A1LeafNation
Obsession beats talent everytime!!
- Oct 17, 2010
- 27,490
- 17,497
Keep the core together?
- Thread starter A1LeafNation
- Start date
Add Muzzin to the core and keep them all.
You cannot have the following players all on the same Team.
Too one dimensional.
I would try to get rid of all of them.
Bring in some old school blood and guts.
Tough job.
Get someone who can/will do it.
Not Dubas.
Out.
Johnsson/Kapanen/Kerfoot/Engvall/Malgin/Petan/Bracco/Solomaki/
etc...
Surround the talent with some stones.
Enough with the science experiment.
ITM
Out on the front line, don't worry I'll be fine...
- Jan 26, 2012
- 4,618
- 2,576
Said it before with respect to Kadri and Andersen...It is far more likely that they were never going to be a part of a Toronto Maple Leafs Stanley Cup championship team. The expectation that this club was a contender 5 years after Matthews (and this is prior to the Tavares trade) was always flawed.
Campbell looks like he could be a starting goalie. He was drafted as a starter, high, eleventh overall. He might be a kind of repeated Lehner who was drafted the year before with a lot of hype, even though only taken in the second round but took longer than expected to fulfill expectation.
Matthews is non-negotiable. If you move him, you're committed to a complete redefinition and restart of the club. Think his kind come along every now and then? Wrong. He's the cornerstone. He (or Reilly) should probably be the captain. And that's a situation revisited that progressive minds don't balk at when confronting problems with team chemistry.
Without delving too much into other preferences and scenarios, I'll simply say that if we moved on from Andersen and got a high pick, another 1b type (i.e. Aaron Dell, David Rittich) or solid prospect (i.e. Kappo Kahkonen) and much of the space his present and future cap hit occupy, then that's a move I could see as being long-reaching given our other obvious pressing needs. I've been an Andersen-apologist in the past and I think he's a good goalie going through a dreadful slump. But even at optimal efficiency, Andersen doesn't and can't offset our glaring defensive needs, be it a better two-way forward or a better defensive defenceman.
Campbell looks like he could be a starting goalie. He was drafted as a starter, high, eleventh overall. He might be a kind of repeated Lehner who was drafted the year before with a lot of hype, even though only taken in the second round but took longer than expected to fulfill expectation.
Matthews is non-negotiable. If you move him, you're committed to a complete redefinition and restart of the club. Think his kind come along every now and then? Wrong. He's the cornerstone. He (or Reilly) should probably be the captain. And that's a situation revisited that progressive minds don't balk at when confronting problems with team chemistry.
Without delving too much into other preferences and scenarios, I'll simply say that if we moved on from Andersen and got a high pick, another 1b type (i.e. Aaron Dell, David Rittich) or solid prospect (i.e. Kappo Kahkonen) and much of the space his present and future cap hit occupy, then that's a move I could see as being long-reaching given our other obvious pressing needs. I've been an Andersen-apologist in the past and I think he's a good goalie going through a dreadful slump. But even at optimal efficiency, Andersen doesn't and can't offset our glaring defensive needs, be it a better two-way forward or a better defensive defenceman.
Beaszt519
Registered User
- Feb 15, 2020
- 47
- 36
IF I could start a team fresh for next season:
LW / Matthews / RW
Hyman / C / RW
Mikheyev / C / Kapanen
Engvall/C/RW
Rielly / RD
Muzzin / RD
Sandin / RD
Starting Goalie
Campbell
Leafs would have a TON of assets in the players left out of this lineup that they could easily trade to fill out the rest with a much more complete and competitive team.
LW / Matthews / RW
Hyman / C / RW
Mikheyev / C / Kapanen
Engvall/C/RW
Rielly / RD
Muzzin / RD
Sandin / RD
Starting Goalie
Campbell
Leafs would have a TON of assets in the players left out of this lineup that they could easily trade to fill out the rest with a much more complete and competitive team.
Hockey Crazy
Registered User
- Dec 30, 2008
- 2,942
- 2,071
Cant say I disagree. The core has the ability to figure it out but I think the key is to surround them with some guys who play a more direct game and can bring some energy every night.
Jimmy Firecracker
Fire Sheldon.
Marner makes the most sense to move. Tavares and Matthews are here to stay, and I believe that Nylander provides the better value on his contract compared to Mitch.
Having 3 forwards making $11 million is already crazy to start with. He's a great playmaker but goalscoring is always more coveted and the rarer skillset, and it's something Matthews, Tavares, and Nylander can all do better. The latter three can also all play centre, a more coveted position than winger.
Marner would also bring back the most in a trade compared to Nylander. Could get an actual top pairing D-man one for one and would likely still have dollars leftover to address an area of need.
Marner has also probably rubbed the organization the wrong way the most. His contract negotiation as far as I'm concerned was the dirtiest of the three. Nylander took till the final minute yes, but his camp never ran to the media stirring up controversy and drama. Nylander's contract is also looking like the best of the three. Nylander for all the work ethic criticism thrown his way has scored a ton of his goals from the front of the net, and has shown a marked improvement in his game. Matthews has as well, while Mitch seems to have stagnated.
The biggest reason to move him would be the message it would send. The hometown boy, drafted here and signed long term gets traded sends the message that no one is safe and that management is not satisfied with anything less than excellence. It would be a real wakeup call for this team that seems to have developed it's own version of blue and white disease.
Mitch is still insanely talented and who knows, maybe they do grow up and figure it all out. But as it stands right now this team as it's currently constructed can't and won't compete for anything substantial.
Deal Marner, and go forward with a core of Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Rielly, Muzzin, New top pairing D-man, and Andersen.
Having 3 forwards making $11 million is already crazy to start with. He's a great playmaker but goalscoring is always more coveted and the rarer skillset, and it's something Matthews, Tavares, and Nylander can all do better. The latter three can also all play centre, a more coveted position than winger.
Marner would also bring back the most in a trade compared to Nylander. Could get an actual top pairing D-man one for one and would likely still have dollars leftover to address an area of need.
Marner has also probably rubbed the organization the wrong way the most. His contract negotiation as far as I'm concerned was the dirtiest of the three. Nylander took till the final minute yes, but his camp never ran to the media stirring up controversy and drama. Nylander's contract is also looking like the best of the three. Nylander for all the work ethic criticism thrown his way has scored a ton of his goals from the front of the net, and has shown a marked improvement in his game. Matthews has as well, while Mitch seems to have stagnated.
The biggest reason to move him would be the message it would send. The hometown boy, drafted here and signed long term gets traded sends the message that no one is safe and that management is not satisfied with anything less than excellence. It would be a real wakeup call for this team that seems to have developed it's own version of blue and white disease.
Mitch is still insanely talented and who knows, maybe they do grow up and figure it all out. But as it stands right now this team as it's currently constructed can't and won't compete for anything substantial.
Deal Marner, and go forward with a core of Matthews, Tavares, Nylander, Rielly, Muzzin, New top pairing D-man, and Andersen.
Jmo89
Registered User
- Mar 21, 2010
- 4,413
- 3,929
I think one of the "big 3" needs to be traded to truly contend. I seen that this team was mentally weak 2 seasons ago but had hoped someone would grow into a leadership role. They need a proven, talented top 6 guy who has actually won something.
Everybody and their uncle knows they need to do something about their defence as well. That said, and I know the D can be blamed many night, I don't think Andersen is a goalie who will ever take them to a conference final, let alone a SCF. I would love to be wrong about that.
I think Matthews has shown strides in his passion, and being one of the best scoring centers in the league he's the untouchable one IMO. It's between Nylander and Marner for who gets traded. I could write a page on both for why they should or shouldn't.
Everybody and their uncle knows they need to do something about their defence as well. That said, and I know the D can be blamed many night, I don't think Andersen is a goalie who will ever take them to a conference final, let alone a SCF. I would love to be wrong about that.
I think Matthews has shown strides in his passion, and being one of the best scoring centers in the league he's the untouchable one IMO. It's between Nylander and Marner for who gets traded. I could write a page on both for why they should or shouldn't.
Andersen is NOT part of the core. Not a chance! The first chance Dubas gets to run him out of town, he should.
I think one of the three, $11M players (Matthews, Marner, Tavares) have to go. I would say Tavares. There is way too much money wrapped up with these three. Tavares is the oldest and declining rapidly.
I think one of the three, $11M players (Matthews, Marner, Tavares) have to go. I would say Tavares. There is way too much money wrapped up with these three. Tavares is the oldest and declining rapidly.
Anderson will need to go, he's been awful this year on the whole.
Otherwise, I think the whole "can we win with this core" question kind of has to be put to bed, because the answer is an overwhelming and non-objective yes. The problem? Can we get enough depth around them to do it? Debatable, but still yes.
Push to shove, as much as I think Marner is an unreal talent, if we couldn't move JT I think it will have to be him. Nylander is better value and Matthews is pretty much untouchable.
Otherwise, I think the whole "can we win with this core" question kind of has to be put to bed, because the answer is an overwhelming and non-objective yes. The problem? Can we get enough depth around them to do it? Debatable, but still yes.
Push to shove, as much as I think Marner is an unreal talent, if we couldn't move JT I think it will have to be him. Nylander is better value and Matthews is pretty much untouchable.
Buds17
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2015
- 8,318
- 3,420
Of the core six listed, I'd guess Andersen would be the most likely to move. Part of the reason for that is having the least amount of time left on his deal. A capable replacement would have to be brought in though; a 1A to Campbell's 1B. Forward departures probably come again from the third line (at least one of Johnsson, Kerfoot, Kapanen) instead of the bigger tickets. The point about the three being young is appropriate. That's also true for the contract factor in a cap league.
I feel similarly. I’d keep Nylander. Trading all those pieces will be tough. Tavares almost impossible and it would look horrible on us. Marner I would trade for sure. Johnsson, Kerfoot too in a heartbeat. Andersen only if he can be properly replaced
Yes they should, this whole season was a wash due to coaching, injuries, god awful goaltending general dysfunctionality.
That said, if someone is willing to grossly overpay for any of the core, why not? Now is the perfect time to explore options under the guise of a bad year.
That said, this notion that if we make some lateral move, we're magically way better is laughable. D that comes back to Toronto may make us worse due to the offense lost. People forget we're basically a top 3 offense in the league.
If we didn't get atrocious goaltending, this season could've been a great year. People are just too reactionary, what they don't realize is how f***ing awful Babcock was and how we EASILY could've won those first round matchups each year with slightly better decision making.
The Leafs are 23-13-4 under Keefe, a 100 point pace, not spectacular, but pretty damn good all things considered, they don't need to be getting 110-20 points to be considered a contender.
Stay the course.
That said, if someone is willing to grossly overpay for any of the core, why not? Now is the perfect time to explore options under the guise of a bad year.
That said, this notion that if we make some lateral move, we're magically way better is laughable. D that comes back to Toronto may make us worse due to the offense lost. People forget we're basically a top 3 offense in the league.
If we didn't get atrocious goaltending, this season could've been a great year. People are just too reactionary, what they don't realize is how f***ing awful Babcock was and how we EASILY could've won those first round matchups each year with slightly better decision making.
The Leafs are 23-13-4 under Keefe, a 100 point pace, not spectacular, but pretty damn good all things considered, they don't need to be getting 110-20 points to be considered a contender.
Stay the course.
Thats not too far from what im thinking.....
Maybe someone can help me with this; i started a thread along that like yesterday, entitled blow it up. It was taken down after 4 replies and 10 minutes. Im not too clear on the rules here, just wondering why it was removed.
Maybe someone can help me with this; i started a thread along that like yesterday, entitled blow it up. It was taken down after 4 replies and 10 minutes. Im not too clear on the rules here, just wondering why it was removed.
Tak7
Registered User
Definitely worth revisiting this after the season, IMO.
If it's a failed season, like it's looking like it's shaping up to be, then you have to at the very least, consider splitting them up.
If it's a failed season, like it's looking like it's shaping up to be, then you have to at the very least, consider splitting them up.
tmlms13
Registered User
Tak7
Registered User
It's broken.
Giving up on them? Tavares aside, not a single one of them has done anything to earn any sort of faith or belief from the fans.
I think they're staying together for at least 1 more year..... there's just too much of a risk that if you trade one of these guys, you'll be looking for a replacement immediately... and I don't think you NEED to trade one of these guys to bring in another $4-6m defenceman. There's only 18 in the league defencemen who make more than $6.5m, they are:
Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, OEL, Trouba, Carlson, Burns, Hedman, Weber, Byfuglien, Suter, Ekblad, Letang, Vlasic, Seabrook, Giordano, McDonagh and Provorov.
Of that group, the only ones who I think Leafs would consider (and their current teams would fathom trading) are Doughty, OEL, Byfuglien and Ekblad. I think it's far more likely the defenceman they want to add will make between $4 and $6.5m.
If I was Dubas, what I'd do is the following: Johnsson, Kerfoot, Dermott, Ceci, Barrie, Gauthier, Malgin-- all (or mostly) gone. If you have to trade Kappy, you do that too. You're left with this rough skeleton of a roster:
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Mikheyev-Tavares-Nylander
Engvall-______-Kapanen
_____-______-______
Rielly-_____
Muzzin-Dermott
Sandin-_____
Liljegren
#1 priority is obviously a top defenceman, either you spend $4-5m on a guy like Manson or Pesce, leaving yourself with $2-3m to bring in a seasoned veteran like Hainsey was for us a couple of years ago, or you look for a defenceman in the $6m range, and leave yourself knowingly a little shallow with a guy in the $1.5m range or maybe sign another russian UFA.
#2 priority is replacing Nazem Kadri -- get a centre who can play a shutdown role, guy that goes out with heart every night, and ideally, isn't a black hole offensively.
#3 priority is filling out the bottom of the lineup -- and you do it with guys like Clifford over guys like Timashov & Malgin. If they make the playoffs, they're going to learn that they're going to need to be a little tougher than they are.
What I think will happen -- Dubas will keep as much of the bottom half of his lineup together as possible. He'll get the defenceman he needs, and it'll cost him 1 or 2 of Kap/Johnsson/Kerfoot, but he'll ignore the need for a great 3rd line C, and likely keep Dermott.
Karlsson, Doughty, Subban, OEL, Trouba, Carlson, Burns, Hedman, Weber, Byfuglien, Suter, Ekblad, Letang, Vlasic, Seabrook, Giordano, McDonagh and Provorov.
Of that group, the only ones who I think Leafs would consider (and their current teams would fathom trading) are Doughty, OEL, Byfuglien and Ekblad. I think it's far more likely the defenceman they want to add will make between $4 and $6.5m.
If I was Dubas, what I'd do is the following: Johnsson, Kerfoot, Dermott, Ceci, Barrie, Gauthier, Malgin-- all (or mostly) gone. If you have to trade Kappy, you do that too. You're left with this rough skeleton of a roster:
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Mikheyev-Tavares-Nylander
Engvall-______-Kapanen
_____-______-______
Rielly-_____
Muzzin-Dermott
Sandin-_____
Liljegren
#1 priority is obviously a top defenceman, either you spend $4-5m on a guy like Manson or Pesce, leaving yourself with $2-3m to bring in a seasoned veteran like Hainsey was for us a couple of years ago, or you look for a defenceman in the $6m range, and leave yourself knowingly a little shallow with a guy in the $1.5m range or maybe sign another russian UFA.
#2 priority is replacing Nazem Kadri -- get a centre who can play a shutdown role, guy that goes out with heart every night, and ideally, isn't a black hole offensively.
#3 priority is filling out the bottom of the lineup -- and you do it with guys like Clifford over guys like Timashov & Malgin. If they make the playoffs, they're going to learn that they're going to need to be a little tougher than they are.
What I think will happen -- Dubas will keep as much of the bottom half of his lineup together as possible. He'll get the defenceman he needs, and it'll cost him 1 or 2 of Kap/Johnsson/Kerfoot, but he'll ignore the need for a great 3rd line C, and likely keep Dermott.
Last edited:
Rielly4
Registered User
- Dec 12, 2012
- 3,642
- 627
If we are moving anyone it is JT or Rielly.
JT is just overpaid at this point, his skating is worrysome. That being said he is still a great 2nd line C and a good player, just overpaid.
Rielly could potentially be moved because of our depth at LD (Muzzin, Dermott, Sandin)...If it is for someone like Parayko id consider it.
Dont see anyone from the core getting moved though.
JT is just overpaid at this point, his skating is worrysome. That being said he is still a great 2nd line C and a good player, just overpaid.
Rielly could potentially be moved because of our depth at LD (Muzzin, Dermott, Sandin)...If it is for someone like Parayko id consider it.
Dont see anyone from the core getting moved though.
kb
Registered User
- Aug 28, 2009
- 15,291
- 21,742
We need to see the core play with that 5th round pick from today.
Getting rid of Tavares Nylander AND Marner? Who the hell is Matthews gonna have on his line?
Going from a Big 4 to just 1..... that would be a major panic move.
Something is rotten with this team & it needs to be addressed. The lack of a consistent work ethic is unacceptable. It is even worse when you consider these players, through their agents, spent the last year either holding out or spreading garbage in the media about how much they are worth. Well you know what? Big time players step up when their team needs them & deliver the goods.
I don't know if it's immaturity, laziness or entitlement. Dubas is going to have to address this garbage & isn't going to be able put his head in the sand forever. He can talk about "lessons" all he wants but if this team actually learned anything from them, they would be showing it in their play. They've made no progress in their weak areas whatsoever.
I don't know if it's immaturity, laziness or entitlement. Dubas is going to have to address this garbage & isn't going to be able put his head in the sand forever. He can talk about "lessons" all he wants but if this team actually learned anything from them, they would be showing it in their play. They've made no progress in their weak areas whatsoever.
Show me one team thats blown its core up this quick, especially one that has so many young guys as part of it.
Obviously its frustrating to see the team playing like this, but Gods sake get yourself some fresh air.
Obviously its frustrating to see the team playing like this, but Gods sake get yourself some fresh air.
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