News Article: Karlsson trade is the gift that keeps on giving for rebuilding Senators

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Samsquanch

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Nov 28, 2008
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Tierney I think has pretty much been in line with what should have been expected (ignoring Dorion's "more assists than Marks Stone nonsense"

DeMelo has exceeded reasonable expectations for a guy that literally wasn't qualified a couple months before the trade.

Norris has so far exceed what I expected in his first year in Belleville, it's still really early, but so far he seems to have improved his stock since the trade

SJ fell off a cliff. A pick that was expected to be a 25 to 30 range has turned into looking like a potential 5-15 range.

A lot could still change. Karlsson could find his form. SJ could make the playoffs, Norris could bust. The trade was mostly contingent on futures panning out, and so far they look to have improved while Karlsson has stumbled

I still think it was handled poorly. We should have done something similar to what OEL and Arz did; agree to terms now, or we trade you at the draft or traded him at the deadline the year before. Instead, we got disingenuous "we will make an offer on 1 Jul / I can't talk to him till 1 Jul" crap and back our way into a bad situation.

Regardless of how things pan out, how it was handled is going to leave a sour taste in a lot of peoples mouths.

Cant forget Balcers either, who very well could end up being the best of the bunch.

At this point right now I would have to say that a lot more would have to go wrong than right to turn this trade this trade back into a poor one again for the Sens.

I know we all laughed at PD when he was bragging to the media about getting 6 assets for Karlsson, but in actuality, he really did it, and they really do all add up into something significant at this point. All 6 of these assets currently have some positive value right now. On the flip side, you could make a fairly good argument that Karlsson, his contract, and his cap hit, currently do not have any value in the league.

Im sure that SJ could still find a team to take him for free at this point (ie in exchange for another bad contract), but even those days may soon be numbered unless we see a major resurgence from him soon.
 
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jhutter

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Dec 23, 2016
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The astuteness of the organization is difficult for fans to handle. They screw up , sure, especially the Hoffman trade, which might be the worst. But other scenarios, like trading Turris and maybe Karlsson, may prove that they have bigger balls than many give them credit for. But I'm sure many will just point to the main reason being a fire sale to dump salary. There may be a part of that of course, but not entirely the reason

What I struggle to determine is whether astuteness or luck can be thanked for the Karlsson trade. Was the Karlsson trade a mastermind deal that had everything to do with maximizing the return? Or was the Karlsson deal a salary dump that proved to be successful?

The fact that Stone was given away for seemingly nothing, combined with the Hoffman trade steers me to believing that the Karlsson deal was the latter of my two (overly simplified scenarios).
 
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Sweatred

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What I struggle to determine is whether astuteness or luck can be thanked for the Karlsson trade. Was the Karlsson trade a mastermind deal that had everything to do with maximizing the return? Or was the Karlsson deal a salary dump that proved to be successful?

The fact that Stone was given away for seemingly nothing, combined with the Hoffman trade steers me to believing that the Karlsson deal was the latter of my two (overly simplified scenarios).

Stone was traded about 3/4 of a season behind EK. The masses have or are starting to swing the EK trade in PD’s favour. It will be fair to evaluate the PD EB acquisition towards the end of this year or start of next season. Thomas Chabot was sent to the minors in his D+2 year and wouldn’t have looked great at the time either. Either way, there is lots of room for EB to balance that trade out.
 

GCK

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Trading a star player is never popular, but imo Dorion managed to make it even more unpopular. I think had he been traded to VGK at the deadline the year prior for a similar quality trade (not taking into account the SJ pick skyrocketing in value after the fact) people wouldn't be as sour. That's just my opinion, but I can't imagine it not being the case given how everything went down between Feb and Sep.
It was always going to garner the same reaction. There are posters here who actually believe he is as good as ever. I don’t think the org wanted to keep him but panicked when rumours came out prior to the TDL. I have no doubt that he would have been traded them if there hadn’t been leaks. After the TDL the attempt to change the PR spin was horrible but they were never going to keep him and he was never going to stay.
 
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GCK

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Stone was traded about 3/4 of a season behind EK. The masses have or are starting to swing the EK trade in PD’s favour. It will be fair to evaluate the PD EB acquisition towards the end of this year or start of next season. Thomas Chabot was sent to the minors in his D+2 year and wouldn’t have looked great at the time either. Either way, there is lots of room for EB to balance that trade out.
The Stone trade was a disaster. I truly believe they tried everything to keep Duchene and Stone. Once EK and Duch were traded I think Stone was intent on leaving for LV and only LV.
 

jhutter

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The Stone trade was a disaster. I truly believe they tried everything to keep Duchene and Stone. Once EK and Duch were traded I think Stone was intent on leaving for LV and only LV.

A few things I've read/my personal feelings lead me to believe that Stone had interest in staying. Regardless of whether or not he wanted to stay, it's management's responsibility to create a situation where players want to stay. Stone was drafted and developed by the Senators, and was lost for what I consider to be very little.

Stone was traded about 3/4 of a season behind EK. The masses have or are starting to swing the EK trade in PD’s favour. It will be fair to evaluate the PD EB acquisition towards the end of this year or start of next season. Thomas Chabot was sent to the minors in his D+2 year and wouldn’t have looked great at the time either. Either way, there is lots of room for EB to balance that trade out.

I agree that it's fair to wait longer on the Brannstrom deal. My current feeling is that his ceiling is a top 4 defenceman. Trading Mark Stone for a player that is a few years away from being a top 4 defenceman isn't exactly a haul.

I hope I'm wrong, and luckily I often am :laugh:
 
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swiftwin

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A few things I've read/my personal feelings lead me to believe that Stone had interest in staying. Regardless of whether or not he wanted to stay, it's management's responsibility to create a situation where players want to stay. Stone was drafted and developed by the Senators, and was lost for what I consider to be very little.

I personally think it's ownership's responsibility.
 

jhutter

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I personally think it's ownership's responsibility.

I should've included ownership. Management is responsible to ownership, so anything that management is responsible for is also ownership's responsibility.
 

GrantLemons

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I personally think it's ownership's responsibility.

It is, but good management can abstract bad ownership away from the rest of the company and cultivate a positive culture. Same goes for any company in any business. We saw it first hand with Bryan Murray.

We can't reasonably expect Pierre to be Bryan Murray, but he's certainly not the guy you need running show when you have a cuckoo owner like Eugene. Pierre has poured gas on most of the fires that have come up since he took over GM, as opposed to putting them out.
 

GrantLemons

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Trading a star player is never popular, but imo Dorion managed to make it even more unpopular. I think had he been traded to VGK at the deadline the year prior for a similar quality trade (not taking into account the SJ pick skyrocketing in value after the fact) people wouldn't be as sour. That's just my opinion, but I can't imagine it not being the case given how everything went down between Feb and Sep.

The entire summer of uncertainty gave the appearance that he was either staying, or we were holding out for a high quality return.

Then it happens and it was neither of those things, which just compounded everything.

From a PR standpoint, the drag through the mud of Feb-Sept was the big mistake made by the club in that whole saga.
 

supsens

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It is, but good management can abstract bad ownership away from the rest of the company and cultivate a positive culture. Same goes for any company in any business. We saw it first hand with Bryan Murray.

We can't reasonably expect Pierre to be Bryan Murray, but he's certainly not the guy you need running show when you have a cuckoo owner like Eugene. Pierre has poured gas on most of the fires that have come up since he took over GM, as opposed to putting them out.

Lol what on earth did Bryan Murray do? I still don’t get the stories or his greatness. He took over a very strong team and turned them into a bubble team at best. The day he took over expectations went from a cup to “I hope we don’t finish 25th this year”
How on earth are his tires pumped so much? Never mind leaving Bobby Ryan on his way out the door. Anyone remember his returns for Spezza and Heater?
 

JD1

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I agree that this is pretty annoying.

I also would like to point out, in the spirit of fairness, that the contingent of posters (and I'm not naming names here, but they certainly exist among HFSens) that take the position that regardless of what the team does, it was 100% the right thing to do, are equally annoying.

There are posters here who use some pretty interesting revisionist history, and in doing so some pretty creative and devious arguing styles, on both extreme ends of the general discourse here.

I agree both contingents exist, one does outnumber the other mind you.
 

SpezDispenser

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On the flip side, you could make a fairly good argument that Karlsson, his contract, and his cap hit, currently do not have any value in the league.

Im sure that SJ could still find a team to take him for free at this point (ie in exchange for another bad contract), but even those days may soon be numbered unless we see a major resurgence from him soon.

Oh...I think that could be argued big time. I think he has major value right now, not for long if he continues playing poorly, but right now I could see a lot of teams wanting him badly.

Dont forget san Jose is terrible right now too and it makes everyone on that team look bad collectively. Wilson thought they were close and went for it, but as of now was wrong and everything that could go wrong has.
 

SpezDispenser

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The Stone trade was a disaster. I truly believe they tried everything to keep Duchene and Stone. Once EK and Duch were traded I think Stone was intent on leaving for LV and only LV.

I personally am really excited about Brannstrom, I think he'll be a really solid puck mover, but the optics of stone being traded after Karlsson and duchene were devastating.

I wish we had stone still. Imagine he and tkachuk together? Damn that's so frustrating.
 

JD1

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We all knew the Sens drastically overachieved in that playoff run.

Anything else is revisionist.

I'd say this point of view stems from the position I was talking about which is that generally anything the team does, they should have done the opposite. Which is a view you frequently align with.

That team had a -2 goal differential iirc and lousy corsi. PD made some decent depth moves at the TDL that strengthened that team but at the same time we hit a bad injury bug and we weren't healthy. We didn't get healthy until the playoffs and the playoff team was far stronger than the team that put up the -2 goal differential. Kelly and Neil played all year and didn't play in the playoffs.

Some things that get said about that run: the Bruins were banged up on the rear end. Yes they were. But we went 4-0 against that Bruin team in the regular season. 8-2 on the season.

Anderson and unsustainable goaltending is cited here all the time. Andy posted a 922 save percentage. The other day I posted that 7 of the last 9 cup winning teams had better than 922 goaltending. Were they just lucky too? 922 is generally not good enough goaltending to win a cup. Some of those teams received MUCH better than 922 goaltending. Actually better goaltending might have stopped the off speed shot from Chris Kunitz.

No, it's not revisionist at all. We beat two teams in the playoffs and we deserved both series.
 

Xspyrit

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Jun 29, 2008
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We all know the difficulties with our ownership. Do you really think Dorion gets to wash his hands of all the team's struggles since he took the reigns? I assume he knew about the team's finances when making moves. Why is he burning limited resources on guys like Anderson, Smith, Burrows, Condon, Boedker, Hainsey, Zaitsev? Those moves are entirely on him. Melnyk doesn't have a gun to his head. He's pursued a lot of very very bad players and done stuff like giving away lottery picks because he couldn't properly access where his team was at.

The collapse falls predominantly on him and his lack of moves in the 2017 offseason. That collapse was very predictable and he couldn't see it and now he's tasked with building a team. That is crazy to me.

I don't know why we'd expect anything else than failure from Dorion. We know how his managing of Bingo/Belleville has gone. He hasn't been able to ice a competitive team in the minors for years. And now we're starting to see that bleed into our drafting with the 2019 draft.

If we don't get him out of here soon, the damage is going to be irreparable. This "rebuild" will be like the Oilers of years past. It will never end. This isn't a rebuild, its Pierre Dorion's normal.

I never said Dorion had zero part of the blame. First, nobody is even close to perfect and he probably did some of the damage on his own but the problem is there is always a big asterisk with this owner. But that's probably where the major difference between Dorion and Murray, at some point you have to able to convince the owner which decision/direction wouldn't be good for the team. Examples :

- Zibanejad should have never been traded. Even if he was taking some time to really "arrive", giving him something like 5.35 per really shouldn't have been a problem. Trading him for Brassard, who used to be a pretty good player on his own, is kinda going all in on the very short term, but it was lacking foresight on what could happen after that.

- Burrows : again, another player with his best days behind him. In the end, giving up Dahlen doesn't look like it will hurt much, but Burrows was "expensive" (relatively of course) to acquire and re-sign. Should have went for a younger/cheaper player to acquire/sign (ala Namestnikov?)

- Oduya : another guy with a really good career but couldn't fill Methot's shoes at all in his last NHL season. He was "cheap" but you have to convince your boss that you absolutely need to invest more to fill that very important position of need.

- Condon/Anderson : both extensions were too fast, too soon, too expensive. Painted ourselves in a corner with that goaltending duo which really didn't help to turn things around and ultimately, it resulted in a rebuild

- Duchene : I had no problem paying that price to get Duchene but going into a rebuild while another team has your 1st doesn't make any sense. If you make that type of move (upgrading Turris to Duchene), then for sure you're not going to rebuild the next year. Crazy comparison but it would be like the Sharks trading their best players for futures because they have a tough start. They wouldn't even do their best to turn things around with the Sens holding on their 1st round pick. That's where it shows that Dorion has no decisional power. Dorion is really not as stupid as people are saying, of course he didn't want to happen this way, and of course he would have liked to spend/invest to try and turn things around, but no he had to reduce salaries, cheap out players next contracts as much as possible and spend assets to "save money" in trades.

Hoffman : tough situation with Karlsson but either trade Hoffman for the best return (even if in your own division) or try to fill a position of need (pretty sure a guy with a more expensive salary than Boedker on defense would have been more useful). Trading a 1st liner for a 2nd/3rd line tweener doesn't accomplish anything to turn things around

From where I am sitting, Dorion has been Melnyk's puppet. He's not managing the team on his own like most GMs do, he's managing it under Melnyk precise directives, he really doesn't have the same latitude as others do and I think it's pretty obvious. Yes, Dorion could have done better on many decisions even though he had some hard directives (and probably screwed up by himself somewhere) but it's impossible for us to say how much blame he has in this. That'd be pretty unrealistic and yet many have gone with a petty harsh opinion about this for a while (and insults), which doesn't make much sense to me. But not really surprised, this is internet after all.

That's why I am saying both extremes (blindly defend or trash him) are pretty ridiculous positions.
 
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JD1

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A reasonable alternative would have been to move Turris at the TDL for picks. This was an obvious option. Dorion decided we were closer to contending 2 months prior to deciding to rebuild. It was a mistake and the mistake is on him.

I've kind of thought the primary mistake he made was retooling to have another run with Karlsson. The Melnyk / Karlsson relationship deteriorated rapidly that fall AND Karlsson was far from himself that season. I think the initial trade was made with good intent....the whole thing going to hell in a handcart after that trade is on a lot of guys including Melnyk, Karlsson, Anderson's sustained lousy play, Duchene's unproductive 20 game start, dressing room conflict. For sure PD shares some blame, but there was a lot of blame to go around for that shitshow
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Please stop with the crappy center thing
At the moment of the trade Duchene was 4g-6a-10p in 13 games and Turris 3g-6a-9p in 11 games
At the moment of the trade Duchene was a two time player for Team Canada in best on best events. There was no question then nor is there now that he was a big upgrade on Turris
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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The Stone trade was a disaster. I truly believe they tried everything to keep Duchene and Stone. Once EK and Duch were traded I think Stone was intent on leaving for LV and only LV.
Idk about the LV bit but I agree the Sens tried everything they could to keep Duchene and Stone
 

Alex1234

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Oct 14, 2014
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At the moment of the trade Duchene was a two time player for Team Canada in best on best events. There was no question then nor is there now that he was a big upgrade on Turris
...
 
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Nac Mac Feegle

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Jun 10, 2011
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I'd say this point of view stems from the position I was talking about which is that generally anything the team does, they should have done the opposite. Which is a view you frequently align with.

That team had a -2 goal differential iirc and lousy corsi. PD made some decent depth moves at the TDL that strengthened that team but at the same time we hit a bad injury bug and we weren't healthy. We didn't get healthy until the playoffs and the playoff team was far stronger than the team that put up the -2 goal differential. Kelly and Neil played all year and didn't play in the playoffs.

Some things that get said about that run: the Bruins were banged up on the rear end. Yes they were. But we went 4-0 against that Bruin team in the regular season. 8-2 on the season.

Anderson and unsustainable goaltending is cited here all the time. Andy posted a 922 save percentage. The other day I posted that 7 of the last 9 cup winning teams had better than 922 goaltending. Were they just lucky too? 922 is generally not good enough goaltending to win a cup. Some of those teams received MUCH better than 922 goaltending. Actually better goaltending might have stopped the off speed shot from Chris Kunitz.

No, it's not revisionist at all. We beat two teams in the playoffs and we deserved both series.


lol, it's definitely revisionist, no matter what you say. And so is your view of many of the posters here.
 
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