround for hockey (yes, hockey not so popular, but who knows).

I know that NLA clubs have been searching new markets and it is not possible within Switzerland. Now there is CHL, but it will fail sooner or laters, it is not competition for biggest euro clubs, only for 2nd tiers.

 

[BlueBratislava]

Yes, it seems to be utopia now, but character of russian nation is that Russians are defending itself for a long time to attack and achieve their goal in the end. Look at history. Yes, NLA is too economically strong for the KHL to break into. What if this is a goal, to bring economically strong NLA club to KHL? You need to make a deal with top 4 NLA clubs and here we are. Maybe unrealistic, but who knows.

I think that KHL have gave up the SWE expansion for now and its goal is to expand to Switzerland and Germany. All depends on Ukraine. Swiss people are not antirussian as Swedes, Germany has a big russian minority, the same the Swiss. Both countries are economically strong, good backround for hockey (yes, hockey not so popular, but who knows).

I know that NLA clubs have been searching new markets and it is not possible within Switzerland. Now there is CHL, but it will fail sooner or laters, it is not competition for biggest euro clubs, only for 2nd tiers.

I think the people with money behind the KHL are starting to realize that an artificial/fake club like Lev is not the way to do it. The KHL needs an established team with tradition that is popular in the region, so the people will follow it to the new league. You can't expect people to come for a new team in a new league, because this is not North America-hockey fans think differently here. For example imgaine switching Lev Prague for Sparta, night and day of a difference. In Switzerland and Germany, the KHL can only pray for SC Bern and Eisbaren Berlin, especially Eisbaren because they are the former Dynamo Berlin from Eastern Germany. If any team from Germany joins the KHL, Eisbaren are the most predictable and logical choice. I think Vilnius, Milano, Gdansk, second Poprad etc. are all forgotten projects by now.

 

[Urbanskog]

Yes, SHL managers keep their best players from KHL clubs, but there is a trend of going best SHL players to NLA (Klasen, Holloway).

Jokerit has already signed Omark and Gunderson, both top-tier SHL players.

 

[Urbanskog]

I think Vilnius, Milano, Gdansk, second Poprad etc. are all forgotten projects by now.

If Milano was a forgotten project, why would they have decided to continue cooperation?

http://www.hockeymilano.it/main/?p=10417

 

[SoundAndFury]

Jokerit has already signed Omark and Gunderson, both top-tier SHL players.

No duh.

Omark wasn't really a SHL player recently though. But sure, Lee, Niskala, Thornberg and numerous others are also the examples, KHL gets some players from SHL but still, SHL is pretty good at securing their players to themselves. Player only leaves SHL if KHL/NLA club is convinced he's great fit and pays through the nose for him.

 

[bobbeaver]

If Milano was a forgotten project, why would they have decided to continue cooperation?

http://www.hockeymilano.it/main/?p=10417

hope something comes out of this and Italy really becomes a hockey nation (atleast north) and not just the alps part lol. Although Bolzano is doing excellent

 

[pecheq]

I think the people with money behind the KHL are starting to realize that an artificial/fake club like Lev is not the way to do it. The KHL needs an established team with tradition that is popular in the region, so the people will follow it to the new league. You can't expect people to come for a new team in a new league, because this is not North America-hockey fans think differently here. For example imgaine switching Lev Prague for Sparta, night and day of a difference. In Switzerland and Germany, the KHL can only pray for SC Bern and Eisbaren Berlin, especially Eisbaren because they are the former Dynamo Berlin from Eastern Germany. If any team from Germany joins the KHL, Eisbaren are the most predictable and logical choice. I think Vilnius, Milano, Gdansk, second Poprad etc. are all forgotten projects by now.

Fake? {Mod}

 

[Babula]

I think the people with money behind the KHL are starting to realize that an artificial/fake club like Lev is not the way to do it. The KHL needs an established team with tradition that is popular in the region, so the people will follow it to the new league. You can't expect people to come for a new team in a new league, because this is not North America-hockey fans think differently here. For example imgaine switching Lev Prague for Sparta, night and day of a difference.

Once again, if Sparta will join KHL, fans will boycott it. Never gonna happen. Czech league is not on same track as Slovakian league as far as I know.

 

[loppa*]

I don't think the KHL has a had a season yet where they didn't add a new club (and/or lose a club). From what I can tell it has been continious expansion. It almost seems like the league is in a race against itself to get to 30 or 32 teams even if it means using some of the existing ones as place holders to make up the numbers.

I mean you yourself are advocating dropping a club that just joined the league this past season. I can't think adding a club only to dump it a few seasons later is a good way to run a league. Why even bother with the expansion to begin with?

Your statement is contradictory. You say that they have had situations where they lost teams and then you say it's just continuous expansion. Can't be both!

I don't see anything as a race. If they wanted more teams they would have started out with more. They are in absolutely no rush.

Why bother expansion to begin with... well, because that's the slaughter cow ya know. You take it on, to make it look like a nice endeavor for other cows. Then you just bump off that one and take more plumper ones down the line. Simple.

For me the Swiss expansion seems unrealistic for two reasons. One if that Swiss love their own league even more than Finns or Swedes love their own. Another is that Swiss actually have money to keep their players and run a competitive league. Swiss league has not been losing endless amount of talent to KHL like Liiga.

I would not try to expand the KHL to Switzerland because the project will eventually fail and even in best case be an economic blackhole like the Lev is sucking a lot of Russian money out for nothing. The Swiss league is too economically strong and too popular for the KHL to break into.

Hum. I will refer you to a quote by Daniel Burnham. Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistency.

For example imgaine switching Lev Prague for Sparta, night and day of a difference. In Switzerland and Germany, the KHL can only pray for SC Bern and Eisbaren Berlin, especially Eisbaren because they are the former Dynamo Berlin from Eastern Germany. If any team from Germany joins the KHL, Eisbaren are the most predictable and logical choice. I think Vilnius, Milano, Gdansk, second Poprad etc. are all forgotten projects by now.

But that would be unfair to Slavia. Plus, Lev's logo is much nicer than Sparta's lame one.

I agree regarding Bern and Eisbaren.

Vilnius had a plan? News to me. Gdansk, I don't think that was serious. I don't think that Milan is a lost cause, yet...

 

[Rekin]

Eisbären Berlin by the way is run by Anschutz Entertainment Group, the same American corporation that owns the Los Angeles Kings as well. Although they don't literally own the Eisbären hockey club, they own both the O2 World arena and the DEL licence of the club. I doubt that they'd be interested in any KHL adventures and without them such a move is simply impossible.

 

[Ivan94]

Eisbären Berlin by the way is run by Anschutz Entertainment Group, the same American corporation that owns the Los Angeles Kings as well. Although they don't literally own the Eisbären hockey club, they own both the O2 World arena and the DEL licence of the club. I doubt that they'd be interested in any KHL adventures and without them such a move is simply impossible.

I'm sure, that Anschutz Entertainment Group would sell the arena, if they get a good offer. And Eisbären doesn't need the DEL licence to join KHL. AEG can sell the licence to a DEL2 team or let an other team play with their licence.

 

[fedfed]

Can Slovenia go the Medvescak route?

They have recently built a big arena, they'd have instant rivals coming in and they have more homebred players to use than Zagreb.

If they get good management like Medvescak, I think it could be a successful project.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Can Slovenia go the Medvescak route

Very small market and Slovenia isn't really a hockey country which makes this high risk/low reward situation.

 

[Sucro]

They have recently built a big arena, they'd have instant rivals coming in and they have more homebred players to use than Zagreb.

Hockey is pretty unwatchable on that arena from what I've heard, it's very basketball-specific. Moreover, there are no cooling machines installed, like in Arena Zagreb, so it would be too expansive to keep ice.

 

[Urbanskog]

Vilnius had a plan? News to me.

Yes, Vėtra Vilnius.

 

[fedfed]

Hockey is pretty unwatchable on that arena from what I've heard, it's very basketball-specific. Moreover, there are no cooling machines installed, like in Arena Zagreb, so it would be too expansive to keep ice.

Did they install some temporary coolers for national team games?

 

[BlueBratislava]

Fake? {Mod}

[MOD] We Slovaks remember what Lev did in Poprad and how much money they owed to many companies in Eastern Slovakia. And then they pretended they are a new club in Prague (although with some same employees) and Medvedev and the league just looked the other way.

If Milano was a forgotten project, why would they have decided to continue cooperation?

http://www.hockeymilano.it/main/?p=10417

I think that because except exhibition games against KHL teams, there was nothing significant done when it comes to budget, bigger arena, or some publicly announced plan. Best comparison is Jokerit this year.

Once again, if Sparta will join KHL, fans will boycott it. Never gonna happen. Czech league is not on same track as Slovakian league as far as I know.

That's your point of view, mine is different. Just like ours, your elite hockey players are aging and the younger generation does not produce good enough talent to replace them in quantity. Slovakia and Czech have very similar problems in hockey, the difference is that you are 2x bigger in population, have more Extraliga clubs and registered players so your problem is a bit dilluted and a bit harder to see at first sight. For example the Czech Extraliga was dominated by old players in points, that's one very obvious sign. The younger ones that are good after a couple good seasons pack up and leave to the KHL or NHL . And then its a closed circle with the older players.

 

[Babula]

That's your point of view, mine is different. Just like ours, your elite hockey players are aging and the younger generation does not produce good enough talent to replace them in quantity. Slovakia and Czech have very similar problems in hockey, the difference is that you are 2x bigger in population, have more Extraliga clubs and registered players so your problem is a bit dilluted and a bit harder to see at first sight. For example the Czech Extraliga was dominated by old players in points, that's one very obvious sign. The younger ones that are good after a couple good seasons pack up and leave to the KHL or NHL . And then its a closed circle with the older players.

That's right. But I cannot see your point in terms, that we do not want let Sparta go to the KHL ? That is what I meant by "not same track with Slovakian league"

 

[BlueBratislava]

That's right. But I cannot see your point in terms, that we do not want let Sparta go to the KHL ? That is what I meant by "not same track with Slovakian league"

I understand everything you wrote, but I don't understand how Sprotovni Holding wants to keep both Sparta and Lev on the same level without cannibalizing each other. For example in Czech media they revealed that Sparta is lowering the budget for next year. Since they are tied together, would you be OK with Sparta being the "B Team" next to Lev when it comes to players and money? I think it will be very interesting to watch the situation in Prague, because Slavia is having financial trouble, Sparta is down-sizing and there are strange reports about Lev's future. It will be interesting to see which one of the 3 comes out as the winner in the long run.

 

[Babula]

I understand everything you wrote, but I don't understand how Sprotovni Holding wants to keep both Sparta and Lev on the same level without cannibalizing each other. For example in Czech media they revealed that Sparta is lowering the budget for next year. Since they are tied together, would you be OK with Sparta being the "B Team" next to Lev when it comes to players and money? I think it will be very interesting to watch the situation in Prague, because Slavia is having financial trouble, Sparta is down-sizing and there are strange reports about Lev's future. It will be interesting to see which one of the 3 comes out as the winner in the long run.

You forced me to think about it more closely. Seriously, Thank you for that. To my surprise, I found out that I don't care about Sportovní Holding. My personal tip is that Lev will not continue in Praha one day. It's hard to think same about domestic clubs.

Only one thing I'm sure about, I am perfectly OK Sparta is "B team" since Czech league is just developmental for young players or has to be...

 

[Sucro]

Did they install some temporary coolers for national team games?

Yes, iirc, but we'd better have a native to make it clear about the arena.

 

[maxim84]

Can Slovenia go the Medvescak route?

They have recently built a big arena, they'd have instant rivals coming in and they have more homebred players to use than Zagreb.

If they get good management like Medvescak, I think it could be a successful project.

I don't think so...medvescak was even in ebel pretty much on top when we talk about attendence...that and arena pula "sold" us to khl, it is a fact and it was mentioned here a lot of times...if olimpija continued that trend...that role in ebel we could maybe talk about khl...

As for NT (if you use that as a reference of quality) i would compare it to croatia football team on WC 98 in france...who knows when a team like this years olympic squad will come again.... Slovenia is too small country to have regular success, altough they have quality coaching staff no doubt about that so the most we can expect is one or two players jumping out (again comparison to football like Luka Modric in croatia)

And last when we talk about finances...after the fall of yugoslavia croatia and slovenia took a whole different route when it comes to economy and big companies...in croatia 99% was sold to foreign investors or few rich people and slovenia kept most of their companies in goverment control...so now you have bad economics situation that country can't solve and there is very little foreign or private capital,there is even big dislike if some croatian company tries to buy slovenian, gorenje (home appliances factory lost it's significance outside slovenia) renault has a factory in novo mesto but can't be a sponsor because of chevrolet, mercator (groceries store) is bought by croatian company of the same type, in that case dislike for croatians was huge...so you would have to bring gazprom and pump a lot of money and it is really stupid to do so 70km from zagreb (at least i think that is russian point of view)
Anyway I hope slovenians will see medvescak as a friendly club in the future and look for slovenia-medvescak-khl club with money instead of slovenia-del-slovan like this year
That way you can play khl, be closer to home, sell yourself without problem to a bigger club if you have quality (medvescak-minsk rings a bell

 

[vorky]

Medvedev

VIF wants to join KHL, but we have applications from bigger hockey nations. Our priority is to have clubs from SWE, GER, SUI. Unfortunatelly national feds dont support clubs´ ambitions to join KHL.

He did not name clubs from SWE, SUI, GER, but said:

There is a situation like with Medvescak. Medvescak in KHL is not the same Medvescak which played EBEL, there are only a few players who stayed in team. There are similar "Medvescak type negotiations" with clubs from SUI, SWE, GER.

http://rsport.ru/interview/20140522/747674736.html

What does he mean by Medvescak type negotiations? I think that not new clubs like Lev....

 

[maxim84]

Medvedev



He did not name clubs from SWE, SUI, GER, but said:



http://rsport.ru/interview/20140522/747674736.html

What does he mean by Medvescak type negotiations? I think that not new clubs like Lev....

Maybe he means the story about financing..the russian money makes sure we can travel, and build the type of a team that will be on the border of playoffs... I'm sure russians won't give money so we could bring nhl players....if we want that kind of players we need to find our own sponsors.... If top 8 teams go to playoffs i am sure medvedev wants at least 4 russian teams, and doesn't care about the rest...if they come from croatia or switzerland or germany or poland....so basically he wants to make fight for those places more interesting... Ska and Dynamo Moscow will get to playoffs every year...