Keep the core together?

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
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GTA or the UK
I know for a fact that the Red Wings have dropped prices because they suck and people won't go. Hockeytown my ass.

This is perfectly normal, acceptable fan behavior.

It's Toronto that is bizarre. 18,000 people showing up no matter what, for ridiculous overpriced crap and a subpar product? Not to mention how embarrassing that arena is?

That's "ass"
 

JT AM da real deal

Registered User
Oct 4, 2018
12,140
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It looks like the Leafs, thanks to a series of drafts in which they drafted high and took the best available player and that was a high-end forward, they are now a better version of the Oilers circa 2016. The whole hockey world could see they needed to do something to balance out their team. Of course, what they did was not advisable, but there's no doubt Hall for Larsson balanced the team in a big way.

I was just spitballing with a friend the other night. Not necessarily an advocate for any of this but if you want to do something radical and realistic to reshape the team almost immediately, how about this:

- Matthews for Aho and Slavin

(there are going to be wildly divergent opinions on who should say no for this trade, but it makes sense in a number of ways. Toronto gets a stud #1 D that brings exactly what they've lacked for decades. They get a great, but not franchise center back. They get back players who are better salary cap values. I realize that when you're talking about a player of Matthews' caliber, the value of the player on the ice, in a trade, and what you have to expect to pay them goes up exponentially, so by no means do I think Matthews is just 11% better than Aho because he's 11% more productive over the past two seasons combined; those extra goals are the gravy on what would otherwise be a good steak. Carolina gets a truly game-breaking scorer like they have literally never had in their franchise's history. They have an incredibly strong defense corps. They are probably the only team in the league where you could completely remove their #1 and they could still claim to be above average in the league. This costs us about 1.5M on the cap in total).

- Sign UFA Pietrangelo (7 years, 9M)

(it's not that I advocate signing a 30 year old for 7 years, but let's be honest, someone will give him 7 years so we will have to. We can at least afford to front load it so that it's easier to move as he hits 35+. Pietrangelo has always been a truly elite player and has never stopped being one. He's going to be great for a few years still. He's the most accomplished PK defenseman of this generation. He's the proverbial "good Ontario boy" who you can imagine would like to come here. He's a righty.)

- Ceci and Barrie walk

(replaced by Sandin and Lilljegren as full-time players. We can disagree on how ready those two players are, but if they're just getting 3rd pairing and 2nd PP duty to the tune of about 15-16 sheltered minutes a game, they can handle that at their ages. You might be wondering, what about Holl and Dermott? You're right, they are both NHL players too, even if they're nothing special. For starters, there's nothing wrong with having 8 good defensemen. You can expect one of them to be injured at any time, so we have 7. Then you just swap them out as needed throughout the season. If one proves to be a problem - i.e. they don't like being shuffled in and out, they prove to be too good to be a rotating 5-6-7, then they are an asset we can trade. Ceci and Barrie's salaries in exchange for an entry level deal saves us about 5.75 on the cap)

This would be the first time since, let's say 1993-94 (arguably, 2002-03) that the Leafs could say they have an above average defense corps. Wouldn't that be nice for a change? And it wouldn't just be above average. Jake Muzzin as your #4, that's incredible. If you wanted, you could have Rielly, Pietrangelo or Slavin on the ice at all times.

In total, those three moves put us up 4.75 on the cap compared to right now. When I add up everything that's on the books for next year, minus the out, plus the in, plus the kessel money, I have us at 91.3, so at about $8M over the cap, something else would have to give:

- Andersen (saves us 4M if he's replaced with a bargain backup. Some teams rely on a goalie, some teams have such strong D that the goalie doesn't matter all that much. We would have to hope we're the lattter. Campbell's early returns are great too, if you haven't noticed)
- Nylander (His contract actually looks really moveable right now, doesn't it? assume we get back a younger cheaper roster player and picks, we save about $4M with this)
- Kapanen (We don't necessarily need an NHLer back in this deal, just assume we replace him with a Moore/Engvall type player and save $2M)
- Holl (He's a useful #5 to nearly any team and on a fair salary for 3 more years, as nice as it would be to keep him, we wouldn't need to. Saves us $2M)

Is this a reasonable framework for reshaping the team? Hey, I'm as attached to Matthews as anyone else, but the goal is having a better team and winning the cup, not holding onto players without a larger goal in mind.
If we ever traded Matty for Aho and Slavin we would also need Canes next 2 years 1st round picks. Matty gets 4 high end 1st rounders all day every day.
But I can't ever see trading a potential world #1 for ANYONE. To me its a NO.
 
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HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
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18,000 people showing up no matter what, for ridiculous overpriced crap and a subpar product? Not to mention how embarrassing that arena is?

They didn't pay for the tickets.

Their company gives them 2 games a year. They take their kids and wife and everyone is happy.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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If we ever traded Matty for Aho and Slavin we would also need Canes next 2 years 1st round picks. Matty gets 4 high end 1st rounders all day every day.
But I can't ever see trading a potential world #1 for ANYONE. To me its a NO.

I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised to hear Canes fans say, "well Aho's almost as good as Matthews and makes way less money, AND we have to throw in Slavin? No thanks!" Matthews is obviously great but I think if you're calling him "a potential world #1" you may be overrating him. He's only 13th in points per game over this season and the previous two. He's not a Crosby or a McDavid. Certainly may be an Ovi who plays center, or a less balanced Malkin, or a better Eichel, or a Stamkos. There are definitely good examples to point to, where Matthews was better at the same age. MacKinnon, Kucherov, Kane. So we're still in the dark as to exactly where he'll fit in the grand pecking order when he truly peaks, but I'm pretty comfortable saying it's not gonna be Crosby/McDavid territory.
 

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
12,703
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GTA or the UK
They didn't pay for the tickets.

Their company gives them 2 games a year. They take their kids and wife and everyone is happy.

Every team has a strong percentage of corporate seats. The Raptors have a similar situation.

As the generations game has shown us, filling that arena with kids creates a pretty loud, energetic atmosphere. The sort of atmosphere that you just don't see / hear in that building for hockey games.

That isn't the entire problem.
 

JT AM da real deal

Registered User
Oct 4, 2018
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I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised to hear Canes fans say, "well Aho's almost as good as Matthews and makes way less money, AND we have to throw in Slavin? No thanks!" Matthews is obviously great but I think if you're calling him "a potential world #1" you may be overrating him. He's only 13th in points per game over this season and the previous two. He's not a Crosby or a McDavid. Certainly may be an Ovi who plays center, or a less balanced Malkin, or a better Eichel, or a Stamkos. There are definitely good examples to point to, where Matthews was better at the same age. MacKinnon, Kucherov, Kane. So we're still in the dark as to exactly where he'll fit in the grand pecking order when he truly peaks, but I'm pretty comfortable saying it's not gonna be Crosby/McDavid territory.

Well again no one knows where he or McJesus will end up but they are 22 year old kids. Matty scores goals at an even strength rate not matched with any current player including McJesus. I don't want to get into who will be better but McJesus is a -5 player on a +5 team. Matty is a +16 player on a +9 team. Faceoffs are not even close. When you look at total points to time on ice well i am going to stop. Yes McJesus skates faster and is more dynamic on the ice. But when you look at actual production it is really pretty close. I don't think I am overrating him. When I first saw them both square off against each other as kids (14/15) it was first time I had ever seen someone actually completely beat McJesus full stop. I know his dad was completely shocked to. We all were. Everyone up to that point thought he was the worlds best 97 playing up as a 96. Then comes this kid from nowhere. I tend to think McJesus is better too because I think Matty takes too many games off. You don't see that with McJesus his motor is much more consistent. But I think there is still a chance he becomes world #1. All he needs i think is to get a slight bit faster over the summer and we could see a huge jump in his numbers. He might be a guy playing with Mitch who get 150 points.
 

JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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The problem is the NHL punishes teams for getting too many good players. If you draft and develop too well you are forced to trade them away.
Call it what you want. It is a CAP system rigged to keep some p*ss poor market teams playing top level pro hockey. So that Gary has national US geographical distribution so HE can get his big $$$ national cable TV deal. It really has been all about that since he came into our league. Once he gets his mission he should retire and lets get a new mandate to produce ELITE NHL hockey again. I for one am tired of watching mediocre hockey where each team gets 3-4 good players. Lets have 5-6 teams with 15 good players. and maybe a 2nd tier who can afford maybe 3-4 good players.
 

Goleafsgo95

Registered User
Jan 12, 2018
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89
Matthews - Seems to be putting more of an effort into his 2-way game which is good to see, his goal-scoring ability makes him untouchable.

Marner - Hasn't been on the top of his game this year but still a very effective young player who is going to continue to progress, elite playmaker, Toronto boy. For those of you saying to ship him out because of a lack of effort just remember that during most of the Big 3's tenure, Marner has had the strongest work ethic of those three, so I think pointing the finger at him is unfair.

Nylander - Having an outstanding season and making his contract look like a bargain. I don't get why anyone would suggest getting rid of Nylander when he is the only elite player we have locked up long-term for a bargain.

Tavares - Not having as good of a season as last year but some of that you need to attribute to injuries and line shuffling. Regardless, his numbers are right around his career average. Another goal-scoring threat with a different skillset than the Big 3. Prone to declining but at this point he's still a #1C caliber player. We may have to move him in the future if things go south quick but now isn't the time. Given what everyone says about Tavares, I suspect he will do everything he can to slow his decline. The stupidest thing I've seen thrown around is that we shouldn't have signed him. At this point Tavares is still an asset even if we did want to trade him, #1Cs are elusive for many teams as we have personally experienced post-Sundin.

We need to keep these 4 together. I can't think of another team that can throw out 2 elite offensive players on each of their first 2 lines. They have varying skillsets that compliment each other well. This kind of top end depth allows the team to be a major threat at full force and not fall off a cliff when we run into injuries. These players are also interchangeable; Matthews-Nylander/Matthews-Marner, Tavares-Marner/Tavares-Nylander are all proven combinations that work. Yes, it's a lot of money up front and 3 of the 4 are overpaid, but it's worth it to have 2 elite lines.

Rielly - Effective #1D for this team but we need a solid RHD partner for him. Still has upside to become better defensively and truly become a top class #1D. We need to resign him when his contract is up.

Andersen - I'm a fan of Andersen and how at different points he has looked like a Vezina caliber goaltender and carried this team. But I don't know whether or not he's the right man for the job, especially if we have to give him a raise when his contract expires. The way this season/playoffs go will tell us a lot. I think in the glimpses we've seen of this team excelling in Keefe's system it shows that if they manage to play this style consistently, we don't need a worldbeater goalie, just a steady one. I think overall Freddy's very good and his end of year stats usually look solid. The problem is that you don't know if he's going to play like a Vezina goalie and win a game for the team, or let in a pile of goals and lose the game for the team. In the playoffs these kind of ups and downs will kill us. We need a goalie who can consistently give us a chance to win and after this year I think we've seen enough of Freddy to know whether he's the guy or not. Possibly the odd man out but I'd definitely keep the others.

Dubas needs to stop trying to reinvent the wheel and surround these players with the right mix of support players.
 

TheProspector

Registered User
Oct 18, 2007
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Orlando
The only member of the core who isn't at least pulling their weight is Andersen. The rest of them are excellent. We probably do need a #1 goaltender again, though. :-(
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

Registered User
Jun 17, 2010
45,606
14,465
I wouldn't touch the core, and that includes Freddie.

It is not the cores fault that Dubas allowed Hutch to piss away so many points before he FINALLY got off his ass and chose to fix it, imagine if we had Freddie and Campbell all year where this team would be.

It is not the cores fault our right side defense is not good enough,

Again that's on Dubas.

It isn't the cores fault that the bottom 6 needs to be reworked that's on Dubas.

The core has actually done their job.

I would take one of Kerfoot Johnsson or Kapanen and package them for the D man you need.

I would keep Spezza but make him the 4C and look to sign a new 3C and tell Keefe to USE him on the PK and don't have Hyman take face offs because he is a f***ing winger he is at an automatic disadvantage in the dot.

I would sign Judas, Hamonic, somebody to fill the gap on RD

I would see what Clifford wants.

You don't need to touch the core to fix this team.
 
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Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
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Call it what you want. It is a CAP system rigged to keep some p*ss poor market teams playing top level pro hockey. So that Gary has national US geographical distribution so HE can get his big $$$ national cable TV deal. It really has been all about that since he came into our league. Once he gets his mission he should retire and lets get a new mandate to produce ELITE NHL hockey again. I for one am tired of watching mediocre hockey where each team gets 3-4 good players. Lets have 5-6 teams with 15 good players. and maybe a 2nd tier who can afford maybe 3-4 good players.

I 100% agree with what you are saying.

The problem here, is many US teams just wouldn't survive without a combination of the cap + revenue sharing.

The league's TV deal is huge, and the next one is going to be even bigger - however, it dwarfs in comparison to all the other big 4 North American sport TV and rights deals. I don't blame Gary for trying to aid the BoGs of those smaller market American teams, because as a result, the league is now in it's strongest financial position in a really long time.

However, the trade off of said financial stability, is this awful parity that the league has at the moment; the trade deadline just passed, and it was highlighted by a bunch of smaller, more insignificant deals, which has been the case for the past several years. A big reason for this, is because the salary cap has introduced parity, and with parity, you often have 2/3rds of the league feeling as though they are still "in it" with regards to the playoff race. The Pacific Division is a great example of that.

When you only realistically have 2 or 3 main "sellers" at any given deadline, you are never going to get any major moves occurring.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Oct 4, 2018
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I 100% agree with what you are saying.

The problem here, is many US teams just wouldn't survive without a combination of the cap + revenue sharing.

The league's TV deal is huge, and the next one is going to be even bigger - however, it dwarfs in comparison to all the other big 4 North American sport TV and rights deals. I don't blame Gary for trying to aid the BoGs of those smaller market American teams, because as a result, the league is now in it's strongest financial position in a really long time.

However, the trade off of said financial stability, is this awful parity that the league has at the moment; the trade deadline just passed, and it was highlighted by a bunch of smaller, more insignificant deals, which has been the case for the past several years. A big reason for this, is because the salary cap has introduced parity, and with parity, you often have 2/3rds of the league feeling as though they are still "in it" with regards to the playoff race. The Pacific Division is a great example of that.

When you only realistically have 2 or 3 main "sellers" at any given deadline, you are never going to get any major moves occurring.
I 100% agree with what you are saying.

The problem here, is many US teams just wouldn't survive without a combination of the cap + revenue sharing.

The league's TV deal is huge, and the next one is going to be even bigger - however, it dwarfs in comparison to all the other big 4 North American sport TV and rights deals. I don't blame Gary for trying to aid the BoGs of those smaller market American teams, because as a result, the league is now in it's strongest financial position in a really long time.

However, the trade off of said financial stability, is this awful parity that the league has at the moment; the trade deadline just passed, and it was highlighted by a bunch of smaller, more insignificant deals, which has been the case for the past several years. A big reason for this, is because the salary cap has introduced parity, and with parity, you often have 2/3rds of the league feeling as though they are still "in it" with regards to the playoff race. The Pacific Division is a great example of that.

When you only realistically have 2 or 3 main "sellers" at any given deadline, you are never going to get any major moves occurring.
After the mega TV cable contract is signed for 10 years then league will have money to float the weaker teams. So we don't let them go under. They can pay for what they can afford. The 5-6 richer teams can pay a tax back to league to help them out too. Kinda like MLB. But we get to see some higher level better hockey especially in playoffs.
 

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