Keep the core together?

[Papa Cherry]

Keep the core. 4 strong forwards similar to how the Blackhawks had Sharp, Hossa, Toews, and Kane during their dynasty years. Obv the hawks had more heart than our current guys but that can change.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Is the core about getting points or winning? We'll see

 

[4thline]

We'll see how the team responds in the last 19 games though. This summer should be interesting.

That's the bottomline. The Jeckyll and Hyde has to stop and this group consistently play to their abilities. It's hard to buy that the team isn't good enough as constructed when they've shown absolute dominance. They're good enough, they have to play to it.

If so - trade Johnsson and sign Mihkeyev for ~1m less, leaves ~8m for the 4th line, spare forward, a 2/3 D
If not - one of Matthews or Marner is gone in a foundation shaking trade.

 

[Trapper]

I mean... this is why moved on from Kessel right? Talented guy, great winger... but wanted the top guy to have the work ethic, that becomes contagious to the rest.

Pretty much. Now Kessel was one guy.
This is a core and we have to discuss finding others to provide energy and infuse compete?
People want to keep all the players, it’s simple, show us anything Carolina showed us last game.
19 games + playoffs. Is full on grind it too much to ask? The intensity like Pittsburgh the rest of the way. Do we really need to come back in a game or 2 and say that was brutal?

 

[ACC1224]

They may have to move away from the core at some point.
The secondary players have been more of an issue than the core, IMO.

If one of Marner or Nylander is moved, the thought of Dubas orchestrating that is a little scary.

 

[ottomaddox]

The bigger question is:

Does Dubas have permission to split them up?


He doesn't know what he wants at this point. He is a confused individual and also inexperienced.

The whole Zamboni driver debacle let him off the hook as far as I can tell. He has managed the cap poorly, traded away a lot of assets, and at this point doesn't believe in the team he just built.

A broken man gets to fix this broken team?

 

[Trapper]

This thread is a great discussion, after those 19 games, and/if whatever playoff games are played. How we respond over that time, will be telling....

It will be. The sad part is it was supposed to be telling with a new coach. It was supposed to be telling in the new year. It was supposed to be telling in a tight playoff race. It was supposed to be telling just before the trade deadline (help vs. no).
Now we are in to 19 games + playoffs telling.
Now I have to agree at this point because there really is nothing else.
The top guys have to own it.

 

[Brown Dog]

If this season fizzles out the way it looks like it's going to, I think you give since serious consideration to shopping Marner in the offseason.

Andersen should definitely be replaced.

I also consider Hyman part of the core.

 

[ottomaddox]

Andersen is NOT part of the core. Not a chance! The first chance Dubas gets to run him out of town, he should.

I think one of the three, $11M players (Matthews, Marner, Tavares) have to go. I would say Tavares. There is way too much money wrapped up with these three. Tavares is the oldest and declining rapidly.

Run him out of town?

Should everything be out of spite?

 

[Trapper]

They may have to move away from the core at some point.
The secondary players have been more of an issue than the core, IMO.

If one of Marner or Nylander is moved, the thought of Dubas orchestrating that is a little scary.

Memo for the future.
Maybe if maturity is a feasible excuse (the core still has growing, etc.), you don't pay everyone based on what an accomplished vet/UFA would be getting. Maybe you pick one like Matthews (who should fall in the Eichel type trend) but as for the rest, perhaps that term/dollar should be bridge/lower while the growing phase is being used.

 

[Leafsman]

THe core's fine. They just need to grow a little more and learn that there is more to winning that making TSN's 1v1.

There was an unfortunate circumstance that most of us over-estimated a team that under-performed which leads to panic and apocalyptic knee-jerk responses.

The reality is that this is still a winning team, it just needs more time than we thought.

 

[TheKingSlayer]

The tone needs to be set from the top and you need absolute faith that the top is even going to listen to whatever tone you’re playing.
If they don’t, if the work ethic doesn’t improve, you can enjoy whatever you get in the 82 game season but that’s really where it’s stopping. The jury is still out, I want a core that battles hard and sets the tone, not waiting for others.

And sometimes that never happens - look at Ovechkin. He had the compete when the puck was on his stick, but at a young age he couldn`t give a rats ass about playing defense. The Caps had to go get some gritty players to set the tone. Eventually the superstars figured it out and they got their cup and have looked good ever since.

These superstars are used to winning based on talent alone. When they start figuring out that talent alone does not equal wins in the NHL, they will get their ass in gear, or they will simply be regular season heroes. We have to give the core at least a couple more years to figure that out. Until then, Dubas NEEDS to round out the team with players who DO compete. We have too many skilled players trying to figure out what it takes to win, and too few players who know how to win already. We need more of the Muzzin/Clifford/Hymans of the world to complement the skill. They can carry the skill until the skill figures it out. And if they don`t, well then it becomes a matter of accepting who they are, or moving on.

 

[Nooodles]

I don't know, Washington did.

bUt oBvIoUsLy f**K dUmBaSs

 

[Trapper]

And sometimes that never happens - look at Ovechkin. He had the compete when the puck was on his stick, but at a young age he couldn`t give a rats ass about playing defense. The Caps had to go get some gritty players to set the tone. Eventually the superstars figured it out and they got their cup and have looked good ever since.

These superstars are used to winning based on talent alone. When they start figuring out that talent alone does not equal wins in the NHL, they will get their ass in gear, or they will simply be regular season heroes. We have to give the core at least a couple more years to figure that out. Until then, Dubas NEEDS to round out the team with players who DO compete. We have too many skilled players trying to figure out what it takes to win, and too few players who know how to win already. We need more of the Muzzin/Clifford/Hymans of the world to complement the skill. They can carry the skill until the skill figures it out. And if they don`t, well then it becomes a matter of accepting who they are, or moving on.

I can get behind what you are saying. That will involve Dubas looking to rounding out the team in different ways to do that though.
Not the Petan/Malgin/Rosen/Johnsson types, but a more balanced group to see if that helps the core evolve in the now. Like the Muzzin/Hyman you speak of. Perhaps an Anderson in the summer. A Tkachuk type forward. A Manson D.
Now after that, the onus is ultimately still on the core, they still need will and care, but before you look at the type of change, you absolutely need to change whatever you have around them that isn't working despite your "vision". The NHL is not one way. You need to be able to mix it up with the opponent in different ways.
You don't play the exact same team every round of the playoffs.

 

[Marshy]

You keep the core together one more season. Don't let Dubas dismantle it. You can't fire Dubas until he has one full season with his chosen coach. However, if after next season this team is still dysfunctional and disappointing - Dubas needs to be replaced by an experienced GM. Let that GM make the necessary changes including the core, as he sees fit. Shanny will have made a mistake hiring Dubas. He would get one more chance from me to fix that mistake. He would be on the clock to go at that point and it would be a short leash.

 

[stewpac]

Keep the core together is the only option forward, teading one isnt going to make us better despite the current feelings among fans and media. This will be the tightest year for cap, it will only increase and all the big deals will look better and better.

This season was always going to be the most difficult, problem is their play has compounded the issue. Look we've seen these guys play for more than one year and we know what they're capable of, these attributes haven't magically dissapeared.

Things will improve and as the cap goes up so will our chances. These guys are here for the long haul and obviously so are we.

 

[Clark4Ever]

Marner makes the most sense to move. Tavares and Matthews are here to stay, and I believe that Nylander provides the better value on his contract compared to Mitch.

Having 3 forwards making $11 million is already crazy to start with. He's a great playmaker but goalscoring is always more coveted and the rarer skillset, and it's something Matthews, Tavares, and Nylander can all do better. The latter three can also all play centre, a more coveted position than winger.

Marner would also bring back the most in a trade compared to Nylander. Could get an actual top pairing D-man one for one and would likely still have dollars leftover to address an area of need.

Marner has also probably rubbed the organization the wrong way the most. His contract negotiation as far as I'm concerned was the dirtiest of the three. Nylander took till the final minute yes, but his camp never ran to the media stirring up controversy and drama. Nylander's contract is also looking like the best of the three. Nylander for all the work ethic criticism thrown his way has scored a ton of his goals from the front of the net, and has shown a marked improvement in his game. Matthews has as well, while Mitch seems to have stagnated.

The biggest reason to move him would be the message it would send. The hometown boy, drafted here and signed long term gets traded sends the message that no one is safe and that management is not satisfied with anything less than excellence. It would be a real wakeup call for this team that seems to have developed it's own version of blue and white disease.

Mitch is still insanely talented and who knows, maybe they do grow up and figure it all out. But as it stands right now this team as it's currently constructed can't and won't compete for anything substantial.

Deal Marner, and go forward with a core of Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Rielly, Muzzin, New top pairing D-man, and Andersen.

Agreed on all counts.

Moving Marner would piss off Matthews and all but guarantee that he's gone in 4 years, but so be it.

The team comes first.

 

[GoonieFace]

Something is rotten in this team. Is it Matthews? Is he a problem in the dressing room? Seems like he might want to bail as soon as he can, signing a 5 year deal was the first sign.

Having half your cap tied up in 4 forwards was a disaster waiting to happen. Not enough jam from those guys, too soft, no drive. 2 of them need to go. Whose those 2 are is unknown. Most likely Marner and Nylander. Tavares won't be traded and the same for Matthews, unless he is indeed the problem.

You are better off spreading that money around for a more balanced team, and especially on the backend. Our d is a complete mess.

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

You don't just decide ahead of time that someone needs to move no matter what. That ends up in panic moves with questionable returns. You wait for the right time and the right deal before making it, and that's exactly what Dubas has been doing up to now and what he should continue to do. He has another 15 months to shape up the roster and if the Leafs don't win at least a couple of playoff rounds by then, he'll probably get fired in the 2021 offseason.

 

[Drew311]

If the Leafs don't make the playoffs and you see the same crap early next year I put Marner on the table. You keep your centers and Willy is on a nice contract. Marner could fetch you a top pairing defenseman and a young winger.

 

[Tairy Greene]

They need to bring in a good defensemen Dman to play with Reilly. If you can keep the big 4 together and find a way to do that then great. Eventually you probably have to look at moving Marner or Willy, probably when Reilly is due for a new contract.

 

[Drew311]

Keep the core. 4 strong forwards similar to how the Blackhawks had Sharp, Hossa, Toews, and Kane during their dynasty years. Obv the hawks had more heart than our current guys but that can change.

And none of those players had a cap hit over 6M.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The truth is we are in deep deep sh*t next year too. We got 77M tied up in 15 players. Expect CAP to go up by 1.5M to 83M so we will have 6M to sign 8 guys for 23 man roster. So bottom end guys again at league minimum.

Dermy at 2M and Mik at 1.5M on bridges means 2.5M left for 6 guys which is impossible. So likely a 20 man roster with 3 more guys at 700K each with $0.4M left in space.

We are in CAP hell in my books next year.

 

[ACC1224]

The truth is we are in deep deep sh*t next year too. We got 77M tied up in 15 players. Expect CAP to go up by 1.5M to 83M so we will have 6M to sign 8 guys for 23 man roster. So bottom end guys again at league minimum.

Dermy at 2M and Mik at 1.5M on bridges means 2.5M left for 6 guys which is impossible. So likely a 20 man roster with 3 more guys at 700K each with $0.4M left in space.

We are in CAP hell in my books next year.

'We can and we will'

 

[JT AM da real deal]

'We can and we will'

We can do it for sure. But roster is not getting upgraded at all. Assuming 2 spots for Clifford and Spezza and 1 for a defender. Hell likely even Rosen again.